Iarnród Éireann pricing

AlmightyCushion

Could someone please explain to me the method behind their pricing madness. A single from Dublin to Sligo costs the same amount as a return. Who's idea was that? Surely if I'm only travelling one way I should pay less than someone travelling both ways. Secondly, why is it cheaper to travel Monday to Thursday than it is at the weekends. With more people travelling at the weekends economies of scale says it should be cheaper to travel when there are more people on the bleedin' train which is at the weekend. Can anyone enlighten me on this madness or at least give me the address of the person responsible for th is pricing atrocity so.........I can have a nice quite chat with him

MarkoP11

Martin Cullen
Minister for Photo Opportunities
Transport House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2

The DoT regulate the fares, the only fare they are interested in is the open single and return fares

Example,
Cork Dublin open single 56.50
Cork Dublin restricted return, 61.00-67.00 (5 day, monthly) thats what everyone buys, thats discounted below the DoT level
Cork Dublin day saver 44.00 (there is no Dublin Cork saver fare) thats discounted below the DoT level
Cork Dublin open return, 110 ish (valid 3 months) it exists on the system but impossible to buy, that is the actual approved fare believe it or not

Legally they could charge the full whack all the time

Discounted fares don't apply on Friday or Sunday on two grounds, demand is low during the week lower fares helps, no shortage of punters on weekend, charge full price. Its an slightly twisted economy of scale, costs do increase the more they carry but since demand outstrips supply the price goes up. Fundamental issue is a low subsidy level secondary issue is the ticketing system is just plain strange, there are some clever tricks get around it.

If you are travelling out on Friday/Saturday and returning Sunday or Monday get a weekender card http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/ticketing.php#discount_cards that gets you to within a few euro of the student fare


Irish Rail have refused to alter the fares, they talk the talk about changing them but don't its revenue maximisation done stone age style. If the fares where normalised and consistent there would be a hole in the IE accounts, Cullen isn't willing to write the cheque to fill that. That also is the reason why integrated ticketing is stalled DoT won't write the cheque to cover the loss of revenue

Tom Dunne

I couldn't agree more, and I am a commuter.

A yearly, tax-saver ticket costs me €1540 from Enfield. However, if I drive 15 minutes in the road to Maynooth and get the train from there every morning, it costs me €845. And that's with far greater choice of trains.

Guess what I am going to be doing when my yearly ticket runs out in August?

MarkoP11

tom dunne wrote:

A yearly, tax-saver ticket costs me €1540 from Enfield. However, if I drive 15 minutes in the road to Maynooth and get the train from there every morning, it costs me €845. And that's with far greater choice of trains.

Thats a whole different problem, thats the Dublin Bus clause, where Dublin Bus serve the rail fare will be similar, if the town is only served by Bus Eireann well then the full intercity fare applies. The boundary of the Dublin suburban area hasn't been changed in decades, in fact it was never correct anyway, Enfield technically should be in it as should Sallins

Again Irish Rail have been cornered on this and have broken promises to take action.

Tom Dunne

MarkoP11 wrote:

Thats a whole different problem, thats the Dublin Bus clause, where Dublin Bus serve the rail fare will be similar, if the town is only served by Bus Eireann well then the full intercity fare applies. The boundary of the Dublin suburban area hasn't been changed in decades, in fact it was never correct anyway, Enfield technically should be in it as should Sallins

Again Irish Rail have been cornered on this and have broken promises to take action.

That's interesting.

I actually love getting the train, I love the though of not having to drive and if I want a few pints after work, I can.

I know they have added extra trains in the morning on the Longford route, which appears to have made a difference and I do applaud them for it. But if they could only sort out the friggin' fares, I'd be a very happy commuter.

MarkoP11

The situation is an absolute mess, infact its way worse than you could imagine I've looked into this and found some stunning abnormalities depending on where you are.

Irish Rail are like a brick way to talk to, they seem to understand the fare structure makes no sense but they will never admit that in public. They have consultants in currently but strangely no public consultation.

There is no motivation since the DoT and IE management will point to the fact of consistent passenger growth of the order of 7-15% per year and claim the fares are not putting people off.

