Dancing on the Dart

Tom Dunne

I was on the Dart this morning between Blackrock and Pearse and something I haven't seen in a long time occurred. A group of three Romanians came from another carriage and started playing various musical instruments, followed by the obligatory begging for money. They identified themselves as Romanian before they started.

Is there a policy on begging on the Dart? Or causing a nuisance? I found this very annoying, some older people seemed very intimidated by it.

Is there any point in complaining?

Stark

I cried after watching Dancer on the Dart.

Would be worth putting in a complaint I reckon. I'm pretty sure it's not allowed.

Skyhater

You should try riding the New York Subway...... I'd say 50% of the journeys are interrupted by either Beggars, Buskers or Religious Freaks!!!

MarkoP11

Its in breech of the byelaws

Problem is if you tell the driver you are likely to be delayed particularly if they refuse to leave at which point policy is to wait as long as it takes for the gardai to arrive

This has become a serious problem in recent months, if there was a staff presence on board it wouldn't happen

Stark

Can the gardaí even do anything when they do come? I know in the case of street beggars, they can't prosecute, only ask them to move on. I think they can only prosecute if the beggars ignore the warning to move on.

europerson

It's like this on the Metro in Paris. They're not too intimidating there, but they are annoying.

MarkoP11

The byelaw allows an official to remove them and it is deemed a penal offence and so a fine can be issued. Train is not a public place.

The more on the ball IE official would cop a breach of the terms of travel as well since these musicians tend to get on and off and a break of journey is not allowed on a DART/Suburban ticket

Tom Dunne

MarkoP11 wrote:

The more on the ball IE official would cop a breach of the terms of travel as well since these musicians tend to get on and off and a break of journey is not allowed on a DART/Suburban ticket

That's exactly what they were doing.

TBH, I am all for the whole multi-cultural thing, but this is one facet of it we could do without.

europerson wrote:

It's like this on the Metro in Paris. They're not too intimidating there, but they are annoying.

I think the reason some of the older people found it intimidating is probably because they had never seen such a thing before, especially when the "entertainers" literally shove the cup in your face.

AlekSmart

There are several facets of this post deserving of consideration.

The issue of begging now being decriminalized has been well covered in the national media.
However,what has not been addressed is the manner in which the "News" has been disseminated rapidly throughout the greater begging community particularly the supposedly "Self Employed" members of the EU Accession States.

The reality of the Begging on such hi density operations as Metro,Tram or Bus is that the actual Musical performance is often a well rehearsed diversionary tactic which allows the "Operational" members of the begging team to operate unseen and unfelt throughout the vehicle.

Make no mistake but the appearance of this stuff will coincide with a steep increase in "Lost" Bags,Wallets,Mobile Phones etc most of which will not be discovered until the "Loser" has left the Carriage,Bus or Station.

It is also worth bearing in mind that the "Beggars" now popping up on Dublins streets and Public Transport have not just graduated with a Certificate of Mendicancy from their nearest Fàs Centre.
The majority of these,both native and "New" Irish are professionals at their chosen trade and often have business plans of far greater complexity and application than anything the CIE group can muster.

The issue of begging,hustling,panhandling or other unwanted interference with ones personal commuting space is inexorably intertwined with the greater issue of Customer Safety and if not addressed by CIE and the Gardai will rapidly lead to a situation whereby Public Transport and particular the more isolated DART stations becoming unviable after a certain time.

Unfortunately for the Public Transport user and indeed PT Staff our administrative and social mechanisms are skewed more towards denying the existance of the problem for as long as possible.
This period of denial then allows sufficient time for the "Beggars" to establish themselves on their "Turf" and to assume a form of dei-facto control over the situation.

Make no mistake,but that if unchecked,this "New" facet of DART travel will definitely ensure that any hopes of later running DART/Suburban Rail services will be fruitless as "Customer Demand" simply will not be evident,to use IE speak.

On a serious note I would recomment any Passengers who notice these "Teams" on a regular basis to be observant.

Make surreptitions use of your Mobile Phone/Camera if possible.
(Be aware that many of the "Accessionists" will react strongly to any attempt to photograph them).

