Green Party Transport Policy

OTK

Announced today
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/election_07/manifesto_2007

Following Victor's advice, please keep comments to the policies themselves rather than political discussion of the greens.

The Greens may get the transport ministry either with FF or FG so I'd say these policies may have more chance of seeing the light of day than the SF policies.

As with Sinn Féin I'm going to pick out the policies that stand out.

• provide Luas extensions to Finglas and Rathfarnham and Poolbeg
• extend the Metro north to Donabate and south from St Stephens Green to connect at Beechwood
• extend Metro West eastwards from Ballymun to Baldoyle
• build a light rail line running from Mahon to Ballincollig Galway Luas from Barna to the City centre and from there to Oranmore
• WRC from Sligo to Tralee
• rail freight subsidy
• 1/2/3 euro charging system for city bus services
• ensure all public buses and State vehicles run on bio-fuels
• upgrade and maintain existing road stock, where necessary providing bypasses, honour existing contracts
• Make road safety and environment priorities for the NRA
• Introduce variable tolling rates for time of day.

I would have thought they could have come up with something more loony than that. The implication of the roads policy is that money would be diverted from road to rail. This is probably the most controversial of their transport policies.

WRC to tralee from sligo does sound like DART to Dingle. I presume they want to reopen the rail line south west of Limerick for this.

Metro West is a bad project so I wouldn't want it extended. How many people want to get from Baldoyle to Ballymun by public transport and vice versa, compared to the numbers who would like to get into town and make a connection to somehwere else? Let's do the radials first.

I agree with the other policies.
What do you think?

loyatemu

I was expecting them to propose a network of hot-air balloon routes linking all parts of the country and free trainers for anyone who agrees to jog to work. Disappointing.

MarkoP11

No mention of Navan Dublin by rail, Labour didn't seem to be in much of hurry to mention it either

Edit its in the full version

markpb

I'm all for the extra Luas lines (though obviously I'd prefer metro) but I'm disappointed that their token bus ideas are limited to more & greener buses. All the buses in the world won't remove the fact that the city centre is a free for all with no real bus priority measures.

I'm still voting greens thought

Transport21 Fan

Now the WRC is going to Tralee. Only a matter if time before Innish Mor gets on the WRC at this rate.

Otherwise, I like most of what they are proposing. I would like to vote for them, but their stance on Nuclear Energy puts me right off them as for me it is linked to serious public transport development.

I was waiting to see what the Green's energy and transport policy was before I voted. Now that I have I won't be voting for them.

I am going to vote PDs - their transport policy is the one which I agree with the most. They have also given out signals that they are not anti Nuclear either which I feel is part and parcel of any major shift to public transport. Lots of electricty is needed and wind and wave "power" is a load of feel good rubbish - if we are going to start building light rail, metros, DARTS and eventually high-speed rail, we need Nuclear for all that.

Bards

OTK wrote:

Announced today
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/election_07/manifesto_2007[*]upgrade and maintain existing road stock, where necessary providing bypasses, honour existing contracts

according to Waterford's Green Party Spokesperson any contracts not already signed and under construction are under threat of being halted and funds diverted to public transport.

Therfore we will end up with a half finished Motorway Network. This is a big deal. The 5 Inter Urban Motorways must be finished before the greens get their hands on the transport portfolio.

OTK

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I am going to vote PDs - their transport policy is the one which I agree with the most.

Their policy is Transport21 and is the same as Fianna Fáil. But you are Transport21 Fan, so I guess that suits you. PD's also intend to build an outer ring road but Bertie has also said he would do this. To me this is a poor idea that will encourage more sprawl.

They also want to move Dublin Port. I agree with this as it would let more people live closer to the centre. The port tunnel could then be used for rail.

There is a problem with the transport policies of the PDs: They are enthusisatic supporters of One-off housing and have even advocated direct subsidies to people who choose one-offs over villages and towns. This is anti-public transport land use.

Navan Junction

MarkoP11 wrote:

No mention of Navan Dublin by rail, Labour didn't seem to be in much of hurry to mention it either

Edit its in the full version

Yep - and they have it down for immediate commencement which is a hell of a lot better than any other party.

I think the problem with all of these 'policies' is that the prioritise areas that they hope to get someone elected.

But I'm impressed by the efforts and commitments that the Green Party have made for Navan, considering that there is very little actual voter support for them in Meath in recent elections.

