What about philosophy?

SamHamilton

Hello!
I'm doing the leaving cert and intend to study in Trinity next year. I've looked through all (well most of:D ) the threads and can't find anything on philosophy. What's it like? And would studying philosophy and english be considered career suicide?
Any information would be great.

Dave3x

I'm studying English and Philosophy, at the end of second year.

Philosophy was really interesting for a number of weeks, but it's one of those subjects that you shouldn't just do for the hell of it. In other words, if you're second-guessing your interest in philosophy for four years, don't do it.

English, on the other hand, I can wholeheartedly recommend. As for careers, your degree would qualify you for nothing. I took philosophy because of my interest in writing and I believed it would help improve my critical thinking and logical skills. As it turned out, it hasn't.

Basically, I'm enjoying my course in English ("here's a great book. Go read it and come back and tell us what you think") yet would not recommend you do philosophy unless you're sure. That said, the (minority?) who enjoy it REALLY enjoy it. Career-wise, my work with the college newspaper is worth a thousand times more than my degree.

Newb

Dave3x wrote:

I'm studying English and Philosophy, at the end of second year.

Philosophy was really interesting for a number of weeks, but it's one of those subjects that you shouldn't just do for the hell of it. In other words, if you're second-guessing your interest in philosophy for four years, don't do it.

English, on the other hand, I can wholeheartedly recommend. As for careers, your degree would qualify you for nothing. I took philosophy because of my interest in writing and I believed it would help improve my critical thinking and logical skills. As it turned out, it hasn't.

Basically, I'm enjoying my course in English ("here's a great book. Go read it and come back and tell us what you think") yet would not recommend you do philosophy unless you're sure. That said, the (minority?) who enjoy it REALLY enjoy it. Career-wise, my work with the college newspaper is worth a thousand times more than my degree.

If it is any consolation, I got into a discussion with a philosophical graduate once and he handed me my ass on a plate within a few minutes. :mad:

Andrew 83

Dave3x wrote:

Career-wise, my work with the college newspaper is worth a thousand times more than my degree.

While it is definitely worth a lot more than just having a degree I don't think it's true to say it's a thousand times more useful. A degree in English will show literacy while a degree generally shows ability. A good degree in addition to good experience would be better help than just good experience.

Stargal

Newb wrote:

If it is any consolation, I got into a discussion with a philosophical graduate once and he handed me my ass on a plate within a few minutes. :mad:

I've always found the exact opposite; they trip themselves up on the theoretical and completely ignore the practical side of things.

Time Magazine

Laika wrote:

I've always found the exact opposite; they trip themselves up on the theoretical and completely ignore the practical side of things.

Much like sociologists tbh

Andrew 83

Ibid wrote:

Much like sociologists tbh

Coming from an economist

Stargal

Ibid wrote:

Much like sociologists tbh

Only the bad ones...

claire h

SamHamilton wrote:

And would studying philosophy and english be considered career suicide?

Yes, but welcome to the world of arts degrees.

SamHamilton

Thanks! I was thinking about English and French but after reading about the French department...:eek: I thought 'philosophy? Why not?!':D But maybe I'll just stick with the French and I'm sure that at some stage we'll be reading Camus, Sartre, etc. anyway.

Stargal

Unless the course has changed (and it may have!), you do some Sartre (Huis Clos) and Camus in first year, so probably more in later years.

ApeXaviour

I've always found it exceptionately difficult to strike up a conversation with philosophy people when we know what eachother studies (me=physics btw)

They'd consider my viewpoint narrow, I'd consider their's ludicrous. I do find it funny when they talk about entropy/disorder or time-travel though

John

What about philosophy indeed! What about philosophy? What about philosophy? Why philosophise? It was Immanuel Kant who said that "All the interests of my reason, speculative as well as practical, combine in the three following questions: 1. What can I know? 2. What ought I to do? 3. What may I hope?" and this begs the questions:
1. How can we know?
2. Ought we do anything?
3. Ought we hope?

