Urgent help/advice required!

Steffano2002

Hello everybody,

This is by far the most important post/request I've made on boards.ie and I really hope you can help!

I am posting this message because I want to help my mother who is currently having some problems with her employer. She works in a dentist in Dublin. She is a dental nurse. I shall say no more...

Basically she started working there a few years ago and she is irreproachable (never late, always does her job perfectly, never sick, etc). She chose to work for this particular dentist because in the interview she was told that she would finish on time (or, and I quote, "5 minutes late at the most") and because she could finish at 4PM on Fridays. Indeed, another part-time nurse would replace her after 4PM on Fridays...

However, this part-time nurse is now leaving in June and the dentist told (not "asked") my mother to work after 4PM on Fridays to replace her. She told him she could not work after 4PM on Fridays to which he replied "Well, you'll have to now".

My mother told me this last week so I asked her what her contract stipulated. She told me she didn't have a contract!!! :eek:
Indeed her employer never provided her with a written contract after employing her!

Thanks to a sticky on this forum, I found the "TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT (INFORMATION) ACT, 1994" online which states the following:

3.—(1) An employer shall, not later than 2 months after the commencement of an employee's employment with the employer, give or cause to be given to the employee a statement in writing containing the following particulars of the terms of the employee's employment, that is to say—

( a ) the full names of the employer and the employee,

( b ) the address of the employer in the State or, where appropriate, the address of the principal place of the relevant business of the employer in the State or the registered office (within the meaning of the Companies Act, 1963) etc etc

Thus, her employer is in breach of the law. Is this correct?

Also, my mother works from 8AM to 6PM (except Fridays as stated above) but she only gets one single 1 hour lunch break a day. Is this legal?

Furthermore, she never gets her full 1 hour lunch. It is supposed to start at 1PM and finish at 2PM but today for example (typical day), she only went on lunch at 1:20PM and she has to be back at 1:50PM to be ready for the first "afternoon customer" at 2PM. This is really frustrating for her. She is not allowed any other breaks during the day (no quick 10/15 minute breaks given) and she would really like to be able to enjoy a proper 1 hour lunch break!

Now, the reason why I am posting this is because her employer wants to "have a 5 minute chat" with my mother on Thursday evening and she (just like myself) does not really know where she stands (we do not know/understand the law properly).

Could you please advise what you would do if you were faced with this situation? What if her employer "forces" her to work after 4PM on Fridays? My mother has no written contract to prove it was (verbally) agreed that she would finish at 4PM on Fridays!

Your help/advice will be greatly appreciated! This situation is really upsetting my mother and myself I would like to know what we have to/can do next!

Kind regards,

Steffano2002

dixiefly

I am sorry that I cannot assist you on the specifics. It sounds to me as if the dentist is out of line.

If it was me I would be supplementing my request for information on this site with a trip to a solicitor. After that i would rehearse what can and should be said during the meeting.

Steffano2002

dixiefly wrote:

I am sorry that I cannot assist you on the specifics. It sounds to me as if the dentist is out of line.

If it was me I would be supplementing my request for information on this site with a trip to a solicitor. After that i would rehearse what can and should be said during the meeting.

Thank you for your reply dixiefly. This thought had indeed crossed my mind as I do sincerely believe my mother's employer is really out of line. Mmy mum told me loads of other horror stories which I did not want to detail here as I do not want this thread to focus on how "bad" the employer is but instead on what my mother needs to do to get things right.

Thanks again for your reply dixiefly.

nesf

Sorry for locking your other thread but cross-posting is bad ok and really AH is not the place to look for serious advice about situations like this.



Your mother should have a contract stating the hours of work etc. She shouldn't have been "told" that she's now doing extra hours, that's unreasonable although I'm unsure of someone's actual rights when they don't have a contract. Joining a union is (imho) unnecessary if she is the only employee. She needs only to represent herself and be reasonable about doing it.


Tomorrow morning when the usual suspects log in you should get plenty of good and useful replies to this thread.

jhegarty

Have a good read here :

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work

Steffano2002

nesf wrote:

Sorry for locking your other thread but cross-posting is bad ok and really AH is not the place to look for serious advice about situations like this.

