Loneliness and shyness

First of all, I just wanted to say I've finally done it. On March 16th last I moved back to Dublin like I always wanted to do. Got a job in Fairview and a room in a house in Drumcondra. So far things are going well, better than they were in Kerry, despite a few hiccups like not being able to wash clothes properly to save my life lol. Most of the problems I had there have been ironed out (no pun intended) by moving. But one of the big ones, loneliness, still remains.

It's a chicken and egg scenario. Basically, I want to be sociable, have friends and maybe even fall in love but I'm also a very solitary person. I do have two friends, one in Ballyfermot and another in Castleknock but don't get to see them very often - busy lives and the like. The former is an old school friend while the latter I met online, hence breaking the ice, it seems to be the only way I can meet people nowadays... I know some of you will say that's sad though. I live in a shared house with 6 others and rarely enter the communal areas, prefering to stay in my own "sanctuary." In fairness I get on grand with the other housemates - though I rarely speak without being spoken to, the exception being a "heya" when I see them.

There's only so much you can do on your own and inside I scream for someone to be with, be it friends or otherwise. I see couples walking down the street and it makes me feel sick and unattractive inside (though I've been told I'm not a bad looking fella so I know that's not the issue anymore). However, part of me is *extremely* shy at times so that's a serious barrier when trying to meet someone new, I find it impossible to maintain eye contact with anyone, not even family. The only exception is one of my friends, she's so easy going I feel comfortable around her.
On the rare occasions I'd go out socialising with one of my mentioned friends I'd never approach a girl I'm interested in, to me they're either in a group (absolute no-no for me) or spoken for. I don't believe in the whole "be yourself" thing, my interests are also a no-no... trains, computers and electronics being the main ones.

Maybe I'm steering away from people due to being burned multiple times in the past, I wouldn't rule it out. But I need to break out of this shell for my own sanity. If anyone has any suggestions for me I'd love to hear them. Other than this I'm extremely happy I made the move and in the main am pleased with the accomplishment of getting this far.

tbh

the way I see it, you are faced with a daunting situation, i.e. mingling with people you don't know - so the way you deal with it is to walk away from it - by not going out, not going to the communal areas in the house etc etc. This is obviously not what you want to be doing, so it's causing conflict. What I'd say to you is to gradually make it less daunting - spend an hour a day in the communal areas in your house for the next week, you'll see it'll get easier - the more you talk to the others in your house, the more you'll get to know them and the more you'll have to talk about, so things will be less awkward. Get used to making friends and worry about the girl thing later.

fair play to you for moving back to dublin if that's what you want to do, put it this way - you've done the hardest part, this is like the final 2%

karen3212

Hi
I agree with the person above. I think it's great that you are living with other people cause really with time you will get to know them, even if you only start with 10 minutes or so of chat while you are making something in the kitchen to begin with.

I hope you make friends soon, a lot of people understand shyness, so if you just smile a lot people will know that you are a friendly type of person and may be more inclined to talk to you.

Saintly

Glad to hear you're happy with the changes you have made so far. That in itself should give you the confidence to continue to make changes. You just re-read your post and look at what you are saying and what you are actually doing.

You say that you want to have friends, yet you don't speak to your housemates unless they speak with you first. You look at people on the street and wish that you too could experience friendship and intimacy, yet you spend most of your time alone in your home - when there are 6 potential mates sitting downstairs. I understand the need to be solitary - make sure you build a night or two into your week, of just your own
company - but build a life around that. Take small steps, read about overcoming shyness, set small goals and absolutely force yourself to complete them - five nights out of the week - have a coffee, suggest a movie, watch t.v. or do something with your housemates. You are fortunate in the sense that you 1) know you are capable of friendships and b) have proven you are capable of change.

Good luck!

Saintly

cathald

Hi,

Kudos to you for knowing yourself so well and being so honest.Yes, take it easy, one step at a time, now that you've made the first move....just imagine where you would like to be next and take small steps in the direction..
also,don't be hard on your self...:)

Miss Fluff

Karsini wrote:

I live in a shared house with 6 others and rarely enter the communal areas, prefering to stay in my own "sanctuary."

Quite straightforward really but YOU hold the key too all of this. I really do feel for you if you are shy, it's not something I suffer from personally, but it's important that you step out of your comfort zone and challenge yourself to interact more. It's down to you whether you meet people and you are in the enviable position of living with 6 other people. Like someone suggested, start with sitting in the kitchen for ten minutes and having a chat. It really is that simple. Good luck

Faith

I've been in a similar situation with regards to living with strangers. Initially, I spent all my time in my bedroom, scared of them. But one day, I was in the kitchen and one came in and we started chatting. Then another one came in and joined the conversation, then the last one. I could only handle it for 30 mins or an hour, but it was enough to get used to them.

