Issues concerning possessing an Irish fake ID

Man Down

Hi guys.

A mate of mine recently 'acquired' herself a fake ID in the form of a printed up provisional driving licence.

I'm just curious what the potential consequences this may have on her if she is caught? Say for example in a hypothetical if she goes to the door of a nightclub and a bouncer refueses her admission, can he call the gardaí and have her arrested for it? And what exactly would the charge be?

Also, if after closing time or at any stage during the night when you are walking through the town or city center, can a gaurd demand you to empty your pockets or open your wallet/purse etc..? I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to unless they have reasonable suspicion but if performing a random search my friends ID was found by a guard it would be very unlucky and unfortunate indeed.

Just curious about this, she asked me to do some scoping on the web..

burnedfaceman

I have previously worked on a door, bouncers have to do security course and know all about how to spot fake ids, have the right to hold onto fake ones too as far as i remember.. it all depends on the club you are trying to get into usually the bouncer has made up his mind before even looked at ID. I dont think guards are in the business of stopping and searching people randomly but if they did they are well within rights to seize fake ID and you may be charged for possession of a forged Govt. ID

Robbo

The Criminal Law (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 is "her" friend. She can have her pick of Forgery (unlimited fine and 10 years in the big house), or Using a False Instrument (same maximum penalties).

Of course the most likely outcome is that a bouncer will just confiscate it if he thinks it's dodgy and send your "friend" on her way.

blow69

What will most likely happen is the bouncers will tell you to get lost and give you back the card.the police can't search you without some sort of a warrant.

sternn

It happened to my friend about two years ago, he was caught with a fake id.

He was brought to the station and parents were brought in etc...etc... He had to say where he got it from, and after that, he got a court summons a cuple of months later. He had a liason officer for a year, who did random checks etc...not too sure of the details. He wasnt put in jail or nethin, dont even think he got a fine. Was just warned (because it was his first offence) and that was that.
He is 18 now so there's no problem!

ChRoMe

blow69 wrote:

the police can't search you without some sort of a warrant.

WTF?? where on earth did you get that idea?

A Guard can search you even if they just feel like it.

Catari Jaguar

ChRoMe wrote:

WTF?? where on earth did you get that idea?

A Guard can search you even if they just feel like it.

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

Gran Hermano

Last I heard once they have reason to believe that drugs are involved
they can go where they want and search whatever they want.
A great excuse for them to do as they like... all they have to say
is they thought they saw some suspicious substance in her handbag
or she looked under the influence of some narcotic.. And refusal
to show what's in your bag/wallet/purse could be seen as you
obviously having something to hide and therefore reasonable grounds
to search. Damned if you do and damned if you don't!

So don't think the police cant check your handbag for no reason.
And wouldn't it be a pity if whilst checking the happened upon the
fake ID.

shane86

Cant believe a bouncer could be arsed reporting it unless the person gave him cheek after being refused. Id a load of fake IDs when I was younger. Places that didnt care would let you in, and some older or foreign bar/offy staff would pass them too.

Best refusal I ever saw was at 21s door one night a while back. Nice blonde one, southside, comes up with what presumably was her sisters Garda ID

Bouncer "Hmm, Sarah O`Reilly.....whats your date of birth Sarah"
Girl (confident as you like) "8th of October 1986"
Bouncer" You know, you have gorgeous brown eyes"
Girl (thinking shes playing a bouncer on the horn) "Ah thanks very much, your not bad yourself"
Bouncer "Yeah.....the girl in this photo has blue eyes. On your bike"

As I waved in behind her she started protesting she was wearing contacts, dunno if she got in but good instant excuse to come up with

TJJP

burnedfaceman wrote:

I have previously worked on a door, bouncers have to do security course and know all about how to spot fake ids, have the right to hold onto fake ones too as far as i remember.

Robbo wrote:

Of course the most likely outcome is that a bouncer will just confiscate it if he thinks it's dodgy and send your "friend" on her way.