That said there are loads of ways to cut the cost of journeys by understanding the system, http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/ticketing.php We have yet more tricks coming in May, best will be the pub crawl to Cork on a single ticket

1huge1

yes like the distance from maynooth to dublin is aorund the same as limerick to ennis but we are paying a whole load more

MarkoP11

Its not

Limerick Ennis is 24.8 miles
Connolly Maynooth is 16 miles

Mucco

tom dunne wrote:

I couldn't agree more, and I am a commuter.

A yearly, tax-saver ticket costs me €1540 from Enfield. However, if I drive 15 minutes in the road to Maynooth and get the train from there every morning, it costs me €845. And that's with far greater choice of trains.

Guess what I am going to be doing when my yearly ticket runs out in August?

How about a season ticket from Enfield to Maynooth, then your €845 from Maynooth to Dublin?

MarkoP11

Don't even go there, that scam is against the byelaws and also you can hold only one annual ticket, is it cheaper well I wouldn't be surprised

The €845 includes unlimited travel on all trains within the area bounded by Kilcoole, Hazelhatch, Maynooth and Balbriggan

AlmightyCushion

Thanks for the reply Marko. My main problem is I havn't got a place to live in the city yet so I am staying in my friends brothers house in Kinnegad. Because there is no train service to Kinnegad, I have to get the bus. On Friday evenings though I would prefer to get the train back to Sligo but at €36 it is far to expensive. As I am using the train to go the one way, why should I have to pay the same as someone using the train twice. It makes no sense.

Another grievance I have is the train carriages they are using on the line. I don't believe they are suitable for thier purpose. There is not enough seats so people end up sitting on the floor, no space for luggage, very little leg room and only a few tables of which they are very small. I know the carriages they replaced were terrible but surely they could have found a more suitable replacement. </rant> Phheeww that took a lot out of me.

AlekSmart

Lets get one item clear about ALL of the CIE Group Fare items...The Government through the Dept`s of Transport and Finance have TOTAL control over the entire regieme.
Over the past 7 years since the launch of the NDP back in 1999 the Government has displayed a breathtaking ignorance of the pivotal role which Fares and Ticketing can play in popularizing Public Transport.

I`m sorry,but for any Government to have total control over an entity such as CIE,then to invest vast sums in that group over some two decades in total without paying the slightest attention to the Fares and Ticketing structures is as far as I am concerned INCOMPETENCE verging on negligence.

As many posters have pointed out it doesnt even have to involve smart cards of hi technology..it merely takes accountancy rules to be revised to operate in favour of the CUSTOMER/ELECTORATE.

As Markop11 points out the REAL reason behind the RPA`s "SmartCard" fiasco has nothing whatever to do with systems,software,hardware or tender arrangements...It is TOTALLY about revenue split and the vitally necessary element of ANY such system Worldwide.....SUBVENTION !

It`s time I`m afraid to kick the PD`s ass on this one......If our Public Transport is ever to acheive real Modal shift then widespread fare support mechanisms are a pre-requisite...If the Government are not prepared to acknowledge that then T21 is a dead duck !! :mad:

dermo88

Some years ago, I posted this on IrishRailwaynews. Here are my opinions, and some additional comments from other posters:

I can give my opinion that the train ticketing system in Ireland is overpriced in some resepcts, and underpriced in others. It needs more flexibility to create travel opportunities and maximise revenue for the railway, while offering passengers value for money where needed. There needs to be greater banding in the style and type of tickets offered.

Therefore, we seperate the rail network into several bands:

High Quality Band A routes:

Dublin - Cork, Dublin - Limerick (Direct trains only, no changing at Limerick Junction), Dublin - Belfast,
Dublin - Galway

Where the average speed, point to point is equal to or greater than 100kmh (60 mph)

Then, seperate the ticket types into Peak and Off Peak (Peak meaning travel on Intercity Expresses, where a seat is GUARANTEED on the train. No seats available, means you wait for the next train, or you don't travel. This eliminates the crap service of overcrowded trains that has given Iarnród Éireann a poor reputation over the years. For this I recommend a price of 25 cent per kilometer on peak demand services (7:00 Heuston to Cork) for a walk on fare, which would give a price of EUR64.00. Peak services cater more for business travellers. A return fare would be at a 75% premium above this, meaning a fare of EUR112.00 return (Standard Class. A First Class ticket on the CItygold would be priced at Double this again.

