Bringing Dublin Bus to Ashbourne

K_P

A friend of mine has started campaigning for a better bus service to Ashbourne, a town only 20km from Dublin but still served by an extortionately expensive inadequate Bus Eireann service. I'm sure this problem exists in plenty other towns around Dublin and now that we're coming up to a general election, it's the perfect time to do something about it.

Dublin Bus already operates in parts of Kildare, Wicklow and Meath. It makes sense for its service to extend to the thousands of people who commute to Dublin from Ashbourne, Ratoath and similar commuter towns every day.

I've attached a link about this issue in this week's Meath Chronicle. Email AshbourneBus@gmail.com for more info.

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1818698&issue_id=15548

markpb

K_P wrote:

A friend of mine has started campaigning for a better bus service to Ashbourne, a town only 20km from Dublin but still served by an extortionately expensive inadequate Bus Eireann service

Surely a DB service between Ashbourne and the city centre would be slower than a BE service because it would stop all over the place?

Also that article mentions the port tunnell but it's worth noting that no regular or express DB service uses the port tunnel at the moment.

K_P

The Bus Eireann buses stop everywhere as it is. To be honest it's not a time issue, there are bus lanes most of the way into town. The main problem I find is the cost and that there are never enough buses. For example, they send coaches instead of double deckers during rush hour. So if you get on after the second stop, you're left standing there for god knows how long. I'm sure this is a problem all over, not just Ashbourne.

antoinolachtnai

What are the numbers. How many people are in Ashbourne, what is the growth and what is the travel time?

Aquavid

K_P wrote:

Dublin Bus already operates in parts of Kildare, Wicklow and Meath. It makes sense for its service to extend to the thousands of people who commute to Dublin from Ashbourne, Ratoath and similar commuter towns every day.

I've attached a link about this issue in this week's Meath Chronicle. Email AshbourneBus@gmail.com for more info.

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1818698&issue_id=15548

But where Dublin Bus operate to Wicklow (84, Newcastle or 184 Newtownmountkennedy amongst others) or Kildare (Ballymore Eustace 65, Maynooth & Kilcock 66) they do so at very sparse frequencies way below the ones Bus Eireann have on their commuter routes.

Have a look at the frequency of the BE Ashbourne serv ice, and compare it with the DB service to Kilcoole & Newcastle (84) or Blessington & Ballymore (65) and you will see that you are very well off by comparison.

Or compare the frequency of the DB and BE services to Balbriggan, one of very few places served by both operators.

Also bear in mind BEs plans to introduce a 12min frequency on most commuter routes into Dublin - they are currently placing an order for 32 more lowfloor accessible double-deck coaches to run on these services.

Aquavid

dam099

K_P wrote:

... The main problem I find is the cost and that there are never enough buses. For example, they send coaches instead of double deckers during rush hour.

I don't think having Dublin Bus operate the routes would help with having enough buses as they don't have enough buses to adequately serve expanding areas within Dublin at the moment. Even with the new buses they are getting I doubt this will leave them with loads as I don't think they got all they requested anyway.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What are the numbers. How many people are in Ashbourne, what is the growth and what is the travel time?

Ashbourne 8,528 +34.0% (2002-2006) including the sourrounding area about 11,000.

Maynooth 10,715 +5.6% (2002-2006) including the sourrounding area about 11,500.

Ashbourne served by 103 / 104 / 105 / 107 / 177. 45 minutes nominally to city centre. 9 services arrive city centre by 9am.

MiniD

Aquavid wrote:

But where Dublin Bus operate to Wicklow (84, Newcastle or 184 Newtownmountkennedy amongst others) or Kildare (Ballymore Eustace 65, Maynooth & Kilcock 66) they do so at very sparse frequencies way below the ones Bus Eireann have on their commuter routes.

I'm not sure I fully agree with you. If you consider how well served South Wicklow is with the 84 and the 145, which is every 10 minutes at peak hours, you can see there is quite a difference. There is also the Bray local service which covers a lot of ground in S.Wicklow.

Distance from Dublin:

Kilmacanogue Area of Wicklow (15.5 miles): Route 145 every 10 minutes

Maynooth, Co. Kildare (16.2 miles): Routes 66, 66X, and 67A. Over 60 departures daily and 10 express services.