Try and take note of what station they board and alight at and the timings of their "Performances".

If possible try to observe if they have any Cars,Vans or other transport from which they operate,parked close to the Stations.

If you are living in the vicinity of a Station,check the pavements and walls in the vicinity of your house or apartment for unusual paint markings/symbols.
The teams which operate on mass public transport are very efficient at noting the commuting patterns of targetted areas,such as Apartment Complexes and will leave markings appropriate to individual residences as soon as the commuting patterns of the occupiers are knows.
Once this is done its a shoo-in for their follow up team members to effect an entrance in comfort as you snooze on the clickety clack to Pearse.

There was an excellent web site which I`m attempting to locate that displayed many of the various symbols and markers used by these gangs in and around the Paris and Madrid Metro`s.

It really does come down to taking an interest in one`s own commute and in one`s own personal security.
Remember both IE and the Gardai will simply play this down for as long as possible as it does not sit easily with the "Nice" all-inclusive community service ethos which prevails in the Public Service these days.

Remember too that this is only the beginning...and unless we have a miracalous Pauline Conversion,the central responsible agencies will NOT take action,so prepare for more of the same.

Ask yourself why the Bill Brattons and John Timoneys were needed to get some security back into US mass transit systems.
Why do RATP Seuretè agents appear so Hi=Profile on the Paris Metro.
Why are the Metropolitan Police and TfL having to divert ever greater resources into Transport Policing in London......?

Why....?

Because in all cases the problem was allowed to develop from a small Acorn into a Great Oak Tree and then became a serious threat to EVERYBODY.

:cool:

Dub13

We had riding on the Dart last year and nothing much was done,so don't expect much.

Victor

Alek, some people would call you cynical.

MarkoP11

Victor wrote:

Alek, some people would call you cynical.

Others would say Alek knows the true reality of public transport in Dublin, the reality does not make for easy reading

Sarsfield

tom dunne wrote:

Is there any point in complaining?

Yes. Definitely lodge a complaint. In writing. Not phone or email.

Anti-social behaviour on public transport is something I'll be raising with anyone knocking on my door during the election campaign. It's intimidation and thuggery should be dealt with as such.

AlekSmart

Hmmmm....There is,of course,an alternative approach......

With the current Political and Social preference for regulatory bodies to ensure high standards and best practices are maintained across a wide range of areas the decriminalization of begging leaves the entire begging process now open to Regulation.

How about thinking out of the box on this one and looking at ways and means of regulating begging.
Appoint a Commissioner for Mendicants, with a support structure and staff to oversee the entire business.
If one were truly cynical,one could headquarter the operation in the Old "Sick and Indigent Roomkeepers Society" buildings along by Dame Lane.

The remit of this Commission would be,just as with Avation,Taxi`s,and Political Standards,to ensure the public were not subject to unfair or illegal methods of begging as well as to vet those who laid claim to be genuine beggars.

In this way some form of track could be kept on the genuine beggar and those weekenders or gratuitious amatures could be weeded out.
Begging stances could be allocated and regulated with the prime locations being offered on an open competitive basis using the proposed Dublin Airport Authority`s Bus Stop tender process as a model.

The print media is currently carrying the views of Sr Stanislaus Kennedy as she calls for a truly effective Commission and Minister for Immigrants.

The establishment of a begging commission could also be a way of allowing such a body to find its feet as it could ensure that "New" Irish or otherwise disadvantaged applicants did not simply fall into the endless downward spiral of a "Race to the Bottom" of the begging ladder.

One way or another the traditional Irish methodology of dealing with such situations just aint going to work here.
Just think.....What has become of the "Traditional" Irish beggar...The woman in the plaid shawl sitting forlornly on O Connell Bridge cradling a "Babby" in her arms as she sought alms and solace......
She has been upstaged by the Eastern European Accordionist,Oboeist,Violionist or Puppeteer who have brought their differing cultural interpretation of begging to our little City.
It cannot be long now before we see our first dancing bear or tethered chimpanzee in the competition for our ever decreasing disposable Euro.

