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right to travel?

  • 01-05-2007 8:18am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    It seems like it doesn't pay to be dependant on the state. Someone said to me yesterday that it is ok for middleclass people to travel to the UK to have a termination if the unborn won't make it but if your somehow in the care of the state you have less rights apparently, good to see the class system is still going strong :-(
    I'll anticipate the mods here and say maybe not delve into the case in the high court at the moment but keep it general.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I'm surprised a thread hasn't been started on this already.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with necessarily discussing the case in question - nobody knows enough information to prejudice the case. Indeed, most of the media outlets are debating it today.

    At a glance, the HSE are only doing what they would normally do. Because the girl is in their care, they call the shots in the place of her parents. Naturally, they're going to make decisions based on the opinion of the state, and in this instance the opinion of that state is that the right to travel cannot be denied in cases where the mother is suicidal. It doesn't necessarily allow the right to travel for minors - indeed the constitution (and therefore the state) protects the right to life of the unborn. So I can see why the HSE have made this decision.

    But as I heard said this morning - "Hard cases make bad laws". In a typically Irish fashion, the Government plastered over the cracks of the X case and hoped it would all go away. They're all just too terrified of the electorate to touch the issue. Even the electorate themselves are quite evenly divided on the issue, so for a party or a minister to take a particular stance, they risk alienating half of their constituencies.

    Personally, this case is cut-and-dried for me. The potential emotional and physical trauma of giving birth to a child that's pretty much already dead is massive. Forcing someone to go through it is barbaric.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    seamus wrote:
    Forcing someone to go through it is barbaric.

    Couldn't agree more. My heart goes out to the poor girl and the emotional trauma she is going to have to endure for the foreseeable future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,437 ✭✭✭Crucifix


    What is needed to become a suicide risk? Evaluation? A threat? An attempt?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    seamus wrote:
    At a glance, the HSE are only doing what they would normally do. Because the girl is in their care, they call the shots in the place of her parents. Naturally, they're going to make decisions based on the opinion of the state, and in this instance the opinion of that state is that the right to travel cannot be denied in cases where the mother is suicidal. It doesn't necessarily allow the right to travel for minors - indeed the constitution (and therefore the state) protects the right to life of the unborn. So I can see why the HSE have made this decision.

    What is ironic for me is that we are awaiting a test to determine the same condition (1/25 risk) and the midwife in the dublin hospital explained that we have the right to leave the state, they will give us all the info we need and will look after us when we get back.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    silverharp wrote:
    It seems like it doesn't pay to be dependant on the state. Someone said to me yesterday that it is ok for middleclass people to travel to the UK to have a termination if the unborn won't make it but if your somehow in the care of the state you have less rights apparently, good to see the class system is still going strong :-(

    Are you saying that the State refuses to allow those 'somehow in its care' to travel, or refuses to pay for it?

    If being 'somehow in State care' normally carries a travel restriction (e.g. being in prison), I don't see the problem.

    If being 'somehow in State care' means that the state would have to pay for you to do this, I also don't see it as any failing on the part of the State to refuse.

    On the other hand, if neither of those conditions are met, I don't see what grounds the State would have to say 'sure, you can go to England to watch a match of footie, but if you go for an abortion you're in trouble'.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Are the HSE effectively acting as this girls parents in this case?


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Keenan Helpful Wig


    Wicknight wrote:
    Are the HSE effectively acting as this girls parents in this case?
    Seems to be, yeah


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    She ought to be able to have the abortion here imo - it's ridiculous that she has to go abroad. Whatever one's views on abortion of viable foetuses, surely no one would want to force this girl to carry on to term?

    As others have said, there should already be legislation for this sort of case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭Dontico


    If the child will be alive for 3 days, there is a chance it may live a little bit longer. My view is that the pregnancy should go ahead.

    As some asked before, is she being restricted to travel, or is the state just not paying for it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Dontico wrote:
    If the child will be alive for 3 days, there is a chance it may live a little bit longer. My view is that the pregnancy should go ahead.

