Floating

Scouser in Dub

What are the best conditions for floating on the flop in terms of number of opponents in the hand, I assume that 1 is pretty madatory? How important is position how much easier is it to take a pot away from someone when checked to? Is a stop and go pretty much the same when oop? Is a decision to stop and go pretty much decided before calling the raise preflop? Are dry flops better for floating that dangerous flops?

An example.

A fairly tight player opens for 4xbb in mid position I look down at A5s on the button and call blinds fold heads up to a flop.

Flop comes 964 rainbow with one spade

Player 1 leads for 1/2 the pot is this a good position to float?

My thinking here has been that it is and if he doesn't fire another barrel on the turn I have a good chance to take it away from him as it is likely that this flop has missed him completely so unless he has an over pair which admittedly will make up a good part of his range he is likely to give up on the turn without improvement? Is this spewy?

If I call his bet getting 3/1 with nothing but a chance to take it away on the turn I only need to 25% of the time right?

Say the turn comes another spade giving me the nut flush draw and it is checked to me check behind or bet?

Say the turn comes a 7 giving me the idiot end of a straight draw with 3 to a straight out there check behind or bet?

say the turn comes a brick and it is checked to me

DeadParrot

I find floats very player specific. Its more about putting him on a hand than playing your own draws. The premise is to flat call with the intention of taking it away at a later stage. You really need to have a narrow range to put the opp on though

DeadParrot

this is all in my opinion though, I'd really like to hear from the more experienced cash players

Mr.Plough

after calling the flop bet i always fire strong on the turn after being checked to, no matter what the turn is.

HiCloy

Float players who continuation bet 100% of the time and shut down if called, there are plenty of them out there

If you have a well disguised draw that's good too - eg you have 56, board is J74.

TheRock

I'm sure (hope) I'm not the only one thinking it. Could some please explain what exactly floating means
Another 2+2 buzzword bingo finding its was in here:rolleyes:

I get the idea that its calling light on the flop regardless, or something like that anyway.

shoutman

Floating is calling a bet on the flop in order to set up a bluff on a later street.

Scouser in Dub

What if a hand that we are going to bluff with develops into a big draw on the turn do we continue the same, if we are playing with regs does that disguise our play more?

Mr.Plough

if you have the opportunity to take it down on the turn do so. if you check behind on the turn and dont hit on the river you'l be bet into alot of the time, making you risk more on the river to take the pot, when your opponent may have improved.

thats my oppinion anyway

phantom_lord

when to float is too situation/opponent/feel dependent for a good thread on it to develop i think.

in general, do it against bad tags who c-bet too much.

Scouser in Dub

I was kinda weary of that when I posted PL. I do think that there is some scope for defining the optimum conditions though and bad tags that c-bet too much would be pretty optimal

phantom_lord

it's something you just have to get a feel for more than anything else. be in position for a start. See whether he gives up or fires multiple barrels. Then just think about what kind of flops are likely to have hit him. If you think he's missed then call really lightly.
then try and take down on the turn.

bops

phantom_lord wrote:

when to float is too situation/opponent/feel dependent for a good thread on it to develop i think.

in general, do it against bad tags who c-bet too much.

i use this alot
half the people i play regulary are bad tags who c-bet too much,
the other half are loose passive calling station fish

just seperate into two groups and pick your spots!

i love my local game so much

El Stuntman

bops wrote:

i love my local game so much

is that the infamous 5/10 Wexford game bops?

bops

that 5/10 game died, but there is a new casino in wexford town with a 5/5 game - it's open a month an i haven't dragged my lazy asre there yet - i here it's a ridiculous gamblefest - i really got to go soon!!

nah - my local game is only a 1/2 - but it's too close by and too soft for me to be dragged away - i've played 40 live sessions this year with 28 wins 4 draws and 8 losses - although 15 of them were at different venues - hot hot hot

pok3rplaya

Scouser in Dub wrote:

A fairly tight player opens for 4xbb in mid position ..... I call.....