Go into the kitchen when there's no-one there, but are people in the house. Make a cup of tea and sit down at the table. Wait for your flatmates to come in and start talking to you. That way, you don't have to do the work, but you'll get talking to them.

Kell

Karsini wrote:

Maybe I'm steering away from people due to being burned multiple times in the past,

Can you explain "burned multiple times in the past" please.

The reason I ask is that I dont believe for a moment that anyone else can actually influence your emotional state. Only you can. If you say you got burned, you're just transferring accountability for making a poor choice onto someone else, rather than accept you made a bad decision on something.

If you realise that you, and you alone, are responsible for the way you feel about things, you stop shying away from people safe in the knowledge that they cant actually cause you any harm.

I dont understand how you can be a solitary type of individual AND crave companionship. People dont usually fall between the two stools. You either have the introverts who are quite happy to be alone, or the extroverts who need others to satisfy them. How can you be both?

K-

Marksie

Kell wrote:

I dont understand how you can be a solitary type of individual AND crave companionship. People dont usually fall between the two stools. You either have the introverts who are quite happy to be alone, or the extroverts who need others to satisfy them. How can you be both?

K-

No its entirely possible as i do fall into that category. Being solitary, but also at times being sociable and loving theh bounce and verve of company. It is just a matter of realising that that is who you are and getting teh balance right. Hell, i can be very quiet (despite what people may think) but make the effort when i can to go to social events.

It is a question of making a conscious decision, OK you may feel awkward at first but with practice it gets better. You just have to be willing to do it.

But i don't think the issue is the balance of solitary and gregarious, but the self view Karsini has. I remember his posts about moving. He has done that, but has yet to realise that while making the positive change in one direction IS good he still has to work on all the other issues.

This lack of self esteem and shyness is one of them. It would have been nice that when you changed jobs a new group of friends came along with it, but it doesnt and won't.

However, you have to work on the eye contact and shyness issues, if necessary by attending classes if you need help.

You say that you don't believe in the be yourself thing, but who else will you be? and why do you say your interests being a no-no, some of mine are not necessarily something that wow people.

it smacks in part of trying to make excuses and the last statement you have made tends to bear that out. "being burnt" is a bit ambiguous. We have all been burnt at one time or another. Some say to hell with it thats life, i will learn but it wont stop me. others say..i am withdrawing and having no contact with people so that i won't be hurt again, I believe you fall into the second category.

Good news, is if you really want to you can make a conscious decision to change, you did this in moving jobs. Apply that coinfidence in your personal relationships

Kell

marksuttonie wrote:

i am withdrawing and having no contact with people so that i won't be hurt again, I believe you fall into the second category.

Exactly what I thought.

marksuttonie wrote:

No its entirely possible as i do fall into that category. Being solitary, but also at times being sociable and loving theh bounce and verve of company.

Yes, but either way there is a pre-desposition. Example- I am completely gregarious, sociable, love company and generally dont do being on my own. That said, I can quite happily spend days painting a picture, completely away from anyone and disliking being disturbed. BUT- my predisposition will always be my gregarious side. Whats the OP's predisposition?

marksuttonie wrote:

However, you have to work on the eye contact

Thats a big thing. If someone wont establish eye contact with me, I give them enough of my time to let them finish what they are saying and thats it- no further engagement. Prospective employers are also like this too.

Why will you not establish eye contact OP? Why is it so unnnerving and terrifying?

K-

I can't explain why eye contact is so hard for me. But about the employment situation I certainly didn't get my current job because of my social skills, rather it was my technical experience. I was convinced I wouldn't get it because of how the verbal interview went.

Kell

Karsini wrote:

"being burned" refers to being bullied at school and cheated on twice.

These are things that you dont have control over, so the choice isnt necessarily yours. How you choose to look back on these experiences or live your life going forward is under your control.

Example- I could choose not to try and get to know people because x, y & z person pulled the rug out from under my world and left me in a horrible place. Or, I could try and engage with new people on the offchance they might be the best thing that ever happened to me. I will always go with option two.

Being cheated on sucks donkey balls. At least when you look back you have the opportunity to go "I am sure glad they aint in my life anymore". Whats good for you in life isnt necessarily a pleasure.

Karsini wrote:

I can't explain why eye contact is so hard for me.

Can you really have a good think about it and try. Its really very important that you can figure why it happens. If you cant figure out why you cant make eye contact, you wont be able to fix it.

K-

MikeHoncho

People love talking about themselves. I find that if you cant think of much to say for yourself you should ask people a bunch of questions and seem interested in what they have to say. Nothing too personal just get them talking and the rest will come easy. Once you know them a bit better you might feel more comfortable talking about your own interests.

Marksie

Karsini wrote:

I can't explain why eye contact is so hard for me.