No problem nesf. It's just that my mother is having her meeting Thursday evening and I didn't know if I was going to get many replies on this forum so I thought I'd double post to get more exposure.

nesf wrote:

Your mother should have a contract stating the hours of work etc. She shouldn't have been "told" that she's now doing extra hours, that's unreasonable although I'm unsure of someone's actual rights when they don't have a contract. Joining a union is (imho) unnecessary if she is the only employee. She needs only to represent herself and be reasonable about doing it.

I also think joining a Union (by yourself) when you start having problems is useless...

nesf wrote:

Tomorrow morning when the usual suspects log in you should get plenty of good and useful replies to this thread.

I'll be checking on this thread very early in the morning then!

Thanks again for everything nesf.

Steffano2002

jhegarty wrote:

Have a good read here :

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work

Thanks jhegarty. This does indeed shed some light on the situation surrounding breaks.

nesf

Steffano2002 wrote:

Thanks jhegarty. This does indeed shed some light on the situation surrounding breaks.

Oh yeah, she has legal entitlements to breaks, that's very important. You cannot be asked to work during them (there are exceptions but I don't believe that dental nurses are one).

Steffano2002

nesf wrote:

Oh yeah, she has legal entitlements to breaks, that's very important. You cannot be asked to work during them (there are exceptions but I don't believe that dental nurses are one).

Thanks nesf! I'll tell her! I'm actually making a file with all these pieces of information and we will discuss them tomorrow evening together so keep'em coming!

Pongo

First, with regard to the contract, she doesn't need one. Her working terms and conditions for the last few years ARE her contract. If she's finished at 4pm every Friday for the last few years, then 4pm is her contracted finish time. Once the two month period within which an employer should give a contract has lapsed, the terms and conditions of employment that apply then are taken to be the cotracted terms of employment. Her employer cannot force her to change her working hours.

Now, that's all well and good, but considering she's a dental nurse, and the only employee, and presumably works closely with said dentist, she's going to have to think about how best to handle it. I wouldn't fancy going to work as a dental nurse everyday if I wasn't getting on with the dentist.
She's perfectly within her rights refusing to work after 4pm, but I wouldn't advise mentioning solicitors or being in any way confrontational just yet. Wait and see waht the 'chat' is about, agree to absolutely NOTHING, give no assurances, other than that she will 'consider' any demands, requests, or suggestions. She could ask for a written contract before then, or during the 'chat', but again make sure she doesn't sign anything until she gets further advise.
She doesn't need a contract to prove a verbal agreement of a 4pm finish time, once she can prove that it has been a 4pm finish time all along, any verbal agreement is pretty much irrelevant.

Most important tell her not to panic, not to agree to any changes, and not to be confrontational. Calmly explain the reason she took the job was a 4pm finish, you never know, it might just call her employer's bluff.

Have a look here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/contracts-of-employment/contract_of_employment

and here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/contracts-of-employment/change_job_contract

Best of luck...

nesf

Pongo wrote:

She's perfectly within her rights refusing to work after 4pm, but I wouldn't advise mentioning solicitors or being in any way confrontational just yet. Wait and see waht the 'chat' is about, agree to absolutely NOTHING, give no assurances, other than that she will 'consider' any demands, requests, or suggestions. She could ask for a written contract before then, or during the 'chat', but again make sure she doesn't sign anything until she gets further advise.

I've bolded the most important piece of advice here. Being confrontational is simply a bad idea. Some people might recommend it as advice but really it should be avoided if at all possible. This kind of thing is why I locked the AH thread, people might mean well advising you to bring a solicitor into it early but really it's better for everyone concerned if escalation can be avoided.

Nody

Steffano2002 wrote:

Also, my mother works from 8AM to 6PM (except Fridays as stated above) but she only gets one single 1 hour lunch break a day. Is this legal?

She has the right to two unpaid 15 min breaks, there is no mandatory lunch break.

Furthermore, she never gets her full 1 hour lunch. It is supposed to start at 1PM and finish at 2PM but today for example (typical day), she only went on lunch at 1:20PM and she has to be back at 1:50PM to be ready for the first "afternoon customer" at 2PM. This is really frustrating for her. She is not allowed any other breaks during the day (no quick 10/15 minute breaks given) and she would really like to be able to enjoy a proper 1 hour lunch break!

Overtime and/or reduced over all working hours.