Blessington, Co. Wicklow (19 miles): Route 65 with 15 departures daily.

Balbriggan, North County Dublin (20.4 miles): Route 33, 16 departures daily. Also served by local service 33A.

Dunboyne, Co. Meath (15 miles): Route 70/70A and 70X with a total of 20 departures daily.

And then...

Ashbourne, Co. Meath (13.6 miles): No Dublin Bus service, except for Nitelink 88X.


I'm guessing the reason for this stems back to when these routes were introduced many years ago before the formation of CIE. Because these routes were already in place, additional routes have just been added to these corridors (145/33A/66X). Service has been increased because population has increased and the demand has been greater. I believe Ashbourne has just as great a demand as Blessington or Dunboyne but is in the unfortunate position of not ever having a Dublin Bus route sent out there for whatever reason.

When you compare the distance of Ashbourne to the other Dublin Bus locations above, it is unfair that Ashbourne passengers are forced to pay a higher Bus Eireann fare for traveling a shorter distance than somebody using a prepaid Dublin Bus ticket.

Victor

MiniD wrote:

South Wicklow

North Wicklow!

The area has a population well over 50,000.

Dub13

How much is it on a BE bus from Ashbourne to Dublin...?

Ste.phen

I think 2.30?
long time since i did that journey though

MiniD

Victor wrote:

North Wicklow!

Sorry, my mistake... of course North Wicklow.;)

Pet

Igy wrote:

I think 2.30?
long time since i did that journey though

Eh, a bit more, try €5.50 return.

Aquavid

MiniD, when comparing the 145 to the Ashbourne service, you are not comparing like to like.

The 145 does not run, at any stage, anywhere along its route, through open countryside. It runs from start to finish through built up areas.

Ashbourne's main BE service, the 103, runs through countryside from just beyond the M50 to Ashbourne. This is why I compared it with similar DB service, such as the 65/66, which likewise run to distinct towns outside the single conurbation of Dublin and surrounds.

BE's Ashbourne service runs a 15-20 minute frequency through most of the day, which they want to increase to 9-12 mins.

Likewise, BE wanted to increase the frequency of the 101 service through Balbriggan to Drogheda to 15 min all day, but could not get a licence for this for a long time, due to objections by a private operator in the area.

(Dublin Bus want to add an additional 12 buses to the 66/67 routes to bring about a substantial frequency increase to Celbridge and Maynooth, but likewise have been blocked due to complaints from a local private operator).

Sadly there are currently no plans for extra buses for the 84/184 despite a massive population increase in the area of Kilcoole/Charlesland/Delgany/Greystones.

Aquavid

SickCert

Sadly there are currently no plans for extra buses for the 84/184 despite a massive population increase in the area of Kilcoole/Charlesland/Delgany/Greystones.

At the last local meeting new bills were asked for the 45s 75s and 84s - but there is a space problem in Bray depot. 184s at times carry very few except in the mornings. Keep in mind we have gone from a local link imp in 2001 carrying about 20 to a single decker, now a doubler!
Dont forget the 84x, a 15 minute departure every morning from 630 to 745am.

K_P

Victor wrote:

Ashbourne served by 103 / 104 / 105 / 107 / 177. 45 minutes nominally to city centre. 9 services arrive city centre by 9am.

I'd love to know where these 104 107 and 177 buses are coming from. I've never seen any of them in Ashbourne. Ashbourne is served by the 103 and some buses on the 105 route.

As for fares, it's €5.70 day return and €7 for a monthly return which is absolutely extortionate.

I realise Ashbourne is luckier than some places by having a fairly regular service and the journey time isn't too bad. But the prices people are being charged while living so close to Dublin is ridiculous.

Interesting to see everyone's opinion though.

bazzer

104.

107.

177.

AlekSmart

There is a lot of sense in the "Idea" of bringing BAC services to Ashbourne.
However the entire scenario is yet again one of those "Problems" which simply should not be occurring.

Aquavid is spot on in his description of Open Countryside between Finglas and Ashbourne itself.
This green and pleasant strip will not last forever and my guess is that within 5 years it will shrink by 50%,planning or no planning.

If one factors in Ratoath then the situation worsen`s considerably.

