To Fender or not to Fender?

Johnny M

Oh wise gear-heads of boards !

I need your advice & recommendations for a new amp.
I should (touch wood) be gigging soon enough in a covers band.. doing a mix of classic stuff like stones, doors, floyd, beatles and more modern like killers, strokes, kings of leon, artics etc. y’know the crowd pleasers

Current set up is fine guitar wise but amp end of things not ideal for the above set.. I’ve a Marshall DSL401 combo ..which has a great crunch channel(s) for rock n blues but the clean channel is lacking imo ..it doesn’t sparkle. It don’t twang . and the reverb aint great either

I need a gorgeous clean .I need a Fender baby ..yeah ! Or do I ??
Thinking of a combo like blues deluxe or Hot Rod deluxe/deville. They seem to be popular in a lot of bands.

So question is , Fender or not to Fender?
Any other recommendations for a cracking fender-esque clean amp?
Or even maybe there’s an alternative like sell the Marshall and get something like a boogie amp for tones that cover all the bases..? but then I wouldn’t have a spare amp… and boogies are pricey. hmmm decisions decisions.

Your thoughts, feedback etc appreciated
Cheers. J.

Btw I've an ad up in wanted section of adverts.ie if anyone has one..cash waiting

Karl Hungus

Johnny M wrote:

Any other recommendations for a cracking fender-esque clean amp?
Or even maybe there’s an alternative like sell the Marshall and get something like a boogie amp for tones that cover all the bases..? but then I wouldn’t have a spare amp… and boogies are pricey. hmmm decisions decisions.

It's probably a cliché at this stage that whenever someone looks for a recommendation on an amp, ENGL always comes up. But, they're just really good amps.

Anyway, despite ENGL being pretty much the amp for Metal these days, they have a phenominally good clean channel too. Now, I've owned a Mesa Boogie, and while the cleans are certainly very good, way better than any Marshall cleans, the ENGL cleans have the Boogie's beaten.

This'll give you an idea of some of the cleans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsYfLjsHBDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl3g8seYy74

I'd say that if you're inclined to ditch the Marshall, and get a more versatile amp, then definetly try out an ENGL, I'd probably recommend a Screamer 50 combo seeing as you're obviously not into high gain stuff.

Take a look here: http://www.engl-amps.com/e330.html

SCREAMER 50 COMBO E 330
If you want to play smashing rock with tamed gain, this should be the amp of your choice. Killing tube tone and incredible handling ease are the trademarks of this amp-line. Sparkeling clean, harmonic crunch and powerful leads are the goodies youíll get from our SCREAMER.

Voodu Child

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now, I've owned a Mesa Boogie, and while the cleans are certainly very good, way better than any Marshall cleans, the ENGL cleans have the Boogie's beaten.

Im a Mesa man, so obviously I disagree with Karl My Mesa F-50 has better cleans than just about any amp ive played..:p

That said, Boogies are awful expensive in this country, so I can definitely second the ENGL recommendation.

As for the Fender thing, yeah, Hotrods are good, solid amps, not a lot wrong with them at all, if theyre in your tonal ballpark.

The peavey classic series are pretty similar in circuit design too, obviously not identical, but a great amp as well.

Karl Hungus

voodoo_child wrote:

Im a Mesa man, so obviously I disagree with Karl My Mesa F-50 has better cleans than just about any amp ive played..:p

I owned a Nomad myself, and it had some very, very good cleans indeed, I can't fault 'em. But I my Fireball, well, the cleans just sound... God, how can I put this? More shiny. Yeah, shiny.

Voodu Child

Karl Hungus wrote:

I owned a Nomad myself, and it had some very, very good cleans indeed, I can't fault 'em. But I my Fireball, well, the cleans just sound... God, how can I put this? More shiny. Yeah, shiny.

Definitely, the Nomad 45 was the runt of the Mesa litter, im sure the ENGL has it beat hands down in most regards. But in fairness, EL84s arent know for their clean sounds, the Nomad 55 would probably be a closer match to the ENGL in terms of cleans. If you can get one that actually works

Karl Hungus

voodoo_child wrote:

Definitely, the Nomad 45 was the runt of the Mesa litter, im sure the ENGL has it beat hands down in most regards. But in fairness, EL84s arent know for their clean sounds, the Nomad 55 would probably be a closer match to the ENGL in terms of cleans. If you can get one that actually works

Yeah, fair enough so.