That does not seem to have dimished their interest in the county though.

In relation to Meath, anyone that knows anything about the Navan rail saga will vote for them in the bat of an eyelid.

However, without the machine needed on the ground in Meath to get their message out that may prove difficult.

Either way hats off to the Greens for their Navan rail policy. Now if we could just get the other parties to follow...............................

bryanw

OTK wrote:

PD's also intend to build an outer ring road but Bertie has also said he would do this. To me this is a poor idea that will encourage more sprawl.

They also want to move Dublin Port. I agree with this as it would let more people live closer to the centre. The port tunnel could then be used for rail.

There is a problem with the transport policies of the PDs: They are enthusisatic supporters of One-off housing and have even advocated direct subsidies to people who choose one-offs over villages and towns. This is anti-public transport land use.

I actually really like the PD's idea for Dublin Port. I would encourage a lot of high density development, very close to the city centre, without actually damaging the landscape of the rest of the city.

I think you'd have to be a right loon to vote for the Greens on Transport or Energy grounds. Firstly - no motorway network!

The Greens have no convincing policy on planning. They are opposed to urban sprawl. They are opposed to rural development. They are opposed to high-rise buildings. C'mon you can't have it everyway.

I like their rail ideas, but is there no such thing as heavy rail anymore, and why is there never a mention of improving the actual existing rail infrastructure by a significant amount. Improving track alignments, electrification, high-speed etc...

Mushy

Am liking that transport policy. Especially liking the bit regarding student travel cards. Get a free one and have the same benefits as others. Thats a big seller to me anyway

Transport21 Fan

OTK wrote:

PD's also intend to build an outer ring road but Bertie has also said he would do this. To me this is a poor idea that will encourage more sprawl.

I used to think that as well but I was talking to an NRA engineer at a do up here in Sligo and he made a lot of sense in explaining the rationale behind the OOM.

He said it would be like a central freight corridor from the new port at Bremore - would allow trucks which take freight at the new port to travel down the centre of the country and deliver freight to were the most demand is at the outskirts of towns and cities in business parks and shopping centers. It would take vast number of lorries out of urban and stuburban roads in every country. It would also result in a HGV-free Dublin city centre. But he stressed - it only work if Dublin port is moved to Bremore - it can't be a stand alone job. Apparently they going to stipulate in the proposal that land on either side of the OOM can't be zoned for residential use.

So when I looked at it that way I think it's a good idea.

Another thing was, even though this guy build roads for a living his number one transport project was the Rail Interconnector. To use his words "build the fecking thing yesterday!" He said that Dublin needs all the Metros, Dart and Luas that it can get. Which goes to show these NRA guys are not always the mindless tarmac junkies they are often made out to be.

bk

As an environmentalist, I really dislike the green party and their policies!!!

While well intentioned, many of their policies are actually bad for the environment.

A good example is their policy on the inter-urban motorway network. They want to stop it. But this won't mean people will stop driving, it will just mean that the cars and trucks will be stopped for longer in congested traffic, pumping out noxious fumes.

A good road network, in conjunction with a high quality public transport system actually reduces pollution. Just look at Germany and the Northern European countries, these are the most environmentally friendly countries in the world, yet, they all have superb road networks.

markpb

Transport21 Fan wrote:

It would also result in a HGV-free Dublin city centre. But he stressed - it only work if Dublin port is moved to Bremore - it can't be a stand alone job.

Unless the ORR finds some way to teleport goods from Bremore into all the shops in the city centre, I'd love to see how that would happen

To be honest, I like some of the PDs transport policies but they've been around for a long time and all we have to show for it are two Luas lines that are pretty much at capacity already (and without any easy way to upgrade it), some slightly longer Dart platforms but not enough Darts to take advantage of it (and a reduced Dart service to facilitate outer suburban services), no extra Dublin Buses (and no work on bus priority measures) and a much improved road network.

In Dublin terms we haven't even kept pace. They had the time and they had the money and didn't deliver and I'm wondering why things would change if they got back in.

bk wrote:

A good example is their policy on the inter-urban motorway network. They want to stop it. But this won't mean people will stop driving, it will just mean that the cars and trucks will be stopped for longer in congested traffic, pumping out noxious fumes.A good road network, in conjunction with a high quality public transport system actually reduces pollution.