Now if we're using the hours you've supplied she's working 9h Monday to Thursday(1h Lunch break hence 18:00 - 08:00 = 10h minus 1h lunch) and then 08:00 to 16:00 (minus 1h lunch) on Friday which would add up to 9h*4+7h = 43h week, is this correct as it seems high.

Could you please advise what you would do if you were faced with this situation? What if her employer "forces" her to work after 4PM on Fridays? My mother has no written contract to prove it was (verbally) agreed that she would finish at 4PM on Fridays!

Labour court if required but the simple mentioning of no contract etc. in there would make him a moron to go there in the first place (example would be case Goode Concrete Ltd vs. Dermot Munro, Determination nr DWT051 from 2005, in short he'll have to prove she had said breaks and they can't be taken back to back) as there are so many cases backing up what is said above (have some fun reading on here.).

Steffano2002

Good morning all,

Before I start, I would like to thank Pongo, nesf and Nody for your posts. Thank you!

I read all your posts then rang the "Citizens Information Phone Service". The person I spoke to was very helpful and pretty much agreed with what you guys had to say:

- keep calm
- agree to nothing
- sign nothing
- don't mention solicitors or Unions or the Rights Commissioner (just yet)

As a result, this is definitely the way we will be going.

The Citizens Information person also told me that a verbal contract (in this particular case, the contract in place for well over a year now) is like a written contract and that it could not be changed by the employer when he/she wishes to do so.
Indeed, the employer needs to negociate with the employee who does not "have to accept" these changes.

We also discussed the lunch break situation and the gentleman confirmed that my mother is entitled to the full hour. Again, it does not need to be written in a contract if it was verbally agreed at the start of employment or at the interview process.

Finally, the Citizens Information person told me to contact the Rights Commissioner if things cannot be resolved amicably. I think that's the way we are heading...

Steffano2002

Nody wrote:

Overtime and/or reduced over all working hours.

I agree. However I don't think the employer will...

Nody wrote:

Now if we're using the hours you've supplied she's working 9h Monday to Thursday(1h Lunch break hence 18:00 - 08:00 = 10h minus 1h lunch) and then 08:00 to 16:00 (minus 1h lunch) on Friday which would add up to 9h*4+7h = 43h week, is this correct as it seems high.

I am 99% sure this is correct. Will speak to my mum on her lunch break to confirm this.

Nody wrote:

Labour court if required but the simple mentioning of no contract etc. in there would make him a moron to go there in the first place (example would be case Goode Concrete Ltd vs. Dermot Munro, Determination nr DWT051 from 2005, in short he'll have to prove she had said breaks and they can't be taken back to back) as there are so many cases backing up what is said above (have some fun reading on here.).

The "Goode Concrete Ltd vs. Dermot Munro" case is indeed very interesting! It's nice to see employers don't always get away with such things (and thank God most employers aren't like that)!

Steffano2002

Pongo wrote:

First, with regard to the contract, she doesn't need one. Her working terms and conditions for the last few years ARE her contract. If she's finished at 4pm every Friday for the last few years, then 4pm is her contracted finish time. Once the two month period within which an employer should give a contract has lapsed, the terms and conditions of employment that apply then are taken to be the cotracted terms of employment. Her employer cannot force her to change her working hours.

WOW! I'm just after re-reading this and it's nearly word for word what the person on the phone said to me! Do you work for the Citizens Information Phone Service Pongo?

Pongo wrote:

Now, that's all well and good, but considering she's a dental nurse, and the only employee, and presumably works closely with said dentist, she's going to have to think about how best to handle it. I wouldn't fancy going to work as a dental nurse everyday if I wasn't getting on with the dentist.

Too late I'm afraid... From what I understood that's pretty much the way it is now I believe...

Pongo wrote:

She's perfectly within her rights refusing to work after 4pm, but I wouldn't advise mentioning solicitors or being in any way confrontational just yet. Wait and see waht the 'chat' is about, agree to absolutely NOTHING, give no assurances, other than that she will 'consider' any demands, requests, or suggestions. She could ask for a written contract before then, or during the 'chat', but again make sure she doesn't sign anything until she gets further advise.
She doesn't need a contract to prove a verbal agreement of a 4pm finish time, once she can prove that it has been a 4pm finish time all along, any verbal agreement is pretty much irrelevant.
That's great advice and I'll make sure my mother follows it.