However, before there is an outcry at this, there should be discounts for advance booking

24 hour advance purchase, means that you get a 50% discount and travel for EUR56.00 rtn
3 Day Advance purchase, means that you get a further discount of 30% and travel for EUR39.20 rtn
7 Day Advance purchase, means you get to travel for EUR28.00 rtn
14 Day or greater advance purchase means you travel for EUR21.00 (A Bargain for Dublin to Cork)

Off peak services are discounted also, with any train leaving Heuston to Cork after 10:00, and before 16:00 are discounted, with the walk on fare becoming EUR56.00, and the other fares discounted in proportion.

For a guideline, Dublin to Limerick (128 miles or 205km), Dublin to Belfast (111 miles or 180km), Dublin to Galway (135 miles or 215km)

Slower Band B routes

Dublin to Waterford
Dublin to Tralee (Beyond Mallow at 15 cent per kilometer)
Dublin to Westport prices at the same level as Dublin - Galway on account of slower services, and competition from Dublin Airport to Knock Air services)
Dublin to Sligo

Band C routes (regional), charged at a flat rate of 12 cent per kilometer

Dublin to Rosslare
Rosslare to Limerick
Ennis to Limerick

_________________________________________________________________

pitched the fare levels too high for certain services. But its clear restrictions and improvements are needed.

1. To smooth out demand patterns
2. Maxmise revenue
3. Maxmise value for money across ALL target markets from Students to Youth to Young people, to Pensioners to Businessmen.
4. Service quality should definitely be improved for 1st class tickets such as the Citygold I proposed. This includes proper gourmet meals.
5. CAN gourmet meals or any meals be taken on at intermediate stops through contracts with local restaurants if e-mailed/SMSed en route by train staff. Thats an idea that saves money and the space of restaurant cars. E.g. If the train is leaving Heuston, passengers are informed, "Food orders will only be taken 10 minutes after departure, and will be served after our first stop at Portarlington/Portlaoise etc.
6. The range of tickets and prices needs to be expanded. To me that means you can get a very cheap ticket from Dublin to Cork if you change at Portarlington, then change at Limerick Junction, etc, by being allocated local (Arrow operated) services. That keeps your student market on side, and the high class, high end revenue on CDE sets.

Theres an awful lot to consider here. However, in light of the decision to shove 2900 Class on Dublin to Sligo, would it be a fair assumption to make that theres not a lot of business travel on that route compared to the Intercity lines from Heuston.
_______________________________________________________________

By P11supporter:

Dermo, we have to walk before we can run.

Irish Rail needs to start by getting the irregularities out of their ticketing and fares policies.

Let's start with the absurd prices of one-way tickets. Often you simply cannot use a one-way ticket on a train, esp. on weekends. You have to buy a monthly return. Nuts. Even when Irish Rail does, by its Eternal Grace allow you to buy a one-way, you're usually as well off to buy a day-return as the cost is the same.

Now, let's get to the Company Bye-Laws on ticketing and travel. There are more irregularities here even worse than the lunacy described above.

The Company Bye-Laws state (and there are signs at almost every station) that it is unlawful to board a train without a ticket. Fair enough.

But there are million holes in the policy
1: If you board an Intercity train such as a scheduled Sligo train, the conductor will sell you a ticket and carries a load of vending gear for this purpose.
2: There are a number of cases when you cannot buy a ticket. Firstly is when the stationmaster simply shuts up shop (even though there is a train coming) you cannot buy a ticket. Obviously. So you have no choice but to be a "criminal" and board the train ticketless.

The second point is really a-freakin-nnoying when the train you couldnt buy a ticket for is a Commuter train and there is no freaking conductor to sell you a ticket as per point one.

All Irish Rail ticketing policies should be thrown in the bin, including their stupid bye-laws, and a suitable, coherent set of policies should be applied in their place.


Here's what I suggest. A one-way ticket should ALWAYS be available, and it should work on ANY train. This one-way ticket should cost exactly half of a day return ticket.