Either way, if you can find a Boogie at a good price, then you really can't go wrong, they're excellent amps, just over-priced.

Giblet

To be honest, a Fender guitar through a good Fender amp is fantastic sounding.

Voodu Child

Karl Hungus wrote:

Either way, if you can find a Boogie at a good price, then you really can't go wrong, they're excellent amps, just over-priced.

Absolutely. I think the situation is the same for the likes of ENGL and Diezel in the US - it just costs an awful lot to ship a 30kg box across the atlantic (either way)

Mesa Boogies start at around E700 in the US out of curiosity. I think the same model lists for E1500 or so on thomann, and probably 2k+ over here.

Ravelleman

Now I love my ENGL Thunder as much as Karl loves his Fireball - the cleans are indeed excellent - but I really think you can't beat a nice Fender Deluxe Reverb or Vibrolux Custom for cleans. I played both at length over the summer and still have one or t'other on my hit list.

judas101

For bluesy twangs fender amps are your only man.

The guitarist in my band plays a tele through a 4x10 deville and it sounds amazing.

ENGL are good and all but for what youre looking for i reckon fender is your man.

Den_M

I can't believe the man is looking for a nice clean blues-y amp and he's been recommended an Engl and Mesa Boogie, WTF!

Giblet

Den_M wrote:

I can't believe the man is looking for a nice clean blues-y amp and he's been recommended an Engl and Mesa Boogie, WTF!

Metal Guitarists :rolleyes:

Voodu Child

Den_M wrote:

I can't believe the man is looking for a nice clean blues-y amp and he's been recommended an Engl and Mesa Boogie, WTF!

I think there might be such a thing as two channel amps these days. Does clean AND dirty..:eek: What an age we live in...
Leo fender would be rolling in his grave

Savman

There's not a situation known to mankind where the answer to this question would be "not to Fender".:D

The were cool once, and shall be again

Ancient1

Johnny M wrote:

I need a gorgeous clean .I need a Fender baby ..yeah ! Or do I ?? Thinking of a combo like blues deluxe or Hot Rod deluxe/deville. They seem to be popular in a lot of bands.

The HRDx is a great amp but you should be aware that while the clean channel is excellent, it is not that classic Fender clean - it cannot be because the amp is an entirely different beast compared to the other "classic" models, like the Twin Reverb etc. The HRDx is the meanest, growliest and has the most low end out of the 3 (I think) in the Hot Rod Series. The Deville sounds brighter by virture of it's 4x10 cab.
It's a brilliant amp and I love mine, but if I wanted the holy grail of Fender cleans, I'd have to get a mortgage raping vintage model and take a million other factors into account. But then again, none of us has Eric Johnson's ears so nobody can tell the difference anyways.

Johnny M wrote:

So question is , Fender or not to Fender?

Always Fender.

Edit: Amen, Savman, you my man!

jimi_t

Why not mic-up a MicroCube if you're using a PA?

Fingers Mcginty

jimi_t wrote:

Why not mic-up a MicroCube if you're using a PA?

have you tried that yourself?

punchdrunk

fender super reverb or fender twin reverb...forget ENGL!!
actually there's a 70's fender twin in the buy and sell for €500!!

Kenny_D

Peavey Classic 50 might also be worth checking out. Very similar to the Fender deville/deluxe

Johnny M

Cheers for the tip off punchdrunk !! I just rang the number and got voicemail for the 70's Twin in B&S...fingers crossed.

Thanks for all the feedback lads.wow a ton of posts there.

So I'm hearing go fender but not Hot Rod series...
& ENGL, Mesa & Peavey basically as options.Must say I tried ENGL in dublin and its pretty good clean for such a beast of an amp. But it doesnt really twang like a fender. maybe its the tubes or something? Mesa I have no experience with but reading the latest mags the new Express 5:50 combo is meant to have cleans that match the best vintage fenders. .mmm GAS.but its 1850 on thomann.

Voodoo ..have you experience buying them in US? how much could I import that model for do you think?post a link if you can cheers.

Peavey I 've tried a delta blues 210..twas pretty dang good ..but fender blues deluxe pipped it . and they're nearly the same price as fenders anyway.(?)

Ravelleman ...cheers which did you prefer deluxe or verb?

J.

Voodu Child

Johnny M wrote:

Voodoo ..have you experience buying them in US?

Yeah.
PM me if you need info, ive got a copy of the Mesa/Boogie 2007 US Dealer pricelist. I have the shipping weight of all their amps too, so i can give you a ballpark shipping cost.

Karl Hungus

As I understand it, Johnny, you're lacking decent cleans from your rig, but you're happy with the dirty sounds you're getting, so I'm assuming that you are talking about gigging both the Marshall and Fender in order to cover your bases? Is this right?

I have to say, it would make a lot more sense just to get a 2 channel amp that has both a good clean and a good overdrive sound.

Doctor J

Yeah, but he's looking for more than just good

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

Yeah, but he's looking for more than just good

I didn't say there wouldn't be a compromise if he didn't want to have to have a more complicated, 2 amp rig.

Quattroste

I have to say, it would make a lot more sense just to get a 2 channel amp that has both a good clean and a good overdrive sound.

Mesa Lonestar Special. You should be able to pick one up from the US (I did) for less that $1500. Shipping is about $300. That's €1350 plus the VAT and import tax on top of that if you get caught for it! But you'll ****ing love it

fish-head

'A pint of Fender is your only man.' -Ronnie Drew

Johnny M

Karl...Yeah I know what you're saying ..easier to have 1 versatile amp.
But ...I like my Marshall , dont really wanna flog it as i 've got my settings n stuff down ...and it does rock.
I think I'll be ok with 2 amps as one (fender) will be for classic-indie gigs, and the marshall will be for separate rock gigs if I need it later. That way I'll have a backup amp as well? And I'll just have to outlay 500 or so bucks. rather than sell the marshall and have to add 1000 for a mesa then wait for it to arrive etc.

punchdrunk

also there's tonnes of pedals out there to make a fender amp distort like a marshall/boogie/dumble/whatever
i haven't seen any that does the reverse!
get yourself an MI audio tube zone or something and your laughing!

DublinWriter

Fender have been trading off a famous heritage for years now and the account is beginning to get a little overdrawn.

I bought a 1974 re-issue new American built Telecaster in Holland about 4 years ago and it sounded horrific because of an earthing problem. I had to get Derrick Nelson to do a complete re-wiring job on it, along with the cheaper Mexican Tele that I own.

Both now sound just as good as an Ibanez does off the shelf.

punchdrunk

i've yet to play an ibanez that I wouldn't gladly swap for a squier tele but to each their own I suppose!
actually I played a jetking or something that was quirky,not too shabby but they can keep their RG'S and prestige whatevers,like lookin at a magazine fully of willies,they just do nothin for me!

Savman

punchdrunk wrote:

also there's tonnes of pedals out there to make a fender amp distort like a marshall/boogie/dumble/whatever
i haven't seen any that does the reverse!

That's actually a good point, lead sounds come in all shapes and sizes but cleans are the holy grail

TelePaul

DublinWriter wrote:

Fender have been trading off a famous heritage for years now and the account is beginning to get a little overdrawn.

I bought a 1974 re-issue new American built Telecaster in Holland about 4 years ago and it sounded horrific because of an earthing problem. I had to get Derrick Nelson to do a complete re-wiring job on it, along with the cheaper Mexican Tele that I own.

Both now sound just as good as an Ibanez does off the shelf.

Did the Derek Nelson job set you back much? I don't think you can be too critical of Fender for not changing their initial design....designs that are so succesful from the offset are hard to change.

fish-head

I think what DW is referring to is the tradeoff in making more and more guitars with less good quality components (caps, pots, wiring etc..).

TelePaul

fish-head wrote:

I think what DW is referring to is the tradeoff in making more and more guitars with less good quality components (caps, pots, wiring etc..).

I don't think that's relevant...I don't know why anyone would buy a guitar without trying it to make sure they liked it. And I don't know what 'more and more' refers to.

Johnny M

Well I'd throw my 2 cents into the Tele camp over Ibanez anyday but its each to their own..I dont play metal so I dont appreciate an Ibanez I guess. In fact if I had to pick my favorite guitar out of all i own I would pick my tele .Its just got the Mojo ! but thats another thread...lets try keep it to Amps !! Good point by Punchdrunk ..best to start with a sweet clean and use peds to distort ..rather than the reverse .I think the fact that marshall started out as copies of fender amps says it all really? And the most revered Marshalls are the early series that probably sound most like souped up bassmans or whatever...

Voodu Child

punchdrunk wrote:

also there's tonnes of pedals out there to make a fender amp distort like a marshall/boogie/dumble/whatever
i haven't seen any that does the reverse!
get yourself an MI audio tube zone or something and your laughing!

If you could get a clean amp to distort like a boogie/dumble/marshall using a pedal, then there wouldnt be such a thing as two/three channel amps.

Manufacturers would save all the money they 'waste' designing the extra circuits, gain stages & tone stacks, and just glue a 50euro DS-1 into their amps.

Like Hungus said, there's plenty of amps that have amazing clean AND dirty channels. There doesnt have to be a compromise.

Karl Hungus

punchdrunk wrote:

also there's tonnes of pedals out there to make a fender amp distort like a marshall/boogie/dumble/whatever

No there aren't.

The closest you can come is digital modelling, but even then, it's just not the same thing as an actual Marshall or Boogie.

TelePaul

Karl Hungus wrote:

No there aren't.

The closest you can come is digital modelling, but even then, it's just not the same thing as an actual Marshall or Boogie.

See those new Fender/Boss collaborations?

It wasn't me!

Tbh, the well-known Marshall sounds are the 1959 SLP and the JCM800. If I ever heard a Fender roar and snarl like those two, I'd be plenty taken aback.

Karl Hungus

TelePaul wrote:

See those new Fender/Boss collaborations?

Yes, the 59 Bassman and 65 Deluxe Reverb in pedal form... Somehow I doubt that they'll make a Fender sound like a Mesa Boogie.

TelePaul

Karl Hungus wrote:

Yes, the 59 Bassman and 65 Deluxe Reverb in pedal form... Somehow I doubt that they'll make a Fender sound like a Mesa Boogie.

Was just throwing it out on the topic of amp sims.

fish-head

A Bassman would do a Marshall type thing since Jim Marshall copied the Bassman for his amps.

Voodu Child

fish-head wrote:

A Bassman would do a Marshall type thing since Jim Marshall copied the Bassman for his amps.

Jim Marshall copied the bassman circuit for his very earliest amps.

By the time he was making amps that would be now considered to have the 'Marshall tone', he had long since switched from 6L6s to cheaper british EL34s, and had to make a tonne of circuit changes in the process to accomodate the El34s. He had also dumped valve rectification.

A bassman can sound flipping great, but theres not a chance it will nail a 'marshall' tone.

fish-head

Fine! Piss all over my clueless theory!

Johnny M

Ok lads a bit more on this topic ...I'm looking at a lot of amps on the web.. but of course its impossible to know just from the spec what they will sound like !(or is it?) E.g. Peavey classic or delta blues ...they seem based on the fender tweed style amp but I notice the output tubes are different so I am suspicious ..they use EL84 tubes in the output stage?

Are the tubes a big factor ? I see most of the Fender tube series have the following tubes: pre amp: 12AX7, Output:GT6V6 .....so in saying that if I'm looking at amps that use EL84 will they give me a fenderish sound ?

My marshall has pre amp: ECC83 and output: EL84 ....so I'm a bit doubtful of buying an amp with that tube now>?make sense?

Soo what I want to know is what primarily makes a fender amp sound like a fender amp ???

Voodu Child

Fender use 6V6s in their smaller amps. They are sometimes called 'baby 6L6s'. Honestly, an amp with 6V6s is never going to sound exactly like an amp with 6L6s. That said, no two fender amps usually sound exactly alike anyway.

EL84s don't have any real relation to the 6L6/6V6 family of vacuum tubes. However, while they are sometimes called 'baby EL34s', they could certainly get closer to a fender twang than a big EL34. The main thing with EL84s is that they have very low headroom, they break-up very early on when you push the volume.

Technically, you won't get the classic fender clean without a 6L6, but that depends on how picky you are, and even how familiar you are with the 'fender sound'. Best thing is try a bunch of amps out for yourself.

Fingers Mcginty

fish-head wrote:

Fine! Piss all over my clueless theory!

*LOL*