On the first question we look to Wittgenstein's famous quote: "A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push" which suggests that to know, we must be aware of how doors work. This is a fundamental flaw in so called "common sense" where even the most intelligent fail to operate a door correctly as Larsen puts it so succinctly in his untitled masterwork:


This brings us to the second question concerning whether we ought to do something or not. The answer to this one is obvious, we ought to do something or else boredom will set in. Bacon identified this need to ought to do something, "A man must make his opportunity, as oft as find it", and indeed he did a lot. He even got born again and became a painter as one lifetime was not enough for him.

Finally, our third inquisition is a little more challenging. Hope is usually accompanied by chance, you hope something will happen and it is up to the fates as to whether it does or not. Again, Bacon observed this too: "Fortune is like the market, where, many times, if you can stay a little, the price will fall." However, this quote makes no sense in this context so it will be ignored. Instead we should concentrate on his "Hope is a good breakfast, but it is a bad supper" quotation which is far more apt. Comparing this pessimistic view with Carlyle's "A strong mind always hopes, and has always cause to hope" obviously highlights how difficult this question is. As usual, Nietzsche settles the argument, "Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."

In conclusion, Libya is a land of contrast.

I could so do philosophy

King.Penguin

I find it suspicious that you seem to have selected your college first and your course second. Why so? Are the other universities inaccessible? DCU doesn't really do Humanities so presumably you can't get as far as ucd or maynooth.

Steve01

My inner Arts student is craving to do Philosophy and English in Trinity next year. Unfortunately my common sense knows better :rolleyes: Also my family would probably disown me if I went for it!

PHB

Anyone who says you can't get a good job out of a degree in English or Philosophy is just stupid.

If you walk out of that degree with a 1st from Trinity, you will walk into most jobs, and the people from business courses won't have any real advantage over you. Applying for the cool companies like say McKinsey, you'll be in with just as a good as a shot as anybody.
Don't think about your career when picking a course, unless you want to be something specific like a doctor or something.
Just do what sounds interesting, cause you've to do it for four years of your life.

Time Magazine

PHB wrote:

If you walk out of that degree with a 1st from Trinity, you will walk into most jobs, and the people from business courses won't have any real advantage over you.

That's just not true. Are you saying there're no advantages of doing Business over Arts?

Then why are the employment rates for BESS grads substantially higher than in Arts?

Certainly, some people are hireable just because they got the l33t skillz to work in the business world; but to say Philosophy is as hireable as Business really is pushing to PHB School of Estimation to John O'Shea levels of quality.

Dave3x

PHB wrote:

Anyone who says you can't get a good job out of a degree in English or Philosophy is just stupid.

If you walk out of that degree with a 1st from Trinity, you will walk into most jobs, and the people from business courses won't have any real advantage over you. Applying for the cool companies like say McKinsey, you'll be in with just as a good as a shot as anybody.
Don't think about your career when picking a course, unless you want to be something specific like a doctor or something.
Just do what sounds interesting, cause you've to do it for four years of your life.

Well... it doesn't qualify you IN anything is the point. While having a primary degree of some sort and being intelligent is what gets you a job, the point is that it doesn't train you for anything.

But, as you say, pick something that interests you. I know far too many people who dropped out in first year because they made a mistake in choosing what their parents wanted them to do/ what they thought they should do.

An Andrew, ok, I didn't mean literally one thousand times more....

Stargal

Ibid wrote:

... but to say Philosophy is as hireable as Business really is pushing to PHB School of Estimation to John O'Shea levels of quality.

Nice

PHB

Hey, my estimation for turnout was a lot closer than anybody elses.

Then why are the employment rates for BESS grads substantially higher than in Arts?

Certainly, some people are hireable just because they got the l33t skillz to work in the business world; but to say Philosophy is as hireable as Business really is pushing to PHB School of Estimation to John O'Shea levels of quality.

Because they all go for the jobs. If you are smart enough to get a job, you'll get it. What degree you did has little relevence.

I know lots of people who got 1sts in BESS, who got creamed by guys who did ARTS courses when applying for the big companies like McKinsey etc.

An arts course is an arts course.

Unless you are looking to do something specific within BESS, like say Accounting, in terms of general career opportunies, you're the same as anyone else in an arts course.

the point is that it doesn't train you for anything.

Actually it does. Most arts courses train you problem solving techniques which are incredibly employable. All you have to do is show that you've learnt these techniques, and you are sorted.

btw, over half of the CEO's of fortune 500 companies did history in college.