Regarding tickets and travel policy - on the DART, Inner Commuter, and Cork Suburban, all trains should have the "don't board without a ticket" policy applied, and backed up by stringent enforcement, plus the ability to buy any ticket, any time at any station on the short-haul system.

For long distance Commuter and Intercity, allow passengers to board without tickets but all such trains should have a conductor who will sell a ticket, subject to an on-board service charge, say E2 or something.
_________________________________________________________________

This was from September 2005, the full link is here:

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=25020&LastModified=4675532698692336258

SeanW

Yep, the price of a single to ANYWHERE on the Sligo line is THE SAME AS A RETURN.

That includes empty trains such as ones leaving Connolly in the early morning.

Only in Ireland can you pay €26 for the pleasure of being alone in a crappy railcar on a 70 mile journey. Well, I don't know, maybe it's worse in Zimbabwe?

It compares so badly with best international practice as to be beyond a joke.

For example, if you go to New York, all the railways, both the Subway and the regional railroads, operate a coherent, practical manner that is so simple and transparent even a brain damaged monkey could know exactly how much they're going to pay for most journies. My main experience is with Metro North Railraod, which carries passengers from New Haven, Connecticut and Upstate New York into Grand Central Terminal.

For example, the schedule states clearly how much it costs to get between Grand Central or 125th St and any one of any group of stations. Each train is designated "Peak" or "Off Peak" depending on when it gets into or out of the main station (though it's changed recently to reflect a new trend in "reverse commuting")

A one way ticket will always cost exactly half that of a return, which is just 2 one-ways printed on a single ticket. You can use any ticket purchased for any journey up to 3 months from the date of sale, provided you don't try to use an Off Peak ticket on a Peak train, in which case you have to pay the conductor a step up fare.

Heck, you can even buy a one way ticket from any station to another, and then travel in the opposite direction perfectly legally, as long as you follow the Peak/Off Peak rules.

You can also buy your ticket on the train, but are limited to cash-only and it costs a lot more.

I should scan a Metro North Railroad schedule so that everyone here can see how a PROPER fares structure works when you've got a government that gives a damn.

Victor

AlmightyCushion wrote:

Secondly, why is it cheaper to travel Monday to Thursday than it is at the weekends. With more people travelling at the weekends economies of scale says it should be cheaper to travel

This would assume you can conjure up rolling stock out of thin air.

Economies of scale only improve the cost of providing something, it doesn't affect the market price (although the market price is distorted).

AlmightyCushion

SeanW wrote:

Yep, the price of a single to ANYWHERE on the Sligo line is THE SAME AS A RETURN.

That includes empty trains such as ones leaving Connolly in the early morning.

Only in Ireland can you pay €26 for the pleasure of being alone in a crappy railcar on a 70 mile journey. Well, I don't know, maybe it's worse in Zimbabwe?

It compares so badly with best international practice as to be beyond a joke.

For example, if you go to New York, all the railways, both the Subway and the regional railroads, operate a coherent, practical manner that is so simple and transparent even a brain damaged monkey could know exactly how much they're going to pay for most journies. My main experience is with Metro North Railraod, which carries passengers from New Haven, Connecticut and Upstate New York into Grand Central Terminal.

For example, the schedule states clearly how much it costs to get between Grand Central or 125th St and any one of any group of stations. Each train is designated "Peak" or "Off Peak" depending on when it gets into or out of the main station (though it's changed recently to reflect a new trend in "reverse commuting")

A one way ticket will always cost exactly half that of a return, which is just 2 one-ways printed on a single ticket. You can use any ticket purchased for any journey up to 3 months from the date of sale, provided you don't try to use an Off Peak ticket on a Peak train, in which case you have to pay the conductor a step up fare.

Heck, you can even buy a one way ticket from any station to another, and then travel in the opposite direction perfectly legally, as long as you follow the Peak/Off Peak rules.

You can also buy your ticket on the train, but are limited to cash-only and it costs a lot more.

I should scan a Metro North Railroad schedule so that everyone here can see how a PROPER fares structure works when you've got a government that gives a damn.

It'll be a very cold day in hell before we ever see the likes of this in Ireland.