Well there's your first and biggest mistake right there.

Scouser in Dub

If stacks are deep enough is there not merit in calling a raise preflop with position and a speculative hand that if we raise and get 4bet we are having to fold?

Mr.Plough

its better to open in late position pf when your playing junk

i never call raises with junk

bops

Mr.Plough wrote:

its better to open in late position pf when your playing junk

i never call raises with junk

Point A: no its not! (HectorJellybelly!)
Point B: this is wrong! (Gholimuppet!)

...it is a very successful bluffing tool - since you never do it, you really ought to once in a while - if your image is what i suspect it to be, it will work fine for you

bazwin

The dealer position (known as the "button") is the
best position at the poker table.

The reason is because when you're on the button,
you get to act LAST after the flop... giving you
the chance to see what your opponents do first.

This lets you get a "read" on your opponents at
the table... and decide who has a strong hand, who
has a weak hand, who's bluffing, and so on.

OK, so that's common knowledge.

What's also common knowledge is the fact that LATE
POSITIONING is preferred over EARLY POSITIONING...
because once again, you get to see what your
opponents do first before it's your turn to bet,
raise, call, or fold.

Of course, being on the button is BETTER than just
plain late positioning... because the button
GUARANTEES that you will be LAST TO ACT post-flop.

OK, now here's what is NOT common knowledge...

Once you understand positioning and its enormous
implications, you can begin "improving" your
positioning and setting yourself up for more pots
each game.

The technique is called STEALING THE BUTTON.

It's simple... it's practical... and right when
you're done reading this newsletter you can
immediately start using it.

Stealing the button is LEVERAGING your late
positioning when you're NOT on the button... but
getting all the same benefits as if you WERE on
the button.

Remember, the dealer position is SO POWERFUL
because it means you're LAST to act post-flop.

Being SECOND TO LAST to act isn't nearly as good,
especially considering there's usually only three
or four players to a flop at an 8-man table.

So what you do is make a reasonable pre-flop RAISE
when you're in late positioning... and therefore
force the player on the button to fold.

Having done this, you'll be last to act after the
flop... the same as if you actually were on the
button. (Hence the name, "stealing the button").

OK, let's look at an example so you can see what
I'm talking about:

Let's say you're sitting two seats to the RIGHT of
the button at a 10-man table. The game is $1-2 no
limit Holdem.

Two players limp-in... and you look down at your
cards: J-9 of clubs.

I call hands like these "semi-connectors"--
they're not quite connected... but almost.

The great thing about semi-connectors is that
they're a "hidden hand". When they HIT (straight,
flush, two pair...) your opponents NEVER see it
coming.

You decide to play your Jack-9 suited. Now
remember, there are two players BEHIND you that
will act post-flop if they both call the blinds.

So it's YOUR JOB to make sure they DON'T limp-in.

The solution is to crank up the pressure...

You make it $15 to play. Nothing crazy (after all,
you don't exactly have a monster). You simply want
to force the two players to your left to FOLD...
which will happen most of the time.

Of course, they won't always fold... because
sometimes they'll pick up a big hand. But odds are
they'll fold.

The RESULT, of course, is now YOU have the button.

Well, not the button exactly... but all the
advantages that it brings.

Sure enough, the two players to your left fold,
and Josh-- who's in the big blind-- is the only
caller.

The flop comes out:

10h-8d-Ks

No flush possibilities for you here, but BINGO,
you've just flopped an open-ended straight draw.

This is the type of flop you hoped for.

Now it's on Josh to act first. And this is where
your positioning is so important. Not only do you
get to see what Josh does first... but you also
have the CONTROL in this situation.

Since you made the pre-flop raise, Josh will
likely check the flop to you... giving you the
opportunity to play aggressively and take down
this pot.

No matter what happens after this, you've set
yourself up to win this pot. Sometimes Josh will
pick up a real hand and come out firing... but
usually not.