PHB

PHB wrote:

Hey, my estimation for turnout was a lot closer than anybody elses.



Because they all go for the jobs. If you are smart enough to get a job, you'll get it. What degree you did has little relevence.

I know lots of people who got 1sts in BESS, who got creamed by guys who did ARTS courses when applying for the big companies like McKinsey etc.

An arts course is an arts course.

Unless you are looking to do something specific within BESS, like say Accounting, in terms of general career opportunies, you're the same as anyone else in an arts course.



Actually it does. Most arts courses train you problem solving techniques which are incredibly employable. All you have to do is show that you've learnt these techniques, and you are sorted.

btw, over half of the CEO's of fortune 500 companies did history in college.

Just a point; Consultants don't like to hire people with just a BA in 'Business'

They like to see other skills (Logic, Quants, whatever) and then send you to learn the business side in a grad school.

Sparks

PHB wrote:

btw, over half of the CEO's of fortune 500 companies did history in college.

Bearing in mind the cultural change that colleges have gone through in the past decade or two, the question of how long ago those CEOs did their degree is one that might scupper your argument...

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

Bearing in mind the cultural change that colleges have gone through in the past decade or two, the question of how long ago those CEOs did their degree is one that might scupper your argument...

Good point - also, the application process has now changed considerably.

You now need a good degree to just get in the door of a firm, and then you do their on 'in house' (read purchased) tests that are psychometrically* designed to test your appitude to the career which you are focusing on.

On a point as well, when I was going through the interview process most other canidates were either Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, UCD or Trinity.. for example there was no one from outside of Dublin in the Goldman Sachs interview and they lumped TCD / UCD in with Oxbridge for the finals.
So the name of your college and its associated rep does count.


*These seem to be identical to a maths exam...

SamHamilton

I find it suspicious that you seem to have selected your college first and your course second.

I know I want to study Arts and I feel Trinity offers the best Arts course. In NUIG or UCD you study four subjects in first year and then two in 2nd and 3rd year and I find that a bit off-putting. I'd prefer a more specialised degree, studying two subjects for 3, 4 years - hence Trinity. I think it would open more doors if I chose to do any postgraduate study, lecturing etc.

griffdaddy

SamHamilton wrote:

I know I want to study Arts and I feel Trinity offers the best Arts course. In NUIG or UCD you study four subjects in first year and then two in 2nd and 3rd year and I find that a bit off-putting. I'd prefer a more specialised degree, studying two subjects for 3, 4 years - hence Trinity. I think it would open more doors if I chose to do any postgraduate study, lecturing etc.

In UCD you usually do three in first year, not four. I'm pretty sure you can just do two in first year as well. If you're not sure exactly what you wanna do, I'd go for arts in UCD, you can take modules in anything from the whole university and get a taste of it, or you can study your main subjects to a greater depth. I did French for about 15 minutes in first year, went into my first lecture and they had all the people involved in the department lined up and basically told us what cúnts they were going to be and that they were stricter than every other department. Seeing as I didn't want to be part of some kind of Dublin 4 take on Le Háine, I left the lecture, found a computer and changed my French 'taster' modules to philosophy. Glad I did, I kept it up for second year and now I love it. To be honest, people who make Arts degrees out as almost counter-productive are full of shít, just do whatever you want. You'll spend most of your time in the Pav or sun-bathing outside O'Reilly hall anyway.

ApeXaviour

As a philosopher, expect to suffer from sudden attacks of excessive recursive self-introspection (ERSI)




/not being helpful

Tacitha

All other things being equal - and they aren't - I'd choose Trinity for arts over any university in the country on the basis of the library.

Dave3x

I've heard many and varied extremely bad things about the UCD Horizons (modules) program from everyone I know in UCD. Med students being forced to take history or some such because of timetable restrictions and other such.

I've heard that as well.. from both staff and students.

griffdaddy

i dunno where that's coming from to be honest, people in certain faculties have priority over modules in that faculty. the only time that something like that could occur is if they left it really late to choose. there's also ways to ensure that you get whatever module you want in your faculty but it would take a lot of explaining, so meh.