We have here a textbook example of how NOT to do public transport of any form.

Why has the present creaking situation been allowed to continue pottering along after development takes place.

The secret here is to have a FULL public Bus service operational well in advance of any new residents arriving.

The first step in any resedential/commerecial development should ALWAYS be...."Where do we put the Bus-Tram-Train Terminus "

Having decided that bit of basic infrastructure everything else should radiate from it.
Instead of providing Car Parking spaces in a vain attempt to provide and cater for the impossible the developers should be getting involved in actively facilitating Local feeder services to Trunk Points and if necessary providing Commuter Type tickets as part of the Property Purchase deal.

Dublin Bus has already some considerable success in co-operative planning ventures especially around the Navan Road/Ashington/Ashtown area but these are pin pricks unless the principle is enshrined in some form of Socially Desirable leglislation.

No doubt but in the next 3 weeks Ashbourne will be promised a Monorail direct from the Pillar to Kilmoon with departures every Minute and a free jet pack wen u arrive at Ashbourne International,But lets see what transpires after May 24th before we start slapping our thighs !!!!

markf909

(Dublin Bus want to add an additional 12 buses to the 66/67 routes to bring about a substantial frequency increase to Celbridge and Maynooth, but likewise have been blocked due to complaints from a local private operator).

I wonder how a private operator can hold up service increases to the 66 considering there are no private services to/from Maynooth.

I know Mortons do operate from Celbridge.

Aquavid

The Department of Transport take a very liberal view of complaints from private operators, and have been known to block Dublin Bus service increases even if the routes are just "near" the private operator.

I will trawl through my files tonight, and find the link to a mainstream press report of this particular conflict - might take me a while though, it was reported about a month ago.

Aquavid

Victor

K_P wrote:

As for fares, it's €5.70 day return and €7 for a monthly return which is absolutely extortionate.

€7? :eek:

Do the buses use the old North Road or the new N2?

bazzer

The €7 ticket is good for one return journey which can be used within a month of the ticket being puchased on the bus.

K_P

Would DB users in Bray, Greystones, Balbriggan, Maynooth - anywhere else that's 20-30km from the city centre - accept a system where you must buy two journeys at a time and pay €7 for the privilege (€3.50 each way)? Would DB users accept having to pay €4.30 if they just want to pay for one journey?

Fares are:
€4.30 for single journey
€5.75 for day return (in and out same day)
€7.00 for monthly return (in and out different days)
€27.30 for 10 journey ticket (only good for BÉ 103 to Ashbourne, funny enough)
€1,392 for a Yearly TaxSaver ticket (bizarrely more expensive than buying 48 weekly tickets for your working year - compared to €780 with DB if you live 45km from Dublin in Newcastle, Co. Wicklow)

The Ashbourne 103 BÉ service already stops a lot inside the M50 so if it was picking up passengers, it wouldn't make a huge difference to journey times. And the Dublin Bus fares/card readers would speed up boarding times, which would shave a bit off the time buses spend at stops. Plus we need to be within the Dublin transport system, not looking on the sidelines, because huge proportion of Ashbourne's population work in the city and beyond.

Ashbourne has an overpriced rural bus service when we should be getting the same value as everyone else in the Dublin area with a value-for-money suburban bus service. Why? Because we're just 20km from the Spire - and much closer to DB in Harristown than BE in Broadstone.

John R

Victor wrote:

€7? :eek:

That is not any more expensive than Dublin Bus cash fares for similar distances.

The cash fares on Dublin Bus outer suburban routes are €2.10, €3.10 and €4.10

The 33x from Skerries, Rush or Lusk to the city is €3.20 one way

The 84x from Newcastle, Kilcoole or NewtownMK to the city is €3.20 one way.


The big price difference the Ashbourne commuters are griping about is the huge discount available with the DB day or travel 90 tickets which effectively cap all DB journeys at €1.70. This gives disproportionatly large saving over the outer suburban fares than the regular fares.

Bus Eireann also offer a discount with 10 journey tickets at €27, they also give discounts on all types of fares for students and a 10% discount for buying online.



The idea that a DB service would somehow be more frequent or faster is just nonsense. Ashbourne already has a more frequent service with the 103 than a good deal of Dublin bus routes within a few miles of the city centre.