I've heard this a lot over the last few weeks but I've never heard the Greens saying they wanted to cancel the roads/motorway work, just to balance out the way the money is spent.

mackerski

OTK wrote:

They also want to move Dublin Port. I agree with this as it would let more people live closer to the centre. The port tunnel could then be used for rail.

It runs from Santry to East Wall. How would this be useful?

The_Minister

Transport21 Fan wrote:

. Lots of electricty is needed and wind and wave "power" is a load of feel good rubbish - if we are going to start building light rail, metros, DARTS and eventually high-speed rail, we need Nuclear for all that.

Actually the PDs are big into wind. Fiona O'Malley (energy spokesperson) wants to turn the Irish into "the wind arabs of Europe), in that the wind on the West coast is harnessed and exported, then shortfalls made up for by importing when the wind doesn't blow.

OTK

Bards wrote:

according to Waterford's Green Party Spokesperson any contracts not already signed and under construction are under threat of being halted and funds diverted to public transport.

Therfore we will end up with a half finished Motorway Network. This is a big deal. The 5 Inter Urban Motorways must be finished before the greens get their hands on the transport portfolio.

Surely contracts have been signed on all the interurban motorways? Completion is only 3 years away.

Victor

OTK wrote:

Surely contracts have been signed on all the interurban motorways? Completion is only 3 years away.

**cough**

bryanw wrote:

The Greens have no convincing policy on planning. They are opposed to urban sprawl. They are opposed to rural development. They are opposed to high-rise buildings. C'mon you can't have it everyway.

Actually you can, 3- and 4-storey terraced houses and 4 to 8-storey apartments would do an awful lot. And thats what going into places like Adamstown.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

He said it would be like a central freight corridor from the new port at Bremore - would allow trucks which take freight at the new port to travel down the centre of the country and deliver freight to were the most demand is at the outskirts of towns and cities in business parks and shopping centers. It would take vast number of lorries out of urban and stuburban roads in every country. It would also result in a HGV-free Dublin city centre. But he stressed - it only work if Dublin port is moved to Bremore - it can't be a stand alone job.

Doesn't the Port Tunnel do most of that? And how does this motorway remove "out of urban and stuburban roads in every country[sic]"? How does a motorway in Meath remove traffic from a village in say Mayo?

Apparently they going to stipulate in the proposal that land on either side of the OOM can't be zoned for residential use.

lol

Another thing was, even though this guy build roads for a living his number one transport project was the Rail Interconnector. To use his words "build the fecking thing yesterday!" He said that Dublin needs all the Metros, Dart and Luas that it can get. Which goes to show these NRA guys are not always the mindless tarmac junkies they are often made out to be.

Its so they can then withdraw bus services to make space for more cars!

bk wrote:

A good example is their policy on the inter-urban motorway network. They want to stop it. But this won't mean people will stop driving, it will just mean that the cars and trucks will be stopped for longer in congested traffic, pumping out noxious fumes.

Traffic expands to fill the available road space.

A good road network, in conjunction with a high quality public transport system actually reduces pollution. Just look at Germany and the Northern European countries, these are the most environmentally friendly countries in the world, yet, they all have superb road networks.

Tell that to Nordic forests.

Metrobest

In relation to transport, you have to give the PDs the tick. Their policies strike a sensible balance between catering for demand on the roads, connecting urban populations by rail and a vision for a new heart for Dublin at Docklands.

Like everything the PDs do, their transport policies are rooted in practicality, and make economic as well as social sense.

The Greens, although their pro-public transport stance is welcome, still give me the impression of a party that's not mature enough to govern. A lot of what Eamon Ryan says is quite sensible; coming from the mainstream wing of that party, he'd be a much better leader to win votes than Trevor Sargeant, a man whose voice is so monotone and robotic it makes the luas ticket vending machine lady sound positively charismatic!

Victor wrote:

Tell that to Nordic forests.

Forests that can communicate with humans.. Those Norweigans think of everything!

Bards

OTK wrote:

Surely contracts have been signed on all the interurban motorways? Completion is only 3 years away.

I can only speak for the M9 .

Phase 1 & 2 are currently under construction

Phase 3 & 4 are due to go to tender later this year and be awarded December 2007, with construction starting 1st qtr 2008.