Most important tell her not to panic, not to agree to any changes, and not to be confrontational. Calmly explain the reason she took the job was a 4pm finish, you never know, it might just call her employer's bluff.

That's great advice and I'll make sure my mother follows it! I hope it goes well tomorrow in that "quick 5 minute chat"

daveg

My sympathies Steffano. I too posted sometime ago here about a work situation issue which my mum went through. Her employers treated her like crap when she was attacked in work. I would advise you also talk to a solicitor, even just so you know where you stand. Thinking back it was great comfort to my mum to know that what they did to her, at that time, was illegal. It may reduce your mum's stress level's to know where she stands. Good luck!!

Pongo

Steffano2002 wrote:

Do you work for the Citizens Information Phone Service Pongo?

Nah not me! I just need to keep up to date on this sort of stuff in work... Hope it goes well for your Mother, it should if she takes on board all the above... Let us know what happens...

Steffano2002

Hi there,

I spoke to my mum on her lunch break and she confirmed that she works Monday to Thursday from 8AM to 6PM and Friday from 8AM to 4PM. She also confirmed that she started working there in July 2005 (nearly 2 years).

My mother is sure that she will be fired tomorrow evening during this "5 minute chat"... I keep telling her this will not happen but I'm not really sure to be honest ...

Steffano2002

daveg wrote:

My sympathies Steffano. I too posted sometime ago here about a work situation issue which my mum went through. Her employers treated her like crap when she was attacked in work. I would advise you also talk to a solicitor, even just so you know where you stand. Thinking back it was great comfort to my mum to know that what they did to her, at that time, was illegal. It may reduce your mum's stress level's to know where she stands. Good luck!!

Jesus, sorry to hear about your mother. I hope she is ok now!

These situations are terrible... I wouldn't mind if this was happening to me but when it happens to another member of the family it's much harder as you feel so powerless...

I think I'll get her to contact a solicitor soon. Perhaps after tomorrow's little meeting. This dentist is really treating her like crap at the moment and I'm hating this situation! :mad:

Thanks for your advice daveg.

Steffano2002

Pongo wrote:

Nah not me! I just need to keep up to date on this sort of stuff in work... Hope it goes well for your Mother, it should if she takes on board all the above... Let us know what happens...

I also hope it all goes well but I'm not optimistic to be quite honest...

Of course, I will let you know what happened in this meeting tomorrow night after I've spoken to my mum.

Thanks again for your support guys! I really appreciate it!

kmick

Is she in a position to change jobs? If she got another job it would give her a much stronger bargaining hand. She should defo look around. Getting let go tomorrow might be the best thing that ever happened to her. I doubt that 5 minute chat will result in that though. Its more likely he/she just want to confirm /pressure your mother to work the extra hours,

Steffano2002

kmick wrote:

Is she in a position to change jobs? If she got another job it would give her a much stronger bargaining hand. She should defo look around.

I haven't yet discussed this with her. But it might be something to consider indeed...

kmick wrote:

Getting let go tomorrow might be the best thing that ever happened to her. I doubt that 5 minute chat will result in that though. Its more likely he/she just want to confirm /pressure your mother to work the extra hours,

We'll soon find out! I would also be hugely surprised if she was dismissed tomorrow. As I said, she is irreproachable when it comes to her work! I think it would be suicide for the employer to fire her for no good reason!

Pongo

Sorry, I should have mentioned in my previous post, one of the single most important things she needs to do, especially if she's being treated like crap, is to keep a full and detailed record of what is happening. Times, dates, exactly what was said, or what action was taken. This will all be absolutely invaluable in a worst case scenario. If she is fired tomorrow for refusing to work after 4pm on Fridays, then she's got a clear cut case of unfair dismissal. I can't believe an employer would be stupid enough to do that, but there's a lot of idiots out there. Just tell her to remember not to agree to anything, and not under any circumstances to quit or resign or hand in her notice if she feels under pressure to do so (although even if she did it would be unfair dismissal).

If she has been mistreated for some time, it would be good if the record went back to when it started.. Remember that bullying in the workplace is a big no-no these days, if she's being made to feel uncomfortable in any way then that's effectively bullying. Of course I would never suggest that she back date records, that wouldn't be right or proper at all....