There are 49 departures from Ashbourne on weekdays with at least a 20 minute frequency all day.


The service essentially runs express from the city to the M50 and unlike any of the longer DB routes does not serve the inner city or Dublin suburbs it runs through.


Under the DTA there should be more integration of DB and BE services.

IMO it will be some of the DB served areas that should benefit most, the introduction of higher frequency limited stop services for the likes of Kilcoole, Skerries, Blessington, etc would be a massive step forward from the current situation where these locations have routes that regularly take the best part of 2 hours from the city as they pick-up and drop-off at every single bus stop.

Aquavid

John R wrote:

The idea that a DB service would somehow be more frequent or faster is just nonsense. Ashbourne already has a more frequent service with the 103 than a good deal of Dublin bus routes within a few miles of the city centre.

There are 49 departures from Ashbourne on weekdays with at least a 20 minute frequency all day.

Exactly!

I live in the Dublin Bus area, around 10km from the city centre, I'm surrounded by thousands of new apartments and a new retail centre - and my DB bus runs roughly once an hour!

Ironically K_P, the nearest place to Ashbourne that DB used to run to was Oldtown, which they served with the stunning frequency of . . . once a week!

Where you are right is on the fares - BE should be offering discount cards which give similar value to DB.

The situation is even worse in cork though, where any route that goes more than about 5km from the city is classified as "rural" with steep, steep fares.

Aquavid

Gonzo

Dunshaughlin is in a similar situation as Ashbourne. We have no Dublin Bus Service and have to rely on Bus Eireann and half the time the bus dont run or they are full and the bus doesnt stop. Were about 18 miles from Dublin and sometimes you can be waiting on a bus for up to 2 hours especially on a Sunday. The Prices are very expensive as well, about €5.60 single and sometimes up to €8 return.

K_P

John R wrote:

That is not any more expensive than Dublin Bus cash fares for similar distances.

The cash fares on Dublin Bus outer suburban routes are €2.10, €3.10 and €4.10

The 33x from Skerries, Rush or Lusk to the city is €3.20 one way

The 84x from Newcastle, Kilcoole or NewtownMK to the city is €3.20 one way.

Rolestown is 1km further from Dublin than Ashbourne, 3km from Ashbourne and yet pay just €1.90 to town. Tyrellstown was just a few fields til 4 years ago, they suddenly got a Dublin Bus service and they also pay €1.90, despite having a miniscule population. That's the same level we want to be at.

JohnR wrote:

Bus Eireann also offer a discount with 10 journey tickets at €27, they also give discounts on all types of fares for students and a 10% discount for buying online.

They give us a 5% discount, which is pathetic. Why wouldn't they provide a student discount? And who buys a weekly bus ticket online - and for that matter why should we have to? DB users don't. As I said earlier, if DB users living further from Dublin - in Balbriggan, Bray, Maynooth or Blessington - don't have to put up with it, why should we in Ashbourne? How can anyone defend BE's rural, half-baked and unfair "fare structure".

JohnR wrote:

The idea that a DB service would somehow be more frequent or faster is just nonsense. Ashbourne already has a more frequent service with the 103 than a ood deal of Dublin bus routes within a few miles of the city centre.

There are 49 departures from Ashbourne on weekdays with at least a 20 minute frequency all day.

You obviously don't live in Ashbourne! While on paper they have a 20 min frequency, BE are not set up to deliver this. They rely on contracted buses to fill in the gaps, they inevitably use coaches, the coaches fill up before everyone gets on and I, and dozens of other commuters, are left at the bus stop for an HOUR at peak time. And we're not guaranteed double-deckers on all services because - I s**t you not - the drivers are allowed to pick their buses and if they want a single deck to get home quicker, they take it.

Not to mention the farcical situation we've been presented with on several occasions where a CIE Tours bus has been dispatched on short notice because BE are down a bus in Ash and he turns up, "only looking for people with tickets". Why? Because he has no ticket machine and no cash facility. BE have had their chance and they're pathetic.

And if Ashbourne needs buses every 20 minutes (or 12, as they reckon they'll do soon), then we need them at that frequency as well with Dublin Bus. Ashbourne is well-placed for public transport, we just need a company that offer more than "a trip to the big smoke", which is all Bus Eireann seem to do.