Weird, most of the questions here are related to the rights or wrongs of Gardai actions, yet nobody blinks an eyelid when two posters suggest that door staff 'have the right' to 'confiscate' items from punters.

Jaysus, someone call the Private Security Authority (PSA) quick.

cson

Right, my experiences on this are;

If you are under 18 years of age the Gardai cannot search your person without the consent of your parents/guardian.

First-hand experience of the law: Myself and 3 mates came out of Croke Aprk after the all-ireland club finals last year. We'd won and made a beeline for the nearest pub which happened to be Quinns.

Now 2 of my mates had scanned one of their parents driving licences and messed about with them on the computer so that it fitted them. I don't know why Quinns had bouncers on the door as this was 3pm and AFAIK they cannot refuse you entry before 9pm.

Well we went in pairs, myself and my other mate, and the two with the fake licences. We got stopped and said we hadn't ID but our parents were inside, got in no problem. The two others.... well one got asked and one just walked straight in.

Bouncer took the fake licence off my mate, obviously recognised it for what it was and took it straight to the guards who were standing no more than 10 feet away. Didn't think it'd be a major biggie myself so I came out saw the guards having a chat with him, thinking it'd just be a strong word and he'd be on his merry way I went into the Centra next door for a coke.

Came out, mate in the back of a patrol car, took off up the street with the sirens on. Turns out forging a government document is quite a serious offence. He was held and questioned for 2 hours. Luckily one of us was 18 and could sign him out. He had one of those juvenile records that stay until your 18 and had a liason officer visit him a few times.

So morale of the story, do not forge a govt document.

beans

AFAIK they cannot refuse you entry before 9pm

This true? Doesn't sound right, surely door staff could refuse you any time they want. Anyone?

faceman

Lil Kitten wrote:

Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

what a load of bull on that site:

wrote:

It is often said that 'If a Garda asks you for your name and address, you must give it to him'.
I've heard a lot of people say it and I hear activists say it to eachother with full conviction. I've heard cops and legal people say it. The ICCL even advise it.

It’s bull****, it’s a lie and we've got to get that into our heads. If you believe it's true then you must obviously have knowledge of the relevant provision in law, and please post it here as a comment, with ’chapter and verse’ please, if you do.

sites like that should just be taken down.

ChRoMe

Lil Kitten wrote:

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

Im taking from that idealisitc post that you dont have much experience of dealing with the Guards (that and using a indymedia link as your evidence!). If you refuse they will just make you do it (and usually give you a slap for being smart).

Its that simple.

Anti

By friend, you obvious mean yoreself......

Nice try at covering up, but you aint foooling me that easy !!!

Kernel

Lil Kitten wrote:

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

Meh, rubbish tbh. Reasonable suspicion of crime = search.

5starpool

#Elites wrote:

indymedia is a pile of ****e anyway :rolleyes: its more of a "we hate the Garda/state" site.

I have no idea if there is a mayday march today as I haven't heard, but they might get another chance to use their honed sense of moral outrage again if the hippies get out of line today.

HelterSkelter

Lil Kitten wrote:

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

Not allowed and not doing are two entirely different things!

Gran Hermano

Lil Kitten wrote:

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

Ahh the innocence of youth... all they need is suspicion and as I said
you refusing gives them more than enough suspicion for an Irish judge.
And telling them that you read your rights on Indymedia... well you're
just asking for more trouble!
Fair? No
Reality? Yes

Ruen

burnedfaceman wrote:

I have previously worked on a door, bouncers have to do security course and know all about how to spot fake ids, have the right to hold onto fake ones too as far as i remember

I'm not a bouncer, but does that mean I can still confiscate stuff off people?

HammerHeadGym

burnedfaceman wrote:

...know all about how to spot fake ids...

This is utter nonsence, the only people, by law, qualified to dtermine the authenticity of an i.d. are Gardai, Immigration officers and some branch of the court whose name I forget.

The bouncer can call a gard if he suspects an i.d. is fake however.