Sure enough in our example, Josh checks.

You throw out a $30 semi-bluff. This is a bet you
should make even WITHOUT the open-ender... because
you made the pre-flop raise.

Josh mucks it, and you rake the chips... leaving
the table wondering what you had.

That's how you "steal" the button. It's a simple,
surefire way to gain control at the table by
improving your positioning.

There are five main steps you need to know...

1. You need a playable hand.

If you're going to bluff, make it a "semi-bluff"
by raising with a hand that can hit... something
like semi-connectors.

I personally don't like raising with 7-2 offsuit
or crap like that. It seems to me like an "ego
raise" more than a logical play.

Remember, the key is to gain that extra bit of
control and power by acting LAST after the flop.

2. Force out the player on the button (and
possibly the player to his right).

The whole point to stealing the button is to
ACTUALLY STEAL THE BUTTON. If you make a wussy
raise that doesn't scare anyone, you've failed.

If you're one seat to the right of the button, you
want to raise enough to force the player on the
button out. If you're TWO seats to the right, then
you've got to force out both players to your left.

One of the "secrets" to this process is to ALWAYS
pay attention to the pre-flop betting patterns of
your opponents on the left.

If you're sitting on the right of "Tight Tim" who
only sees flops when he's got pocket pairs, then
you can steal the button quite often.

On the other hand, if you're on the right of a
LOOSE player, you won't be able to steal the
button nearly as much.

So pay attention.

3. After the flop, your opponents will usually
check to you.

Notice if someone bets into you, beware. That's a
red flag. Usually players will check into you
since you raised pre-flop.

When players check into you that gives you the
power to either BET and try to steal the pot right
there... OR... get a free turn card by also
checking.

While I normally recommend a bet, you can check to
mix it up once in awhile or in the case that
you're getting short-stacked.

4. Don't get pot-committed.

Remember, stealing the button is a simple
technique that improves your position and sets you
up to have a BETTER CHANCE at winning the hand.

Don't get stupid. Don't get stubborn and bet any
amount in hopes of bluffing out someone with a
real hand.

Like I said, you need a playable hand to steal the
button in the first place.

Don't become pot-committed... Never bet so much
that it's PAINFUL to fold your cards after the
flop.

5. Sometimes you don't need to raise to steal the
button.

Often the blinds will be high enough where you
figure simply CALLING the big blind will get you
the button (this is especially true when you're to
the right of a tight player).

Also, someone in front of you might raise the pot
enough that all you have to do is CALL THE RAISE
and you'll get the button.

OK, so that's the process...

Here are the two types of situations where you DO
want to steal the button...

DO STEAL THE BUTTON WHEN:

1. You sense weakness and want to steal the pot on
a bluff or hidden hand.

2. You have a good hand that you want to play
post-flop.

On the other hand...

DO NOT STEAL THE BUTTON WHEN:

1. You have a poor hand and you sense someone
else has a strong hand.

2. You think someone to your left will call a
raise no matter what (that defeats the purpose).

The MOST IMPORTANT lesson you can get from all
this is to realize that winning poker depends on
ALL THE LITTLE THINGS.

Stealing the button is just a little technique for
setting yourself up for better positioning... it's
not a "game changing" strategy that will double
your poker profits or anything.

But when you combine it with ALL THE OTHER LITTLE
THINGS-- like establishing the right table image,
throwing out feeler bets, representing the flop at
the right times, buying free cards, picking up
betting patterns, spotting tells, and more-- then
you will become a DYNAMIC and POWERFUL poker
player...

AND THEN your poker profits will double.

