poker strategy discussion... AK

Macspower

I want to try and get some poker strategy discussion going here as there is so much talent on here it's amazing..... I thought what better place to start than with one of the old favourites... the AK, the Anna Kournakova, the start of most bad beat stories (well i had AK in the BB and....). A few questions to get us started. I'll add my own opinions later.

I'm sure someone could do a better job on the Q's than me but here is a typical situation to start with...

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1) Cash game 1/2 6 max (because it's what i'm currently playing ) effective stacks 100bb. villan ( the BB) is a loose bad player. I have a reasonably tight image .I raise to 10 after 1 limper. BB calls limper calls.....

a) flops comes QJ7 rainbow.... checked around to you.....
whats your move....?

lets assume you C-bet to 20.. 1 caller. turn 5. checked to you.... whats your move? how do you plan to continue with the hand?

b) flop comes AK 7..checked to you... whats your move?

c) flop comes A 7 2 checked to you...you bet 25. 1 caller... turn 5 checked to you.... bet or check?

assume you bet 60... he calls.... river J he leads for the pot? your move?


just something to get us started........... opinions? is there room for such discussion here?? well lets see?

Mac

ianmc38

Most of the answers to these questions are too opponent and game specific to eb able to provide a deifnitive answer.

Macspower

suggestions on improvement ian? gimmie a bit of help... i'm more interested in peoples lines and thinking here than specific answers..... perhaps i'm going about it in the wrong way.....

Mr.Plough

fold pf

phantom_lord

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=4109341


you need to be more specific in your questions, what type of villain he is, how you've been playing etc etc. and stack sizes for the last hand.

Gholimoli

I don’t think you will learn much asking question in this way.
For example my answer to your first question would be it depends.
Infact my answer to most of them would be it depends as it really depends on factors that you have not described here.
Its actually the concept and theory behind those factors that you should be looking to learn and understand.
When you get the underlying concepts behind a particular poker move then you can make dynamic and conscious adjustments to them to fit the particular situation you are in. adjustments that would fully benefit from that and only that particular situation and will maximize your EV given the situation in hand.
When people post hand histories what is of benefit and value is actually those theory discussions that comes out of it IMO.if you only learn off how to play a hand only in a particular situation with out fully understanding what is happening you can easily be doing the wrong thing later when the situation changes slightly.
This is why I think “the Theory of Poker” is the best ever book that ive read on poker as it tries to teach you the real underlying concepts that you should know.
For example why raise, why call, why play loose in a tight game and play tight in a loose game etc.

Macspower

pl? can we rob something to get us started? or can you make up something or PM me with suggestions and I'll edit...

i agree with you Gholi...... it was very much a quick thought...... really trying to get the discussion started..... should i edit and start in a different way? agree on the TOP being the best I've ever read aslo...

bops

Macs - put up one at a time with details of your image and the villians tendencies etc for better responses

Macspower

*edited* see below

ollyk1

.

Macspower

bops wrote:

Macs - put up one at a time with details of your image and the villians tendencies etc for better responses

edited to start with one hand and some different type of flops.

perhaps some of you could post some of your most interesting/difficult AK hand in recent times?

Mac

ianmc38

1) Cash game 1/2 6 max (because it's what i'm currently playing ) effective stacks 100bb. villan ( the BB) is a loose bad player. I have a reasonably tight image .I raise to 10 after 1 limper. BB calls limper calls.....

a) flops comes QJ7 rainbow.... checked around to you.....
whats your move....?

lets assume you C-bet to 20.. 1 caller. turn 5. checked to you.... whats your move? how do you plan to continue with the hand?

If the loose bad player calls your bet you should generally give up. The old adage of dont bluff the calling station comes to mind.

b) flop comes AK 7..checked to you... whats your move?

Usually bet

c) flop comes A 7 2 checked to you...you bet 25. 1 caller... turn 5 checked to you.... bet or check?

assume you bet 60... he calls.... river J he leads for the pot? your move?

This hand is way too opponenet specific to answer correctly. In general if someone calls 2 streets and leads the river I'd fold TPTK as their line is really strong and should be able to easily beat AK

Macspower

thanks olly... i've decided to drop the tourney one for now but perhaps you could describe a typical tourney situation that you've been in lately with AK? I don't play all that much of them anymore....

pok3rplaya

ok discussion discussion...

a) I usually check the flop when I raise and get 2 callers. I just find that it's pretty likely that one or the other of them will call if I c-bet. I'm more likely to c-bet in this instance because of our gutshot also. Basically it comes down to what I think of the two callers, the more passive and likely to fold they are (ie 30/7/0.9 stats) the more likely I will cbet, the more loose and Calling stationy they are (stats can vary) the more likely I am to check. My HUD displays a "folds to c-bet" stat too which helps.