HammerHeadGym

Man Down wrote:

...I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to unless they have reasonable suspicion...

Nah, that's an American thing. A gard can request i.d from anyone on a licensed premesis at any time.

HammerHeadGym

beans wrote:

This true? Doesn't sound right, surely door staff could refuse you any time they want. Anyone?

Nope. Management, or an agent acting on behalf of management (a bouncer, for instance) has the right to refuse admission to anyone, at any time.

Wertz

Lil Kitten wrote:

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

Can I come and live in your version of Ireland please?
You'll find the gardaí will use the misuse of drugs act or the public order act as a coverall for searches of property or for control of people....same way as they'll use the offences against the state act as a coverall in any sort of gun crime.
The only thing they need a warrant for is to search a premises...your vehicle and your person are fair game, once they have "reasonable suspicion", which generally equates to not liking the look of you.

Ruen

You're dead right, a bouncer or any private citizen for that matter is in no position to determine the legal authenticity of an official document.
I'm amazed most people havent mentioned the guy who was a bouncer and thinks they have the legal authority to confiscate your possessions:rolleyes:

Crumble Froo

under 18s are legally allowed in a licenced premises until 9pm, but, as far as i know, if the owners of the place want to check ID at the door as a means to make sure u18s dont end up buying drink on their premises, then they are entitled to.

jimi_t

narco wrote:

under 18s are legally allowed in a licenced premises until 9pm, but, as far as i know, if the owners of the place want to check ID at the door as a means to make sure u18s dont end up buying drink on their premises, then they are entitled to.

Regardless of that, all licenced premises reserve the right to refuse admission. They don't have to give a reason.

PHB

I'm pretty simple really.

If a Bouncer thinks your ID is fake, he has no technical right to take it. That said, if he does, and you report it, you get done for having a fake ID.

However, this can lead to funny situations, where bouncers are sure that the ID's are fake, and procede to rip them up.
A friend of mine had his actual driving liencence ripped up by a bouncer. Needless to say, he got in a bit of hassle for that, and eventually got fired :P

As for the Guards and search powers, the issue of reasonableness is what it's all about, and it will depend on what judge you get.

RoundyMooney

some hippy wrote:

A garda’s fingers are generally believed to be about 25mm in diameter and covered in fur.

Gotta love Indymedia:rolleyes:

Caliden

They usually threaten the holder with a fine and possible court charge, unless of course she tells them where she got it...

burnedfaceman

were i worked there was a lot of under 18s trying to enter on forged IDs, the local garda sergeant had requested us to confiscate any suspect ids and forward them to his station... if people had a problem with that they could go pick their ID up from the garda station near the club.

determining if an ID is quite easy once put under UV light as scanned and altered documents do not have relevant watermarks etc.

HammerHeadGym

burnedfaceman wrote:

...determining if an ID is quite easy once put under UV light as scanned and altered documents do not have relevant watermarks etc...

True, but legally only the aforementioned people can determine if an i.d. is fake or not.

ANarcho-Munk

What if the ID isn't fake at all but happens to belong to some one that looks like you? i.e an older brother or sister.

Charges would be a lot less if caught, non seeming as it isn't forged?

faceman

:eek: My mate just reported this thread to the gardai for the buzz!!

Mellor

HammerHeadGym wrote:

True, but legally only the aforementioned people can determine if an i.d. is fake or not.

Anyone who knows how determine if an ID is fake, most are easy to pick out.
But only the aforementioned people could certify a document being fake.
If a bouncer thinks its fake, he can't take it from you or rip it, but he can refuse to let you in based on this and you can do nothing, real or fake

Patricide

haha, this thread is priceless. Simply put wost case scenario your freind will get done for forging a government document...Dont gotta be a law student to know that one.

The more than likely scenario though is that the bouncer takes the id and forwards it to the guards who generally keep onto them for a while before they destroy them although iirc they HAVE to keep onto garda i.d.s The gardai have WAY more pressing concerns than trying to track down some 17 year old that is trying to hit the pubs.