Therefore the Greens can righlty mess this up

Chris_533976

And if the Greens get in the Atlantic corridor will be stopped.... no new N18 builds (due to start next year but havent been signed)... and you can forget about the Cork - Limerick N20 which is currently in bits.

bryanw

Victor wrote:

**cough**
Actually you can, 3- and 4-storey terraced houses and 4 to 8-storey apartments would do an awful lot. And thats what going into places like Adamstown.

Isn't Adamstown technically urban sprawl (and places like it)? Of course 4-8 storey buildings are fine but it doesn't make that much difference if they're going to be built on the outskirts of the city. What we need are high density developments in the city itself, so that transport projects don't need to be huge, like building a Luas to Donegal because that's how far away people will be commuting from.

That's why the PD's "New Heart for Dublin" would be such a good idea. There is nothing wrong with high-rise buildings. High density can make large infrastructure projects much more cost effective. You can't really start knocking down existing low density areas in the inner city to build 4-8 storey developments. Move the port, where's there is lots of land and build as high a density as is practical. You solve plenty of problems without Dublin's older architecture needing to be affected.

OTK

bryanw wrote:

Isn't Adamstown technically urban sprawl (and places like it)? Of course 4-8 storey buildings are fine but it doesn't make that much difference if they're going to be built on the outskirts of the city. What we need are high density developments in the city itself, so that transport projects don't need to be huge, like building a Luas to Donegal because that's how far away people will be commuting from.

Adamstown is planned to house 25,000 people on 540 acres or 46 people to the acre. Typical Dublin sprawl is about 10 people per acre. You presented a false choice between high-rise buildings and sprawl, whereas low rise high density is feasible and under construction.

bryanw

But tell me what is the point of building these high density developments on the outskirts of the city?

bk

I'm not a big fan of the PD's but it is funny, for a party that is supposed to be pro business, calculating and cold hearted, their policies are actually far better for the environment then the Green Partys.

As others have mentioned, moving Dublin Port and turning it into a high rise/density Manhattan style development is pure genius and very positive for the environment.

markpb

bk wrote:

As others have mentioned, moving Dublin Port and turning it into a high rise/density Manhattan style development is pure genius and very positive for the environment.

Except that it's extremely unlikely to happen because
- residents in Balbriggan are, understandably, unhappy at the suggestion
- it throws away the existing infrastructure in the port area
- it forces huge change on the companies in the port
- it makes the DPP a waste of time and it (DPP) won't be much use for rail because it's duplicated by Dart (to the south-east) and Metro North (to the north-west)

So, safe in the sound that it'll never happen in the next five years, they can promise the earth and deliver nothing.

Zebra3

bryanw wrote:

But tell me what is the point of building these high density developments on the outskirts of the city?

Higher density in the suburbs (financially) justifies more frequent train/bus services for one.

markpb

Zebra3 wrote:

Higher density in the suburbs (financially) justifies more frequent train/bus services for one.

I think it's called making the best of a bad situation rather than a good idea by itself. It puts more pressure on an already jammed rail service, it puts more pressure on an already pressured bus service and will probably put people living closer to the city off those buses because they won't fit / won't be as reliable. It also has the unfortunate problem of the lack of capacity on the Luas to bring people the rest of the way into town.

A quick look at Dart.ie shows a massive four trains leaving Adamstown between 7 and 9. That's not exactly a quality rail service. Maynooth has a much better service and it's not even in Dublin.

bryanw

Adamstown was build on a green-field site.

Zebra3

markpb wrote:

I think it's called making the best of a bad situation rather than a good idea by itself. It puts more pressure on an already jammed rail service, it puts more pressure on an already pressured bus service and will probably put people living closer to the city off those buses because they won't fit / won't be as reliable. It also has the unfortunate problem of the lack of capacity on the Luas to bring people the rest of the way into town.

A quick look at Dart.ie shows a massive four trains leaving Adamstown between 7 and 9. That's not exactly a quality rail service. Maynooth has a much better service and it's not even in Dublin.

Well they are four tracking the line that goes through Adamstown so no doubt there will be a huge expansion in trains services and the high density of Adamstown can help justify it.

I always thought urban sprawl was low density housing with commuters car dependent. That's not what Adamstown is about.

Victor

I was merely giving Adamstown as an example, there are lots of other examples - proposals for around Heuston Station, North Docks, Grangegorman, Mountjoy Prison, etc.