A lot of amateurs base their games on the "big
hands" and might get lucky once in awhile. But
over time, the REAL MONEY always goes to the
GRINDERS... the guys who know how to CONSISTENTLY
take down pots.

bops

^^^^^^^

WOW Look!!!!!!!

poker strategy!!

what the fu*k is that doin' here???

ianmc38

Waddup with that layout?

bops

copy and paste me thinks

breadmonkey

Josh, lol

Mr.Plough

bops wrote:

copy and paste me thinks

blatently.



also what are you on about in your post where you quote mine. you lost me a bit there.





should have changed josh to anto or something

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bops

Mr.Plough wrote:

blatently.

...it was my bad attempt at sarcasm!

Mr.Plough wrote:

also what are you on about in your post where you quote mine. you lost me a bit there.

floating like most bluffing techniques are most sucessful when used on rare occasions. I will get caught bluffing a lot more often than you because i am known to bluff more (i'm guessing). You say that you never call a raise with junk - so if you do, the very odd time, you will be much more likely to pull off a floating bluff.

actually, the benifits are two-fold for you!!

say you call a reraise with position 10 times; 9 times with stong hands and once just floating. The time you float, people will not be expecting you to have a weak hand, and therefore you will be capable of pulling off the bluff.

On the other hand, if you get caught bluffing here, you will be more likely to get called when you are actually strong (the other 90% of the time)

...advertising in a roundabout kinda way!

...you follow??

BuChan

i think floating is probably the most fun part of the game, like everyone is saying it works best of people who cbet too much or tight passive folks. if you play against the same players all the time it's easier because many peoples betting pattern is plain to see. a lot of conservative more tight players bet slightly weak when they are weak between 1/2 to 2/3s when cbetting or betting a hand there not in love with and then bet 2/3+ when they are stong. more aggressive players do exactly the opposite, they make pot sized bets with draws and on bluff cbets and bet small with strong hands. this is pretty common knowledge i guess elephant/lion/jackal stuff really but if pick a few people you play against regularly you'll see they just can't help falling into the pattern they've made for themselves and you can float them with a pretty high success rate.
answering your question i think you're float should rely more on your read of your opponent's hand rather than whether the board is draw heavy or not, try to float them if they appear weak. if you flat call behind someone on a draw heavy board they might put you on a draw and bet into you on a blank turn with a weak holding putting you to the test. if you're floating somebody you should always bet the turn if checked to you.... that's kind of the point if you have a back door flush draw and you hit your 4 card colour on the turn you have to bet! what more could you ask for! i think you have to bet the turn no matter what, it's just too unusual not to it will look like a bluff. over the course of playing how often will you flat call a bet on the flop, check behind on the turn and then bet the river if checked to, i think a lot of players will call you down pretty light here, it's such a suspicious betting pattern. betting the turn when checked to is a nobrainer it's firing on the river if called on the turn and checked to once more. then a really tough decision has to be made, it's much more read specific what do you think you're oppponent has and how likely is it that they'll call you. how much money do they have left vs how much they already put in the pot. was the opponent on to you and are they inducing a bluff happy to call you down? floating is fun but tricky and costly if misused.

peeko

news letter o.O

Roy is that you!?

Mr.Plough

bops wrote:

...it was my bad attempt at sarcasm!



floating like most bluffing techniques are most sucessful when used on rare occasions. I will get caught bluffing a lot more often than you because i am known to bluff more (i'm guessing). You say that you never call a raise with junk - so if you do, the very odd time, you will be much more likely to pull off a floating bluff.

actually, the benifits are two-fold for you!!

say you call a reraise with position 10 times; 9 times with stong hands and once just floating. The time you float, people will not be expecting you to have a weak hand, and therefore you will be capable of pulling off the bluff.

On the other hand, if you get caught bluffing here, you will be more likely to get called when you are actually strong (the other 90% of the time)

...advertising in a roundabout kinda way!

...you follow??

yea i still prefer to be the opener and be in control of the hand

dvdfan

peeko wrote:

news letter o.O

Roy is that you!?

Yep looks very like the Roy Rounder Newsletter spam

bazwin

Well spotted DVDFAN....just wanted to see what the reation would be....