It is a biggy, if you can look someone in the eye then you can begin developing things from there.

Is that you see it as a challenge or that someone is judging you, or alternatively do you see it as if you engage in contact it will be seen as an issue and a threat?

One thing that may be useful is to actually engage in eye contact with the person you knwo most, yourself using a mirror. It is a process whereby you study yourself but also one in which you get some idea of what others see.

MikeHoncho made a very good point. We all like talking about ourselves, so if talking to someone, particulalry a date, ask about them and let the converstaion be guided by the responses..in other words listen... and engage in eye contact! Use your natural shyness to great effect let the person talk, get to know them and let yourself gradually open up.
Do not be afraid to allow lapses in a conversation, dont feel the need to fill every spare minute with conversation and "witty" banter. you may end up coming across as ken dodd on acid.
Sometimes a good litmus test is what happens when the conversation lulls

I'm in work right now, hence the slow and short replies. I think my issue with the whole eye contact thing is attraction, and I'm worst with fellas where eye contact is zero. I think I can only keep eye contact with someone if I find her attractive or if they're good friends of mine. This thought was brought about earlier when I was able to keep eye contact with a customer I found attractive.

About my interests, I'm probably being too hard on myself but that's my nature. When I was 15 I knew someone who didn't want to hear anything about my interests, I wasn't into what she liked but still let her talk about it, wasn't the same the other way round though. I didn't stay friends with her for long obviously. Past experiences seem to dictate my thoughts and actions.

Marksie

Karsini wrote:

I think I can only keep eye contact with someone if I find her attractive or if they're good friends of mine. This thought was brought about earlier when I was able to keep eye contact with a customer I found attractive..

Again why?
If you are in a sales position aren't you trained that yey contcat is one of the fundamentals of selling?

Karsini wrote:

I wasn't into what she liked but still let her talk about it, wasn't the same the other way round though. I didn't stay friends with her for long obviously.

Why should friendship be predicated on what they can do for you?
I try to hold what is known as unconditional friendship, expecting no more than they are prepared to give, but being open with them.
i have carried that through to my relationships to, as a matter of interest and it seems to work nicely.

Karsini wrote:

Past experiences seem to dictate my thoughts and actions.

Nail. Hammer. Head

Kell

Karsini wrote:

I think my issue with the whole eye contact thing is attraction, and I'm worst with fellas where eye contact is zero. I think I can only keep eye contact with someone if I find her attractive or if they're good friends of mine.

Point taken although you do know that peoples body language and face can lie to you. Their eyes cant- unless they are a professional poker player.

The past dictating your present and future is bad. You'll never forget the past but what you need to do is appreciate that it is there but also appreciate that things dont have to go the way things did in the past all the time.

Even if you make the wrong choice or a decision turns out to be the wrong one you can always say "hmmn. Should have seen that one coming". It doesnt mean you dont do the same thing again, but you learn to identify very quickly what is going to cause you to get hurt or not. Sorry- that doesnt make much sense. Easier to go by own experience-

I used to wander around allowing myself to get into situations where I ended up fairly badly off. Not going into too much detail, second best seemed like acceptable to me. Then I figured, no, second best is not acceptable. All of a sudden I found myself identifying the situations that would cause me harm, and walk away from them. In an instant. No thought. It wasnt that I said "I cant do that because I did it before and got fúcked up" it was more that alarm bells started rining in my head and I went along with them Hmmn. That still doesnt make much sense, but hopefully you will get the picture.

Marksuttonie wrote:

If you are in a sales position aren't you trained that yey contcat is one of the fundamentals of selling?

Very few companies in Ireland actually offer any sales training whatsoever. Hence the reason why most reps are shít at their job.


K-

Marksie

Kell wrote:

Even if you make the wrong choice or a decision turns out to be the wrong one you can always say "hmmn. Should have seen that one coming". It doesnt mean you dont do the same thing again, but you learn to identify very quickly what is going to cause you to get hurt or not.

Or too put it another way, if you get rained on once, next time you see clouds you take an umbrella, just in case

Kell wrote:

Very few companies in Ireland actually offer any sales training whatsoever. Hence the reason why most reps are shít at their job.

Hmmmm ok. Karsini, try making eye contact dealing with customers are part of your job. Start there and work from that base

Kell

marksuttonie wrote:

Or too put it another way, if you get rained on once, next time you see clouds you take an umbrella, just in case

Thats what I was looking for. Two failed attempts and he does it in two lines. Harrumph.

K-

silverharp

You need to find activities where you can meet people in a "low stress" way. Activities like hillwalking are very sociable, activity weekends are great as well, sailing , windsurfing and the like. If you are not an out doors type of person then there various clubs/scoieties/courses that have a strong social element

Kell

silverharp wrote:

If you are not an out doors type of person then there various clubs/scoieties/courses that have a strong social element

Sorry- em, what is the point in a person who has admitted an issue with trying to talk to most people going to a social gathering and trying hard to fit in?