Bottom line, if her employer is an arsehole, she's better off getting out. But it should be her choice to leave. If she gets fired, for refusing to change her contracted hours, at short notice, and is being mistreated at work, then it's time to lawyer up and go legal.

Unfortunately, and this is always something to bear in mind before taking an ex employer to court, she does have to consider the problem of references and getting another job, possibly with someone who knows her current employer, but that's a whole other thread to be honest...

ps... If she is pressurised to change her hours or conditions of employment, she should politely and calmly ask for any suggested change to be put in writing. You'd be amazed how the penny can suddenly drop when someone's asked to put something in writing.

Steffano2002

Thanks again Pongo! I have given my mother all this advice I accumulated here so she knows exactly what to do tomorrow in that meeting. Getting the employer to put it in writing is absolute genius! I told her to do this if he tells my mother to change her working hours and worse, if he tells her she will be dismissed if she does not agree to the new working hours.

As for the bullying (I think at this stage we can call it that), she will start recording everything from tomorrow.
She told me lots of different stories that proves she is being bullied however she could not say when exactly they occurred unfortunately... This will all change come tomorrow though!

Thanks again for your help! My mother feels much more prepared for tomorrow now! You guys are great!

Steffano2002

Oh my God, you may not believe it but this is what actually happened in the "meeting":

People present: my mother, the dentist and the dentist's wife.

The dentist sat my mother down and told her:

"I'm paying you until the 8th of June, leave the keys down and get out of my practice"

She was fired! :eek:

I cannot believe this! I haven't actually spoken to my mother yet but she has been talking to my sister on the phone who in turn told me. I'm absolutely appalled and baffled by this!

More information will be given when I've spoken to my mother myself.

chump

Steffano2002 wrote:

Oh my God, you may not believe it but this is what actually happened in the "meeting":

People present: my mother, the dentist and the dentist's wife.

The dentist sat my mother down and told her:

"I'm paying you until the 8th of June, leave the keys down and get out of my practice"

She was fired! :eek:

I cannot believe this! I haven't actually spoken to my mother yet but she has been talking to my sister on the phone who in turn told me. I'm absolutely appalled and baffled by this!

More information will be given when I've spoken to my mother myself.

Irish statute book

4.—(1) An employer shall, in order to terminate the contract of employment of an employee who has been in his continuous service for a period of thirteen weeks or more, give to that employee a minimum period of notice calculated in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section.

(2) The minimum notice to be given by an employer to terminate the contract of employment of his employee shall be—

( a ) if the employee has been in the continuous service of his employer for less than two years, one week,

( b ) if the employee has been in the continuous service of his employer for two years or more, but less than five years, two weeks,

So she is entitled to be paid another weeks wages.

Sounds harsh on your mother - and sounds like a pissy dentist

Blinder

chump wrote:

Irish statute book



So she is entitled to be paid another weeks wages.

"I'm paying you until the 8th of June, leave the keys down and get out of my practice"

chump, she's being paid around 6 weeks wages so that doesn't apply.

But, she can't just be fired like that. Even if a contract isn't in place, the employer has to give a written warning before hand.

OP, get back onto the citizen advice bureau. This is definitely not on, and even though I'm sure that she doesn't want to work there any more after being treated like that., this densist can't get away with this behaviour!.

Steffano2002

Blinder wrote:

But, she can't just be fired like that. Even if a contract isn't in place, the employer has to give a written warning before hand.

I fully agree! She was given no written warning. And anyway, a written warning would never have been possible because my mother was ALWAYS in early, she was NEVER sick (except once she was not feeling well all day and the dentist himself asked her to go home!), she ALWAYS did what she was asked to do and she did properly!

Blinder wrote:

OP, get back onto the citizen advice bureau. This is definitely not on, and even though I'm sure that she doesn't want to work there any more after being treated like that., this densist can't get away with this behaviour!.

I will be ringing them first thing in the morning! This is so unfair! My mother is really upset! She worked hard all he life for many different employers and never had any problems with any of them. She is hard working and very professional! And now she has this "black mark" on her record and there is nothing she can do about it! I still can't believe it... :mad:

Steffano2002

chump wrote:

Irish statute book

4.—(1) An employer shall, in order to terminate the contract of employment of an employee [...]