    As some asked before, is she being restricted to travel, or is the state just not paying for it?

    I think the HSE are telling the Gardai to not let her leave the country


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  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Keenan Helpful Wig


    Dontico wrote:
    If the child will be alive for 3 days, there is a chance it may live a little bit longer. My view is that the pregnancy should go ahead.

    As some asked before, is she being restricted to travel, or is the state just not paying for it?
    The news said it had anencephaly.
    Anencephaly is a cephalic disorder that results from a neural tube defect that occurs when the cephalic (head) end of the neural tube fails to close, usually between the 23rd and 26th day of pregnancy, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp. Infants with this disorder are born without a forebrain, the largest part of the brain consisting mainly of the cerebral hemispheres (which include the isocortex, which is responsible for higher level cognition, i.e., thinking). The remaining brain tissue is often exposed - not covered by bone or skin.
    wiki.
    You want THAT to go ahead?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    bluewolf wrote:
    The news said it had anencephaly.


    wiki.
    You want THAT to go ahead?
    Talk about Cruel and unusual. I am pro choice anyway but to refuse an abortion or preventing the girl from travelling to get one, in this case is verging on the rediculus.

    MrP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 388 ✭✭da_deadman


    seamus wrote:
    this case is cut-and-dried for me. The potential emotional and physical trauma of giving birth to a child that's pretty much already dead is massive. Forcing someone to go through it is barbaric.

    I completely agree with this. I've been trying to think of any justifiable reasons for preventing the girl in this case from going abroad but I can't think of any. It apears to me to be a cruel sort of punishment for the girl.

    seamus wrote:
    But as I heard said this morning - "Hard cases make bad laws". In a typically Irish fashion, the Government plastered over the cracks of the X case and hoped it would all go away. They're all just too terrified of the electorate to touch the issue. Even the electorate themselves are quite evenly divided on the issue, so for a party or a minister to take a particular stance, they risk alienating half of their constituencies.

    In the event of any politicians calling to my door looking for a vote, then this issue is something I would like to discuss with them. I guess it's not going to feature as a part of their policies but I'd like to hear their opinions.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Keenan Helpful Wig


    da_deadman wrote:
    I completely agree with this. I've been trying to think of any justifiable reasons for preventing the girl in this case from going abroad but I can't think of any. It apears to me to be a cruel sort of punishment for the girl.




    In the event of any politicians calling to my door looking for a vote, then this issue is something I would like to discuss with them. I guess it's not going to feature as a part of their policies but I'd like to hear their opinions.

    RTE reported Labour's guy - rabbitte, is it? - as saying she should of course be allowed to travel over. The other parties said "what a sad and human case" :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Nasty_Girl


    You gotta love this country,

    They will hock and fart about it for the next five months, hiring lawyers left right and centre, she'll have the baby, the poor thing will die and they'll just forget all about it.

    Meanwhile the health service is falling down around their ears and murderers and rapists wander free in society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭Brooklyn74


    The case is being heard in the High Court tomorrow at 11. Choice Ireland have called a solidarity demo at the Four Courts starting at 10.30 and then a rally on Saturday at noon at the GPO to address the wider issue of the need for a change in the laws. Hope people can make it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    How is this about abortion?

    Isnt this more about the state violating a private citiizens right to cross borders and leave the country?

    So now this poor girl is stuck in ireland with a second rate health care system and has to go through this tragedy under the supervision of the HSE?

    Someone should call a human rights organisation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Isnt this more about the state violating a private citiizens right to cross borders and leave the country?
    Technically the state isn't though. Every private citizen has the right to travel, but if they're under 18, they don't have the right to make that decision for themselves.

    In the absence of a legal guardian, the HSE is the legal guardian, and have made this decision. It is 100% identical to the same situation where parents prevents the child from leaving.

    The case is challenging the HSE on their decision, not suing the state or challenging the state on the right to travel. That's not in question.


This discussion has been closed.
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