I pretty much always check the turn. I think it's a pair more often then a draw.

b) Bet for value though recently I have been pondering the merits of checking in spots like this where we have a reletivly strong hand and a probable WA/WB situation. If someone could put together an argument for checking I'd be interested.

c) whether or not the board is rainbow is super important in this hand.

pok3rplaya

ok discussion discussion...

a) I usually check the flop when I raise and get 2 callers. I just find that it's pretty likely that one or the other of them will call if I c-bet. I'm more likely to c-bet in this instance because of our gutshot also. Basically it comes down to what I think of the two callers, the more passive and likely to fold they are (ie 30/7/0.9 stats) the more likely I will cbet, the more loose and Calling stationy they are (stats can vary) the more likely I am to check. My HUD displays a "folds to c-bet" stat too which helps.

I pretty much always check the turn. I think it's a pair more often then a draw.

b) Bet for value though recently I have been pondering the merits of checking in spots like this where we have a reletivly strong hand and a probable WA/WB situation. If someone could put together an argument for checking I'd be interested.

c) whether or not the board is rainbow is super important in this hand.

ollyk1

Macspower wrote:

thanks olly... i've decided to drop the tourney one for now but perhaps you could describe a typical tourney situation that you've been in lately with AK? I don't play all that much of them anymore....

No bother Paul AK in a tournie is generally very simple imho. Its in a cash game is where it gets a little difficult. I've personally been playing it too weakly in cash games tbh but I think its a function of my BR for cash games not being sufficient and my tight ass nut peddling style!!

Ian's response to your cash game question would be my default too.

I personally think how you play AK has a lot to do with how you play big pairs. I think you need to keep your play consistent if you think oponents are monitoring your play, if they aren't then wait till you hit and then start betting.

Macspower

Macspower wrote:

1) Cash game 1/2 6 max (because it's what i'm currently playing ) effective stacks 100bb. villan ( the BB) is a loose bad player. I have a reasonably tight image .I raise to 10 after 1 limper. BB calls limper calls.....

a) flops comes QJ7 rainbow.... checked around to you.....
whats your move....?

Mac

1) a) generally speaking I nearly asways check here against a loose player as he will call your c bet with any part of the flop

Mac[/QUOTE] lets assume you C-bet to 20.. 1 caller. turn 5. checked to you.... whats your move? how do you plan to continue with the hand? [/QUOTE]

If I decided to C-bet here and got called unless I improve I'm not continuing with the hand..

[/quote] flop comes AK 7..checked to you... whats your move? [/quote]

90% of the time I'll bet here. and continue with another bet on the turn and river if he calls me down... if I get called on the flop sometimes I bet a little weaker on the turn to try to induce him pay back at me.... I rarely check the turn as it means i have to get him to call a bigger bet on the river to get the same value...

[/quote] c) flop comes A 7 2 checked to you...you bet 25. 1 caller... turn 5 checked to you.... bet or check?

assume you bet 60... he calls.... river J he leads for the pot? your move? [/quote]

generally here I will check the turn and call his river bet but if I decided to bet the turn I'd probably fold in the above situation.

Mac

phantom_lord

the thing about ak is that's what everyone likes to put someone on when they raise. If you get any real action with that hand you're almost always beat.

Macspower

edited...double post

Macspower

Doyle Brunson writes in SS1 and SS2 that he prefers AK to AA or KK..... his reasoning is that he wins more money with AK if he makes a hand and if he doesn't he looses less money with it..... anyone agree?

phantom_lord

nope. i certainly don't anyway. aa+kk are always gonna be more profitable.

Gholimoli

Yeah there was a fallow here that that posted in flipper’s “folding AA pre-flop” that AK is more valuable than AA .
Im sure he will agree with that.

pok3rplaya

Macspower wrote:

Doyle Brunson writes in SS1 and SS2 that he prefers AK to AA or KK..... his reasoning is that he wins more money with AK if he makes a hand and if he doesn't he looses less money with it..... anyone agree?

All due respect to Doyle, there's a lot of stuff in those books that is bollox.

Macspower

pok3rplaya wrote:

All due respect to Doyle, there's a lot of stuff in those books that is bollox.

you sound like roy keane here. but I have to agree with some of this... his SS certainly wouldn't work in a dublin card room.....

AmarilloFats

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phantom_lord wrote:

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valor

Doyle brunson is an old *******

Macspower

I found that both SS1and2 have some very good points in them but you do need pick through the info... can't argue with a lifetime of success but just cant see it working in Dublin. A lot of DB's success is based on people folding....he'd get some fright in the SE :eek:

Flushdraw

AmarilloFats wrote:

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