But her contract wasn't really "terminated". She got "fired"! Am I right?

And this dentist will probably never give her a reference now!

Nody

Steffano2002 wrote:

But her contract wasn't really "terminated". She got "fired"! Am I right?

And this dentist will probably never give her a reference now!

Terminating a contract is firing someone but you can only do it on probation (fail probation for what ever reason you need), gross misconduct or no more work available if you want to do it out of the blue (and on the last you can't take in someone else to do a similar position for 6 months without offering said person the job again iirc). Anything else would require multiple warnings (the term is "what would be reasonable expected" and that reads along the lines of 3+ warnings in writing).

Second of all she should sit down and write down all the things going wrong, she got such a fun labour case here I'd laugh all the way to bank if I was her. Talk to a solicitor and make sure he takes it on at fixed fee preferably (he'll be laughing when he hears her story, seriously).

Third she can by law get a written confirmation of work from him saying her position, start date and end date which is standard in most bigger companies anyway.

Fourth tell your mother to be happy to be ride of the a-hole and advice her to look forward to a better employer and don't worry about it. She'll be upset and stressed most likely so calm her down, let her talk it out of her, she'll need that and that is the part you and the family can be of greatest use, be her vent to get it out.

chump

Blinder wrote:

chump, she's being paid around 6 weeks wages so that doesn't apply.

But, she can't just be fired like that. Even if a contract isn't in place, the employer has to give a written warning before hand.

OP, get back onto the citizen advice bureau. This is definitely not on, and even though I'm sure that she doesn't want to work there any more after being treated like that., this densist can't get away with this behaviour!.

sorry! thought it was May! my mistake... that's not a bad bit of cash to be given - of course she could still pursue it. Does anyone know what she could be looking at?

Steffano2002

Nody wrote:

Terminating a contract is firing someone but you can only do it on probation (fail probation for what ever reason you need), gross misconduct or no more work available if you want to do it out of the blue (and on the last you can't take in someone else to do a similar position for 6 months without offering said person the job again iirc). Anything else would require multiple warnings (the term is "what would be reasonable expected" and that reads along the lines of 3+ warnings in writing).

Second of all she should sit down and write down all the things going wrong, she got such a fun labour case here I'd laugh all the way to bank if I was her. Talk to a solicitor and make sure he takes it on at fixed fee preferably (he'll be laughing when he hears her story, seriously).

Third she can by law get a written confirmation of work from him saying her position, start date and end date which is standard in most bigger companies anyway.

Fourth tell your mother to be happy to be ride of the a-hole and advice her to look forward to a better employer and don't worry about it. She'll be upset and stressed most likely so calm her down, let her talk it out of her, she'll need that and that is the part you and the family can be of greatest use, be her vent to get it out.

My mother is stressed out about taking him to court (she wants to live a quiet life and hate this kind of trouble) but I told her it had to be done. I don't care about how much money she will get (just as long as it covers the solicitor/court charges). What I want is for this individual to stop thinking he is a dictator and that he can do whatever he wants! :mad:

I will not let him get away with what he did to my mum! And that's final!

Now, how do I go about finding a solicitor who would be able to help us? None of us have solicitors as we never find ourselves in this kind of situation.

Do I need a special solicitor for this kind of case?

Thanks again for all your help guys! You are wonderful and I'm glad I posted here for advice!

Pongo

Ok, first of all the guy is obviously an arsehole, and at the end of the day she's better off not working for an arsehole. Now, that's sweet F.A. use to her now obviously, but there's always a silver lining to these situations.

Anyway, moving swiftly on, as others have pointed out she's got a clear cut case against him for unfair dismissal, bullying, harrassment, a half decent solicitor will break their balls laughing when they hear how exposed he's left himself. Remember I said it would not be right to back date any records of her being mis treated in anyway, well that would still not be right or proper... It would, however be useful at this stage if she had done it.
(eh, hint... hint hint...)

Get back onto Citizen's Advice. They'll guide you through the next steps and tell you exactly what laws he's left himself exposed to. At the end of the day we're all just armchair critics here, Citizen's advice, as you've found out, know their stuff. Obviously everyone here will be screaming at you to Lawyer up, but at the end of the day it's your Mother's choice, and you have to respect her wishes. If you've never been in court before it can be a daunting prospect, and it takes time. I perfectly understand your wanting to drag him through the courts, but a lot of people just choose to walk away from situations like this and chalk it down to experience.