What the OP needs to do is examine the root cause of the problems that he has (which he is) and do something about them before unleashing himself into a society of hillwalkers. If he cant deal with talking to his housemates, how is he going to deal with a crowd of people?

K-

marksuttonie

marksuttonie wrote:

Again why?
If you are in a sales position aren't you trained that yey contcat is one of the fundamentals of selling?

Most of my work is done in the back where I don't need to talk to anyone. It's only if things get busy or someone is missing that I need to do it.

The whole eye contact thing still has me confused, I can't give a definitive answer.

But thanks to everyone for everything, there's a lot of good reading here. And also thanks to those who listened over the past year or two. It took me a long time but I finally got here.

Saintly

Kell wrote:

Sorry- em, what is the point in a person who has admitted an issue with trying to talk to most people going to a social gathering and trying hard to fit in?

What the OP needs to do is examine the root cause of the problems that he has (which he is) and do something about them before unleashing himself into a society of hillwalkers. If he cant deal with talking to his housemates, how is he going to deal with a crowd of people?

K-

The OP is not an emotional cripple!! He holds down a job, he has a number of friends, he has proven himself capable of making significant changes in his life and is living (if rather tentatively) in a group situation. We know he is shy and that he struggles with eye contact. That does not preclude him from social activities! I agree with silverharp - of course he could participate in group activities - being aware it may be a personal challenge, he might bring a friend along as a support - and yes, do something like hillwalking or an activity which has a clear goal for him (and the others present) to focus upon. Why can't he 'examine the root cause of the problems that he has and do something about them' while climbing a hill?! Perhaps he could begin practising some of the new skills, en route..

Saintly.

silverharp

Saintly wrote:

The OP is not an emotional cripple!! He holds down a job, he has a number of friends, he has proven himself capable of making significant changes in his life and is living (if rather tentatively) in a group situation. We know he is shy and that he struggles with eye contact. That does not preclude him from social activities! I agree with silverharp - of course he could participate in group activities - being aware it may be a personal challenge, he might bring a friend along as a support - and yes, do something like hillwalking or an activity which has a clear goal for him (and the others present) to focus upon. Why can't he 'examine the root cause of the problems that he has and do something about them' while climbing a hill?! Perhaps he could begin practising some of the new skills, en route..

Saintly.

Well said. I think the idea that someone needs to sort themselves out before being unleashed on he public has it completly backwards. If someone has an introverted personality the goal is not necessarily to become the opposite, more to get comfortable with yourself. By having sucessful social experiences, that creates a positive feedback. A physical activity is great as it creates its own natural high, you are around a group of people for an afternoon, there are no awkward silences in conversation, you can make your excuses and skip the pub bit afterwards. and before you know you may have had conversations with several people.

Kell

silverharp wrote:

By having sucessful social experiences, that creates a positive feedback. .

IF it creates positive feedback. As I said earlier, if Karsini has issues with talking to his house mates, what positive feedback do you think will be created by strangers? On the side of a hill?

Saintly wrote:

Why can't he 'examine the root cause of the problems that he has and do something about them' while climbing a hill?!

So your brain functions at its best in a group of strangers while you are trying to figure out life the universe and everything? Really??

Saintly wrote:

The OP is not an emotional cripple!!

I didnt say that, however if thats the way you wish to read it so be it. I simply paraphrased exactly what the OP said in his opening post.

K-

Saintly

KELL wrote:

So your brain functions at its best in a group of strangers while you are trying to figure out life the universe and everything? Really??

I wasn't aware the OP was trying to discover the meaning of life. What he is trying to do is to change his behaviour with strangers and/or in group settings. Joining in a group activity -where exercise as opposed to conversation is the theme- is NOT a ludicrous idea. Practising new skills in settings is a common theme of behaviour change. Obviously this would be a challenge for the OP (hence the suggestion re bringing a friend). Behaviour change is rarely easy, however the OP appears motivated to face the challenges involved in developing friendships/group activities etc - which is a huge positive to begin with.

Nobody has suggested that the OP have a lengthy conversation with the other group members. The joy of exercise such as hillwalking (or any other activity of the OPs choice!!) is that the OP can practice small steps - brief eye contact, limited small talk - and then get on with climbing a hill (where you actually have little time to talk and a lot of time to think!)

KELL wrote:

I didnt say that, however if thats the way you wish to read it so be it. I simply paraphrased exactly what the OP said in his opening post.

I know you didn't say that - but your original response to silverharp indicated that you didn't think joining a social activity could possibly help the OP with his social difficulties. I completely disagree.

Saintly.