JohnR wrote:

The service essentially runs express from the city to the M50 and unlike any of the longer DB routes does not serve the inner city or Dublin suburbs it runs through.

It already stops at the North City Business Park in Finglas, Finglas Village, Glasnevin at St. Vincent's School, Whitworth Rd, Dorset St and O'Connell St. Hardly an express service. If stopping along the way helped the route be more feasible, I'm all for it.

If someone 45km from the city centre can pay €17.80 (or €17.30, not sure which) for 5 days bus travel, €780 for a year's travel and be able to get tickets that work on DARTs, Luases and other Dublin Buses, then why can't people living just 20km away??

As I said, it's a no-brainer.

K_P

John R wrote:

That is not any more expensive than Dublin Bus cash fares for similar distances.

The cash fares on Dublin Bus outer suburban routes are €2.10, €3.10 and €4.10

The 33x from Skerries, Rush or Lusk to the city is €3.20 one way

The 84x from Newcastle, Kilcoole or NewtownMK to the city is €3.20 one way.

Why are you quoting fares to places much further out than Ashbourne and saying it's a "similar distance". I live less than HALF the distance to Dublin than someone in Kilcoole, Newtownmountkennedy or Newcastle - I want to pay LESS than them, not the same!! Right now, I pay 30c MORE.

That's why BE need the P45 out of Ashbourne - they don't have to have a fair, equitable fare system; they can, and do, make it up as they go along.

p.s. It never ceases to amaze me how skewed people's perception is of Ashbourne's proximity to Dublin. It's less than 10 minutes from the M50 if you're driving (thanks to a great new road that BE ignores), 40 mins from the Nine Mile Stone (a landmark at the edge of the town) to the Spire on the 7.45 bus (or 7.50, whenever they feel like coming really) and we're officially too close to Dublin to be classed as a commuter town (according to the National Spatial Strategy).

Unfortunately, no-one told the people who send us buses.

John R

K_P wrote:

Rolestown is 1km further from Dublin than Ashbourne, 3km from Ashbourne and yet pay just €1.90 to town. Tyrellstown was just a few fields til 4 years ago, they suddenly got a Dublin Bus service and they also pay €1.90, despite having a miniscule population. That's the same level we want to be at.

Rolestown: 5 inbound and 4 outbound services a day and a peak-time journey of around 1h30. Is that REALLY what you want?

Tyrellstown does not now have a miniscule population and the routes that terminate there also serve large population centres in West Finglas or East Blanchardstown as well as a number of large employment centres.

K_P wrote:

They give us a 5% discount, which is pathetic. Why wouldn't they provide a student discount?

Dublin Bus do not give student discounts on single tickets.

K_P wrote:

And who buys a weekly bus ticket online - and for that matter why should we have to?

You don't have to, but you will get a 10% discount if you do. Seems like a good reason to me.

K_P wrote:

As I said earlier, if DB users living further from Dublin - in Balbriggan, Bray, Maynooth or Blessington - don't have to put up with it, why should we in Ashbourne? How can anyone defend BE's rural, half-baked and unfair "fare structure".

Bray is NOT further than Ashbourne and the other 3 destinations you mention are on the Outer Suburban fare scale which as I already pointed out is not that much less (€3.10 or €4.10 for those destinations) than BE fares for a much slower and less frequent service.


Balbriggan is a very interesting example because it is one of the few places that is served by relatively regular services from both BE (with a higher fare than Ashbourne) and DB. Although the majority of commuting to the city is by rail there is a percentage who do use the bus services and most of those use BE not DB, I guess for most people the quicker journey and the more frequent service is worth the higher fare.

The "unfair fair structure" is in fact pretty much spot on in regards to the cost of providing the service. The truth is that DB get a PSO grant that allowes them to charge fares that are lower than cost price. Bus Eireann's PSO mostly funds the rural bus services that take almost no revenue and are very expensive to run. The Commuter services get little government funding and the express network turns a small profit that is pumped into the other sectors.