I don't advise your Mother does that though, I advise she goes for the jugular. She could be very stressed out by what happened. This may affect her for a long time, loss of confidence, stress, etc etc... (again, hint... hint hint...) Under 'S' in the Golden Pages you'll find solicitors. You want someone that specialises in employment or labour law, you'll find plenty. Most (if not all) will offer a free consultation. You can always go along, and see what you think, and what vibe they give. If you don't like them or they don't exactly make you feel like they're not overly interested, go elsewhere. But first get onto Citizen's advise, and remember that the course of action is ultimately your Mother's decision.

Best of luck to her, I seriously have no doubt that she will one day be thankful she got away from a job like that. Working for someone who doesn't appreciate you just isn't worth it at the end of the day...

Edit: A solicitor will advise you what your Mother could be looking at from a settlement point of view, she may not be interested in puruing a financial settlement thorugh the courts, but put it to her that it's not always about the money. Being told in a court or employment tribunal that yes, your boss screwed up badly, that's he's wrong, and you're right and that he should never have treated you the way he did.... THAT may well catch her interest...And what the hell, if it costs him a few quid in a settlement then all the better.
Sly move bringing the wife in by the way, and totally off side, he should have offered your Mother the chance to attend the meeting accompanied by an advisor, but anyway... Best of luck...

Steffano2002

Hi guys,

Thank you for your posts! I rang the Citizen's Information Phone Service and spoke to a very nice lady this time. I explained the situation my mother is in and she told my I should get in touch with the Rights Commissioner as this indeed sounds like a case of unfair dismissal.

I asked her if I should go to a solicitor but she explained that would cost money and that the Rights Commissioner was free and created for this kind of cases. What do you guys think?

As a result I will be contacting the Rights Commissioner after speaking with my mother.

Thank you again for your help and support. I will keep you posted.

Pongo

Go with the Rights Commisioner to be honest. Exactly what they are and how they work is explained in this link:

http://www.lrc.ie/ViewDoc.asp?CatID=16&fn=/documents/work/rights_commissioner.htm&m=w#Who%20are%20Rights%20Commissioners%20and%20what%20is%20their%20role?

Have a good read through it, it explains everything...

Yo'll find that they'll be very eager and willing to help, generally the employer tends to be seen as the bad guy to an extent, again it may all be a bit daunting, but worth it at the end of the day.

PS... If she does decide to go down the road of taking a case through the Rights Commissioners, although you don't need a solicitor, it is something to think about for the hearing. She's entitled to have someone accompany her or represent her at a hearing, you can be damn sure that her employer will have one so it might be something to think about. Then again, if she's confident enough, the sight of the mean cruel employer with his fancy expensive solicitor trying to call the poor hard working mother a liar might work in her favour...

PPS.... Again, I cannot possibly stress how useful a record of everything that has hapened to date would be in a hearing before the Rights Commissioners. In particular exactly what was said, and in what tone it was said when she was fired. The further back the record goes the better.

Steffano2002

Pongo wrote:

Go with the Rights Commisioner to be honest. Exactly what they are and how they work is explained in this link:

http://www.lrc.ie/ViewDoc.asp?CatID=16&fn=/documents/work/rights_commissioner.htm&m=w#Who%20are%20Rights%20Commissioners%20and%20what%20is%20their%20role?

Have a good read through it, it explains everything...

Thanks Pongo! I will read through all of it this week-end!

Pongo wrote:

You'll find that they'll be very eager and willing to help, generally the employer tends to be seen as the bad guy to an extent, again it may all be a bit daunting, but worth it at the end of the day.

That's nice to hear! You do tend to "feel alone" when these things happen to you...

Pongo wrote:

PS... If she does decide to go down the road of taking a case through the Rights Commissioners, although you don't need a solicitor, it is something to think about for the hearing. She's entitled to have someone accompany her or represent her at a hearing, you can be damn sure that her employer will have one so it might be something to think about. Then again, if she's confident enough, the sight of the mean cruel employer with his fancy expensive solicitor trying to call the poor hard working mother a liar might work in her favour...

My sister found a solicitor in Rathmines who specializes in these cases. He seems genuine and offers free consultation. We might contact him to see what he has to say about this particular case.