Yes .....This is one area where Regulation and perhaps a dose of PPP might just bring Results and yet,oddly enough,it does not seem to merit a mention from the Progressive Democrats who are usually so Pro-Competition and Free Market in such matters....or am I being just a tad toooo cynical here..??

daymobrew

Sarsfield wrote:

Yes. Definitely lodge a complaint. In writing. Not phone or email.

Anti-social behaviour on public transport is something I'll be raising with anyone knocking on my door during the election campaign. It's intimidation and thuggery should be dealt with as such.

Don't forget the Irish Rail Security number: 1800-344-544. It is listed on the back of train tickets.

Enigma365

As long as they are being given money, they will have a financial incentive to continue doing what they are doing.

If you find it annoying or unplesant but yet still give them money out of feelings of guilt/intimidation, then you are basically saying "I find your act annoying, but I am going to pay you to keep doing it".

In fairness, msot people probably just give them money because they feel sorry for them. However I think people need to be less lazy and consider what might help these people more in the long term. Why not give the money instead to a worthwhile charity that might actually help give these people a proper life and future.

Giving them bits of loose change on a regular basis sustains them in an existance of begging that they likely don't enjoy, that we most certainly don't enjoy and that will unlikely help them break free.

The same principal applies to giving money to people begging on the streets, but that's for another forum.

lostexpectation

daymobrew wrote:

Don't forget the Irish Rail Security number: 1800-344-544. It is listed on the back of train tickets.

who it be good chance are romanian aswell, no joke

Tom Dunne

daymobrew wrote:

Don't forget the Irish Rail Security number: 1800-344-544. It is listed on the back of train tickets.

That's interesting, I didn't know that number existed. It's not on the back of my yearly ticket, though.

Enigma365 wrote:

If you find it annoying or unplesant but yet still give them money out of feelings of guilt/intimidation, then you are basically saying "I find your act annoying, but I am going to pay you to keep doing it".

I made a point of not giving them anything, as did most people on the train. Though I did notice those that looked the most intimidated seemed to give them money.

I would hate to think things are as AlekSmart says - the start of something more sinister.

Stark

They're a right bloody pain in the hole in some places abroad. Even if you don't voluntarily give them money, you have to be on the alert for pick pocketers.

corktina

its not begging..its busking.
The solution is to improve the quality of the perfomance so that it whiles away the journey for the passenger.
Maybe getting Bono and the Lads to perform might work but over-crowding would then be an issue....so, my suggestion is to replace the Rumanians with Irish stars such as Dana, Ronan Keating and Daniel O'Donnell...
That way at least the Deaf would get a seat and that would mean at least SOME of the the Dart passengers would be happy,which would be an Improvement
...also , as I never travel on the Dart, it would have the added bonus of keeping these great Stars out of earshot of me.

Stark

corktina wrote:

its not begging..its busking.

Buskers stand at the side of the street or at the side of a corridor in a train station and leave a hat or something on the ground so that people can choose whether to stop and listen and maybe throw in a few coins if they feel so inclined, or can just walk on and go about their business. Buskers don't "beg" for your money. Cornering someone in a confined space like the DART is just intimidation and thuggery as Sarsfield rightly put it.

talkingclock

Same story in Berlin's underground. Almost 75% of the trains have the beggars: ex drug junkies on their recovering trip, poor mothers with childs, romanians just plain begging, russians making music, homeless people selling homeless-people-magazines...

corktina

Stark wrote:

Buskers stand at the side of the street or at the side of a corridor in a train station and leave a hat or something on the ground so that people can choose whether to stop and listen and maybe throw in a few coins if they feel so inclined, or can just walk on and go about their business. Buskers don't "beg" for your money. Cornering someone in a confined space like the DART is just intimidation and thuggery as Sarsfield rightly put it.

sorry.........:o :rolleyes:

HelterSkelter

Sarsfield wrote:

Anti-social behaviour on public transport is something I'll be raising with anyone knocking on my door during the election campaign. It's intimidation and thuggery should be dealt with as such.

Thuggery, ha ha, get a grip will ya.