K_P wrote:

You obviously don't live in Ashbourne! While on paper they have a 20 min frequency, BE are not set up to deliver this. They rely on contracted buses to fill in the gaps, they inevitably use coaches, the coaches fill up before everyone gets on and I, and dozens of other commuters, are left at the bus stop for an HOUR at peak time. And we're not guaranteed double-deckers on all services because - I s**t you not - the drivers are allowed to pick their buses and if they want a single deck to get home quicker, they take it.

BE do not have nearly enough large capacity buses for all the commuter routes, that is why they are buying more. Dublin Bus do not have nearly enough buses to properly serve their cattchment area either.

The simple fact is that both companies and the communities they serve have been severely let down by successive governments (in particular the current shower who have had the resources to change things) who do not consider public transport to be worthy of proper support.

K_P wrote:

Not to mention the farcical situation we've been presented with on several occasions where a CIE Tours bus has been dispatched on short notice because BE are down a bus in Ash and he turns up, "only looking for people with tickets". Why? Because he has no ticket machine and no cash facility. BE have had their chance and they're pathetic.

Well that is rubbish and if they cannot provide a means to take cash payments then it is their problem not the passengers, unless of course they provide a second bus for the service that will take cash.

K_P wrote:

And if Ashbourne needs buses every 20 minutes (or 12, as they reckon they'll do soon), then we need them at that frequency as well with Dublin Bus. Ashbourne is well-placed for public transport, we just need a company that offer more than "a trip to the big smoke", which is all Bus Eireann seem to do.

Exactly where else do you expect a bus service from Ashbourne to go?

There is a long list of routes on the DB network with much larger population catchments than Ashbourne that badly need a 12min frequency service with little hope of getting one in the near future.

K_P wrote:

It already stops at the North City Business Park in Finglas, Finglas Village, Glasnevin at St. Vincent's School, Whitworth Rd, Dorset St and O'Connell St. Hardly an express service. If stopping along the way helped the route be more feasible, I'm all for it.

All those stops are set-down/pick-up stops for the benefit of people travelling to/from outside the M50 area. Even a direct city bus would serve 40-50 stops between the city and Finglas.

K_P wrote:

If stopping along the way helped the route be more feasible, I'm all for it.

So you wouldn't mind an additional 30-40 mns touring through the housing estates of north Finglas in each direction then?

K_P wrote:

If someone 45km from the city centre can pay €17.80 (or €17.30, not sure which) for 5 days bus travel, €780 for a year's travel and be able to get tickets that work on DARTs, Luases and other Dublin Buses, then why can't people living just 20km away??

The only DB Destination that is anything like 45km from the city is Ballyknockan which is served by one return bus per weekday and nothing on Saturday or Sunday, hardly a fair comparison in any sense.

K_P wrote:

As I said, it's a no-brainer.

What is a no-brainer is the idea that by changing from BE to DB you will magically have a better service, the truth is that DB have even less resources to put in to.

K_P wrote:

Why are you quoting fares to places much further out than Ashbourne and saying it's a "similar distance". I live less than HALF the distance to Dublin than someone in Kilcoole, Newtownmountkennedy or Newcastle - I want to pay LESS than them, not the same!! Right now, I pay 30c MORE.

You do not live less than half the distance of any of them, Newcastle is the furthest at 39k but it only gets 14 return trips a day, NMK gets 3 direct and 13 local services with most of it's services to Dublin being from BE. even Kilcoole only gets 29 return services per day and most of them are extremely slow with off-peak journey times of 1h30 or more.

Ashbourne has 49 return services per day and in comparison to most longer DB routes the service is very quick.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the service to Ashbourne is good enough or that the fares shouldn't be much cheaper. I would support you 100% in demanding a better, quicker and cheaper bus service but your idea that changing to DB would give you that is simply not correct.

When the vote-whores come a knocking I encourage you to demand a better service in all regards but demand the right things; more funding for all services, better bus priority measures in the city and in commuter towns, proper city-centre facilities, proper fare and service integration across the Dublin commuter region and an end to the disgraceful situation where the government department in charge of transport is actively engaged in blocking improvements to services in order to prop-up profits for private companies.

Argueing the wrong point is as bad as not bothering at all. Muddying the issue of poor bus services by demanding that one public bus company is replaced by the other one is not a worthwhile arguement. When it is all boiled down they are both controlled by central government and all that would happen with a change of operator is the colour of the buses' paintwork.