Pongo wrote:

PPS.... Again, I cannot possibly stress how useful a record of everything that has hapened to date would be in a hearing before the Rights Commissioners. In particular exactly what was said, and in what tone it was said when she was fired. The further back the record goes the better.

I told my mother about this and she remembers a lot (if not all) of these little stories. We will put pen to paper to try and capture them all and show the Rights Commissioner or a solicitor.

Thanks for all this help Pongo. You have been fantastic and I don't know how I could ever thank you properly for going out of your way to help us. Much appreciated indeed!

Pongo

No worries at all, keep us posted as to how you get on, remember it will be a fairly long drawn out affair, do a search of the likes of unison.ie or the times online for employment appeals cases, you'll get an idea of time scale from when something happened to when it got to court/ employment appeals tribunal. Also if your Mother is in any way nervous about appearing before the Commissioners, I'd suggest paying your local District Court a visit next time it's in session. Just go in early and sit near the front where you'll hear everything. It'll be an eye opener, actually, it'd be a fun way to spend a day if the cases were of the, 'interesting' sort! It'll give your Mother an idea of what a Court is really like, but remember the Rights Commissioner hearing will be a lot more comfortable.

Best of luck...

Sparkey07

Steffano2002 - how has this progressed since 27/04/07?

Firstly, your poor mother, she must be terribly upset over this... I hope the shock has now worn off and she is in focussing on doing something about this injustice!

I've just read through these threads and am astonished at this dentist's actions. His actions and blatant lack of procedure will however be much to your mother's benefit. You've had some sound advice here on this thread so far and I'm sure you've been given guidance from your solicitor.

Courts and Rights Commissioners always stand with the aggrieved employee. They'll look at it on two levels - pulling it back to the basic of who is right and who is wrong and they'll also look to see if the employer followed correct, transparent and reasonable procedures. Reasonable actions is key here!! They will want evidence of this which he obviously has not got!! The gobsh*te has left himself wide open!!


A catalogue of offences here....

1.) No contract
2.) As regards finishing at 4PM, regardless of not having this in writing they will look at what was the agreed precedent or custom of working hours for your mother during the majority of her time of employment. I.e. did she always finish at 4PM on Friday’s? Yes? Then it was assumed that this is her standard. Any change to this needs to be agreed by both parties and duly rewarded where necessary.
3.) She was not offered the option of having a witness present at the meeting with her
4.) Did he give her 24 hours NOTICE IN WRITING of disciplinary meeting??
5.) No formal disciplinary procedure followed - documented counselling, verbal warning, 1st written warning, final written warning, dismissal...
6.) Sacked her for no reason = unfair dismissal. Can't argue that he's making her role redundant here as he hasn't followed any redundancy procedures either! (you havn't mentioned that he did anyway).

Great thread!
Poor woman!
Foolish foolish dentist...

I hope it works out Steffano...
Sparkey

daveg

Jesus Christ :eek: :eek: :eek:

Had not checked on this thread for a while but cannot believe how things have progressed. Rights commissioner would be a good way forward. In a previous company I worked in one of the staff had to take a day off as his son was sick. He wanted to get Force Majure for the day off but the HR manager stood firm and said he'd have to take a holiday for the day off. He stood his ground and refused and threatened to take them to a tribunal. Plant manager double checked with the HR manager that she was right in what she was saying (legally) and she said she was. Went to the rights commissioner.

Rights commissioner asked how someone in her position (HR) would let this go to a tribunal and that she must have known she was wrong saying that this did not fall under Force Majure. She got all uppity and the commissioner effectively told her to shut the fuck up and ruled in the employees favour. Hr manager was fired the following week.

Sorry for the long winded story but you should def go to the rights commissioner for unfair dismissal.

daveg

Pongo wrote:

PPS.... Again, I cannot possibly stress how useful a record of everything that has hapened to date would be in a hearing before the Rights Commissioners. In particular exactly what was said, and in what tone it was said when she was fired. The further back the record goes the better.

Gold advice. Exactly what my mother had to do.

daveg

PPS I could give you the name of the solicitor my mother used if you like. He too is a specialist in employee/employer law and was very good. He's in Galway though?

c4cat

why not ask for help here: http://www.entemp.ie/employment/rights/