Mellor

faceman wrote:

:eek: My mate just reported this thread to the gardai for the buzz!!

wtf?
what sort of buzz could you get from reporting this thread, or from pretending that someone did, which ever is the case.

Dave!

Lots of conflicting information here......

DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY KNOW THE ANSWER???

I would suggest the OP goes to the Legal Discussion forum, they're a smart bunch in there.......

On a related note, I had a provisional drivers licence when I was 16 or 17. I was born in 88, so I did a deadly job of "altering" the licence. Got some tip-ex, some ink, a sewing needle, and a magnifying glass with a light on it. Really went to work on it changing it to 86, and ended up with an absolutely class looking finished product Think I only got refused once when I was underage, and they never even looked at my iD (Fitzsimons bouncers are c*nts -- FACT). When I was "of age", I just grabbed a cotton bud and warm water, and off the stuff came

Highly recommended tactic there I did it for one of my friends who was born in 87, and they got into 1 or 2 places but ended up with a bouncer just scraping it off with his nail.

phantom_lord

Mellor wrote:

wtf?
what sort of buzz could you get from reporting this thread, or from pretending that someone did, which ever is the case.

a deadly one!

... ehm? Nothing illegal was said in this thread, so what possible interest would they have?

Yeah, under 18's are allowed within the premise of a pub until 9pm.

Tim131

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under[/URL]

Where are you from mate? The Gardai can pull you over and search you wherever/whenever they feel like, They don't have to provide you with law they are acting under, have you never been stopped by the Gaurds with a bag full of tins? they ask "whats in the bag?" theres no point in lieing, as they're gonna check anyway, my experience is if your gonna get caught anyway, tell em the truth, I told a two Gardai bray that I was 17, so were my other mates, and there were about 20 or so tins in the bag and they told us not to have em outside and sent us on our way.

I think you could be watching to much cops on camera programs on bravo mate, you're probably thinkin of the UK (excluding Scotland - as they have different laws on public consumtion of alcohol, theyre similar to Ireland, they can check you're bag when ever they feel like.)

I've been cautioned by the Metro polition police in London for being "drunk & dissorderly" - they dont know the meaning of those words they had to say, "I'm searching you under the somethingsomething act of '97" but thats only the UK, not Ireland.

NI is a differnet story, if they think you're drinkin underge, they wont ask they'll throw

connundrum

cson wrote: »

I don't know why Quinns had bouncers on the door as this was 3pm and AFAIK they cannot refuse you entry before 9pm.

Just to clear this up - if it is a private, licensed premises, then management can control the incoming crowd in whatever manner they deem necessary i.e. by only opening doors between 7pm and 8pm, or by having doormen from 12pm onwards. Their premises, their rules.

Ponster

I was halfway down the first page before I realised that I had read this all before !


CARD

afatbollix

funny thing happened me mate on new years eve... went to a club and my mate dident get in.. the bouncer said that he had all ready seen these id cards tonight ( one was a black id and the other was a college id)my mate said no you dident... so the bouncer pushed him out of the way and kept his ids... went back to say you kept my ids but said he wouldent give them back... anyway it ended up me ringing the gards and as it was 11:45 they dident want to send a car down... so i said we will come in in teh morning.. bouncer dident hand them in... took 3 weeks for them to be found... fooking ****...

worst thing was we couldent get into any of teh pubs as he dident have any id any more

Dave!

Did anything happen to the bouncer? Did he apologise? Did ye say anything to the manager?

phasers

I want one purely for cinema discounts, I'm sixteen and the b*stards charge me a tenner a ticket!

I'm entitled to an ID but my school doesn't do them

jb91

phasers wrote: »

I want one purely for cinema discounts, I'm sixteen and the b*stards charge me a tenner a ticket!

That happened to me a few weeks ago!! I chanced paying a child fare getting on the bus and the guy wouldn't take it and then going into the cinema they asked my DOB and star sign before they let me into a 16 cert film :rolleyes: