Student fees

brianthebard

Have any parties suggested a return to fees? So I can know not to vote for them like.

InFront

Noel Dempsey, the ex Fianna Fail Minister for Education suggested doing this (with a means test) a few years ago but that idea was quickly knocked over the head and buried when the media got a hold of it.

I think it would be electoral suicide, I don't think anyone would touch the issue at the moment, well not in their election manifestos anyway.
I imagine at some stage a Government will introduce a scheme like the current UK model, but it would take a brave (or deluded) Government to promise it before an election.

Anyway, as for track-record, the current Government are the only guys who have come out in favour of it in the past few years.

brianthebard

Yeah that's what I figured, its probably the issue that would affect me most personally if it were to come in though. Course there's no way any canvassers would say that their party wants to bring them in at some stage if I were to ask them. I'll just have to look at broader policies and see who's in favour of keeping them.

The_Minister

Garrett Fitzgerald (ex-FG Taoiseach) recently called for the introduction of 4th Year-and-up fees. FG was not happy.

AFAIK It breaks down like this:
PDs - Against on economic and fairness grounds.
Labour -Against on fairness and Ideology grounds
All Others - Against on "We lose votes grounds"

brianthebard

Damn I could not deal with fees being introduced. Good to see that none of the parties are really thinking about it. I only really asked the question because I remembered the suggestion in the news a few months ago.

The_Minister

brianthebard wrote:

Damn I could not deal with fees being introduced. Good to see that none of the parties are really thinking about it. I only really asked the question because I remembered the suggestion in the news a few months ago.

Every expert group says they should be introduced. There are good arguements for introducing them, but on balence I think it's better that we don't.

InFront

All Others - Against on "We lose votes grounds"

Well of course, it was under a Fine Gael Taoiseach, and the rainbow coalition that free fees were introduced to begin with.
A reintroduction of fees by them, (and with Labour), would be completely off the wall. In that situation, free fees are almost definitely here to stay come economic rain or shine.

However, we do know that the current Government have a dodgy record here. And if there's a downturn in the economy, it might be too much for them to handle. The last time they tried reintroduce fees was just over two years ago, by the time the process was implemented it would have been too close to an election and they might have got a slap on the wrist.

Give them a five year free rein again, and you just never know.

RainyDay

The_Minister wrote:

Every expert group says they should be introduced.

SUch as?

thebman

Well given the ever increasing registration & services fee (or whatever its called) for colleges, I think they are working on just making that so large that it is basically a fee. Went up a lot in the 5 years I attended college (graduated last year) so I think that is how they'll get round it.

InFront

That's just the college registration fee, which has nothing to do with free fees. It varies between colleges as far as I know, the RC$I charge is particularly high *cough*.
But it has nothing to do with tuition fees, the Government still pay 100% tuition fees as always as long as you satisfy all of the usual requirements. That registration charge is an administration thing, if it's increased it won't be the Government doing it, it's your college or university.

brianthebard

Brim4brim, where you studying in Maynooth? As Infront says the fees paid at registration go straight to the college.

Registration fee is set by the Government. It goes towards registration, examinations, and student services (plus anything else that the college sees relevant to be under these very general headings). If you're paying extra, chances are it's a levy for a sports hall, or student centre, USI membership, or something else.

ninty9er

Myth wrote:

Registration fee is set by the Government. It goes towards registration, examinations, and student services (plus anything else that the college sees relevant to be under these very general headings). If you're paying extra, chances are it's a levy for a sports hall, or student centre, USI membership, or something else.

I got my €800 back this year. It's the first year there was a fees only grant scale and at €46,700 limit that certainly qualifies all of those who could be said to be socially or economically disadvantaged. Maintainence grants also increased by 3% on average over the previous year and the Top-up grant for those most in need increased by just over 23%.

All of those income limits also increase €4,525 for each extra member of the household who is studying at 3rd level. A more than 5% increase on the previous year.

InFront wrote:

Noel Dempsey, the ex Fianna Fail Minister for Education suggested doing this (with a means test) a few years ago but that idea was quickly knocked over the head and buried when the media got a hold of it.

I think it would be electoral suicide, I don't think anyone would touch the issue at the moment, well not in their election manifestos anyway.
I imagine at some stage a Government will introduce a scheme like the current UK model, but it would take a brave (or deluded) Government to promise it before an election.

Anyway, as for track-record, the current Government are the only guys who have come out in favour of it in the past few years.

FF didn't approve of this, but it was a recommendation of a review of the Irish 3rd level system at the time so had to be discussed. There is an argument for means testing fees above about €100-150k household income limit, but I don't think that would bring much money back into the system in all reality, so it's really unlikely to happen until the current generation of 3rd level students are parents. We will at that stage have a workforce that is extremely educated and highly paid and in a situation to cope with such financial pressures. It would obviously still be means tested and allow for increased grants to those who need them.

ninty9er

ninty9er wrote:

Maintainence grants also increased by 3% on average over the previous year and the Top-up grant for those most in need increased by just over 23%.

While I'm always happy to see the grant increase (particularly the Top-up grant), many people who receive a grant only receive over €1,245 for the entire academic year. Even those on the highest level of the grant (almost €6,000) receive an insufficient amount of assistance to cover them for the year. Taking into account stationary, transport, food, accommodation, the cost will be much higher then €6,000.

In fact, I don't know one person who is on the grant who doesn't have some form of a part-time job as well. I'm sure someone will pipe up on this forum, but my point is that many students who receive financial assistance through grants still have to finance their way through college, which, depending how much they work, could have an adverse effect on their education.

The_Minister

Myth, I must say that I never saw the grant as being there to cover all costs, I see it as merely meant to help out.

The_Minister

The_Minister wrote:

Myth, I must say that I never saw the grant as being there to cover all costs, I see it as merely meant to help out.

Perhaps my idealism is getting the best of me again

Time Magazine

The_Minister wrote:

Myth, I must say that I never saw the grant as being there to cover all costs, I see it as merely meant to help out.

There exist, I'm sure you'll agree, many people who are given a substantial amount (say, €100 a week) to pay for their food etc while in college.

Those on 100% grant get the grand sum of €21 a week and thus really have to work to support themselves.

Think that's a fair race?

Agent J

brianthebard wrote:

Have any parties suggested a return to fees? So I can know not to vote for them like.

FF have tried and will try again.

"Fees are off the Agenda for the lifetime of this government"

I think it was Bertie who said that after it was killed last time back in early 2003.

The media latched onto the Fees issues as an example of all the cuts and stuff that were made in the wake of the FF/PD win in 2002. A few high profile student protests we held up by the media as examples as a backlash aganist the increases and introductions of fees. The PD's saw which way the wind was turning and opposed the idea of fees and Dempsey was suddenly very isolated. He was then moved from education that summer in 03 i believe.

As someone who was around for that battle as well as several other Maynoothians we knew we only had put it off for another few years.Noel Dempsey couldnt make a move on any Campus without being harrassed.

Before the last election in 2002 i was a little 1st year but i made the same call then as i do now.

If FF are re-elected the Issue of 3rd level fees will raise its head within 12 months.

Also historical note.

After the 2002 election the Registration fee was increased by the FF/PD government 69%. Watch for a similar moves this time.

Agent J

ninty9er wrote:

FF didn't approve of this, but it was a recommendation of a review of the Irish 3rd level system at the time so had to be discussed. There is an argument for means testing fees above about €100-150k household income limit, but I don't think that would bring much money back into the system in all reality, so it's really unlikely to happen until the current generation of 3rd level students are parents. We will at that stage have a workforce that is extremely educated and highly paid and in a situation to cope with such financial pressures. It would obviously still be means tested and allow for increased grants to those who need them.

Sorry i must correct this.

FF did approve this. Bertie back Noel Dempsy at the time this happened.

The whole issue of looking at means testing for high income limits only came about as a fall back position a few months later once enough pressure was put on them to drop it.
Then the arguement came that they wouldnt get a lot of money from it and used that as the exuse to drop it.

The whole high income means testing was smokescreen to cover the retreat otherwise it would have been raised at the start of the whole thing.

Nightwish

When I was in 1st year fees were about €300 and in 2nd year they jumped to approx €800 and rose every year subsequent to that. I never qualified for a grant during college and worked 3 days a week to support myself, so if fees were brought in I would never have been able to continue with my education. In that regard I would totally support the retention of the free fees scheme, and I do believe that to return to college fees would be politically disastrous.

Ibid

Ibid wrote:

There exist, I'm sure you'll agree, many people who are given a substantial amount (say, €100 a week) to pay for their food etc while in college.

Those on 100% grant get the grand sum of €21 a week and thus really have to work to support themselves.

Think that's a fair race?

I have never been eligible to get the grant.I live in Leitrim(apparntly socially deprived).My parents are not eligible for the grant as they have a x00000 mortgage..The grant is abused in NUIG.90% of students I know on grant could survive without it.

I work every weekend for my keep in college.It annoys me so much when I see people from Kerry/Donegal get this grant and get an advantage ovr me when they have not to work for themselves to survive the year financely in college.

Nightwish

The grant scheme needs a major overhaul. I had classmates whos parents ran pubs, had 2nd homes in France, had their own cars etc who all qualified for grants.

RainyDay

Nightwish wrote:

The grant scheme needs a major overhaul. I had classmates whos parents ran pubs, had 2nd homes in France, had their own cars etc who all qualified for grants.

Self employed people find it fairly easy to manipulate their accounts to show income below the threshold for the years in question.

hardCopy

Well it looks like FF have tried to eliminate the threat of any backlash from students by calling the election on a Thursday.

Are there many students on here who won't make it home to vote?

BTW, I am a student but I live at home so it won't affect me directly, but will affect a lot of my friends.

brianthebard

Its in the middle/near the end of exams so it will still affect a lot of people. Fortunately for me I'll be finished and home by then but a lot of people won't be and having it during exams means they won't be able to go home.

My exams start on the 21st of May so it does depend for me when it will be called. If it's the 24th, I might be able to make it home but I don't know.

/edit: Some students might be eligible for a postal vote. This is robbed off the ucdsu.net website. I'm not sure about the latest date for application for postal voting, but it's worth mentioning in this thread at least.

You may be eligible for a postal vote..

Postal Voting for Election '07

This link below is from the Citizens Information website.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/voting/registering-to-vote#howtoapply

You will normally be required to vote in person at an official voting centre but you may be eligible for a postal vote. You may also be eligible for a postal vote if you cannot go to a polling station because:

*Of a physical illness or disability.

*You are studying full time at an educational institution away from your home address where you are registered.

The latest date for receipt of applications is two days after the date of dissolution of the Dáil when the election period begins.The application form is available below in a link and must be filled out and authenticiated by your college administration.

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/ElectionsElectoralRegister/ElectoralRegister/ElectoralRegisterForms/File,3906,en.pdf

So the application form will need to be filled out and sent to your home constituency local authority.The list of all local authorities with the relevant addresses are below.

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/wvNavView/Local+Government+Authorities?OpenDocument&Lang=

If you want to make sure that your name is on the Register of Electors then you can check at this website below or go to your post office and Gardai station.

http://www.checktheregister.ie/

Time Magazine

It has been called for the 24th, Dónal.

Ah! So it has. Feckin' Bertie.

Time Magazine

Deleted User wrote:

I have never been eligible to get the grant.I live in Leitrim(apparntly socially deprived).My parents are not eligible for the grant as they have a x00000 mortgage.

My dad's from Leitrim, it's not that bad . Your parents' mortgage does not impact on the grants system. Perhaps it should, but it's based on their income, not their expenditure.

The grant is abused in NUIG.90% of students I know on grant could survive without it.

All the more reason to overhaul the system.

I work every weekend for my keep in college.It annoys me so much when I see people from Kerry/Donegal get this grant and get an advantage ovr me when they have not to work for themselves to survive the year financely in college.

Get over yourself . I'm the youngest of six kids and both my parents are basically retired (Dad is still self-employed, but takes it easy as he's in his 60s). Not only do I work weekends, I work mornings (as in my shift is done before 9am) after a commute of over an hour to finance myself. I live 14 miles from my college, so the State give me the grand sum of €23 a week to pay my way. My train ticket costs (€3.60 x 5) = €18, so the State pay me a nett amount of €5 a week to pay my for food, books, stationary, clothes, entertainment €40 credit card levy, €10 ATM levy...

Aren't we such a welfare state.

Agent J

This is all the more reason why students should get out and vote and get everyone you know to. Its utterly defeatist to plead the " i cant get home in time" for two reasons

1)Supplemental register
2)Polling stations are open from 7am to 10pm.

You still have time to get on the supplemental register and vote locally.

Its form RA2 i think and you can get it from your local council. Just google it.

You have till the end of the week i think to have your form filled in and stamped and sent in.

Also anyone in UCD may fall into Mcdowells area(Open to correction). He should be taken out at all costs. Students should consider themselves with the responsabilty to give to the government between the eyes.

Anyone in maynooth should register locally and keep FF out of northkildare.

randylonghorn

Folks, just a reminder that free fees only apply to full-time students.

Part-time students pay the full whack. For many people, going to college when they were 17 / 18 wasn't an option, and especially before fees were abolished. Going back full-time now, when they probably have mortgages / families, isn't an option either. So they struggle through a part-time course, trying to work, study and keep a family going at the same time ... and pay full fees for the privilege (around €13,000 in total for a part-time BA at the moment; other disciplines may be higher). About the only bit of a break they get is that they can claim fees against tax (i.e. they can get 20% back).

I know older students going this route who:
(a) put their own children through college before the introduction of free fees;
(b) are now supporting the free fees initiative for other peoples children through their taxes;
(c) and are paying full fees for their own course.

Royally screwed or what?! :rolleyes:

Even the OECD review agreed that this was totally discriminatory, and that the same rules should apply to full-time and part-time students. Unfortunately, they tended to lean towards re-introducing fees for everyone, which wouldn't be very popular, or indeed my own preferred option.

And while the USI and the SUs in the various colleges will mention this issue from time to time in passing, it's not exactly at the top of their priority list. After all, these are part-time students who are already chasing their tails to fit everything in the day ... what is the likelihood that many of them will actually come in to an SU office and kick up a fuss and demand action?!

So maybe anyone out there who gets a chance to raise some issues during this campaign could put a word in for the Unknown Students?

TJJP

Myth wrote:

Registration fee is set by the Government. It goes towards registration, examinations, and student services (plus anything else that the college sees relevant to be under these very general headings). If you're paying extra, chances are it's a levy for a sports hall, or student centre, USI membership, or something else.

Eh? See Universities Act, 1997.... Section 40 or IoT's 2006.

Fees are set by Higher Education institutions with agreement of GOV, so as to prevent rapid increase. Suggest you read the text of the letter you linked to again. In effect it approves the increases sought.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA24Y1997S40.html

The_Minister

randylonghorn wrote:

Folks, just a reminder that free fees only apply to full-time students.

I hate to burst your bubble, but at the last USI conference, Mary Coughlan announced that part-time students will be included in the "free fees" scheme.

thebman

brianthebard wrote:

Brim4brim, where you studying in Maynooth? As Infront says the fees paid at registration go straight to the college.

I was studying Computer Science & Software Engineering using computers that didn't meet the minimum requirements for the OS they were running. Lecturers had nice new Apple laptops though!

randylonghorn

The_Minister wrote:

I hate to burst your bubble, but at the last USI conference, Mary Coughlan announced that part-time students will be included in the "free fees" scheme.

And what "bubble" would that be, exactly?

I am delighted to hear that the Minister for Agriculture announced the extension of the free fees initiative to part-time students at the USI conference. Unfortunately, the Dept. of Education have not issued any such instructions to the third-level colleges as yet.

I expect to hear many more such announcements and promises over the next few weeks, on everything from education to health to transport to tiddly-winks.

Do you think that all of those will be implemented when election fever has died down, unless pressure is kept up on the winners to do so?

randylonghorn

Just following up on the above, AONTAS, the national association for adult education, has launched a campaign to seek various improvements in the area which they see as essential.

The changes they are seeking are here, and they include the abolition of fees for part-time third level students, to bring them in to parity with their full-time colleagues.

AONTAS are asking people to show their support by signing the online petition.

They do acknowledge here that one of the issues which they highlight (BTEI fees) has to a great extent been addressed recently, and that promises have been made of very limited improvements on the issue of part-time third level fees.

These latter promises, even if they were to be implemented, still fall far short of eliminating the present discrimination against part-time students at third level with regard to fees.

I could go on (at length, being me! :rolleyes: ) about the justice / equality issue, and the social reasons why this is important ... but let's just look at it from an economic point of view: adult education and training are hugely important issues for our economy, and if we are to continue to compete and prosper as a country, we must be prepared to support and to motivate our people to upskill and indeed to re-train. All parties seem to agree on this ... time for less talk, and more action, as far as I am concerned.

Agent J

The_Minister wrote:

I hate to burst your bubble, but at the last USI conference, Mary Coughlan announced that part-time students will be included in the "free fees" scheme.

This would be the same Free fees scheme that Coughlans predescessor in this current government tried to dismantle?

<edit>

I also remind you of the Massive increase that was put on the registration fee by this current government right after the last election.

If was still currently a student... i would be fearful they they will pull the exact same move they did last time they were elected.