Sexism or good for the game?

Lazare

There's an ad in the latest Cardplayer for the upcoming Macau festival.

Scheduled for the Wed night they have a €200 +20 Sat for the €1500 buy in main event. Listed for the Thursday afternoon is a 'Ladies only' freeroll into the same event.

When I first read it, I thought it extremely sexist, but ironically not against men, but against women. It could obviously be construed as sexist against men, but I felt it had this patronising 'ah sure we'll give the girlies a free shot at it' feel to it.

Most girls I've played against I've found more than competent, and I'd imagine would view this charity as an insult.

You could argue it might attract new girls to the Irish poker scene, which would be great, and although some may see it as an insult, it obviously offers great value for the likes of Smurph or Joolspoker.

On the whole, it suggests to the reader that theres a difference in skill/competence between the sexes, which is utter bol*ox.

What's your views?

Marq

sexism is always good for the game.

Glowingmind

I reckon they should let you enter if you agree to wear a dress Lazare.

Lazare

Glowingmind wrote:

I reckon they should let you enter if you agree to wear a dress Lazare.

I did lie a little in my first post, my first thought was drag.

Mellor

Its just to bring new players to the game, nothing implied by it.
Its to allow new female players to play the game in comfort, I've seen and heard some pretty bad attitudes to towards girls in various places. Some really was disgraceful and would make anyone feel uncomfortable.
Obviously for female players with expierence, this game is great value, (brcause its a freeroll, not the field), and they are most likely more than happy with it.

The Clamper

strangely enough i posted a similar version of this thread only this week on another forum regarding the ladies day in Binions in June

i was informed by Binions that when they have an open to men and women day, they usually get approx 80 players, however when the have a ladies day they usually get about 200 players, its a business thing and makes sense now

at 1st glance it looks like they are saying that women are somehow weaker players and need their own tourney

however, i now believe its a man thing and we should be offended, after all they let women into our tourneys, are we so brave and is our attitude to women players such that we dont feel they are up to the task and we allow them make up the numbers?

i dont think so, i could name 10 female players that i would rather see on another table, not mine, coz they are so good at being deceptive and bluffing, the rascals

DeVore

So long as none of the contestants in that tournie ever whinge about "equal" rights again....

Most of the female poker players I know wouldnt belittle themselves.

Btw, when the Fitz travelled to play the Gutshot they suggested they put their best male and female players up against our best male and female players heads up as part of their contest.
Collette Doherty told them they could F*** off (as only Collette can) but said she WOULD play their best male player and their best female player would play our best male player.

The Gutshot didnt mention the idea again

DeV.

kincsem

Lazare wrote:

On the whole, it suggests to the reader that theres a difference in skill/competence between the sexes, which is utter bol*ox.

Surely you meant to say "utter botox" ?

Jools Poker

Lazare wrote:

There's an ad in the latest Cardplayer for the upcoming Macau festival.

Scheduled for the Wed night they have a €200 +20 Sat for the €1500 buy in main event. Listed for the Thursday afternoon is a 'Ladies only' freeroll into the same event.

When I first read it, I thought it extremely sexist, but ironically not against men, but against women. It could obviously be construed as sexist against men, but I felt it had this patronising 'ah sure we'll give the girlies a free shot at it' feel to it.

Most girls I've played against I've found more than competent, and I'd imagine would view this charity as an insult.

You could argue it might attract new girls to the Irish poker scene, which would be great, and although some may see it as an insult, it obviously offers great value for the likes of Smurph or Joolspoker.

On the whole, it suggests to the reader that theres a difference in skill/competence between the sexes, which is utter bol*ox.

What's your views?

Hey Lazare,


was interested to see your post ....I was actually in Cork last year for the festival and when I saw there was a freeroll for "ladies" I was kinda surprised but thought feck it, if betfair want to gift a seat just because I'm a woman then I'll take that positive discrimination any day of the week.!
...that said it didn't sit easy as such but in that instance the value outweighed any perceived insult and my bankroll didn't allow for an indignant direct buy-in to the main event! And in that case I do think it was a genuine attempt to attract more women to the game. As it turned out it was one of the hardest/most uncomfortable tournaments I ever played in for a variety of reasons but mainly because in general I hate playing against other women -I don't know why but I'm always wary of another woman at the table so having 8 around me was a nightmare..and it was a complete mixed bag of some casino regulars, girlfriends of local players/travelling players, some total newcomers to the game and some pretty tough nuts...structure was pretty crapshooty with it and it was just a minefield! And then you had the blokes hanging around watching and that was just cringey cos they were like guys lining up to watch women wrestling or something...watching to see us take it each other out and I dunno it was all just kinda embarassing lol
I've come across this in other guises that have been far more cringeworthy though- Celtic Poker (yeah i know i know but you get stuck sometimes in the north west for a tourney!) had a thing of giving a prize to the last woman left in the tournament and this i found more of an insult.....like you were getting a consolation prize just because of your gender..the first time I was there I thought it was a joke -Mike the TD announced in his unique brogue that the last woman standing now tonight would take home a prize!! Subtext "Fair play to the little woman now for playing the game at all ...isn't she great to sit down with all these men here now and didn't she do well to last this long!" And as the night went on he'd give a running commentary of which women were left .....I was last in a few times and I have a terrible having habit of going very red when I'm embarrassed and there's absolutely nothing I can do to stop it -suffice it to say i lit up the room on a few occasions lol:o
The thing I love about poker is the mix of people you will find at any one table and like any other diverse group of people you'll come across things like sexism just as you would anywhere else-a lot of it is can simply be attributed to being "old-school" I think and most of it is pretty harmless..and of course women can sometimes use particular sexist ideas (like the one where we never bluff...sure how could we -when we don't have any balls?!) to our advantage at the table...I usually just say you don't need balls if you have the nuts and find that as a woman who's just sat into a game I'll get a lot more respect for my raises than a guy who's just sat down beside me!
generally I just find these gender-based promotions kinda silly -it's not anything I'd get overly indignant about but unless there was very good value attached I'd simpy avoid this kind of thing. For instance I'd have no interest playing in a regular tournament that was open only to women (my idea of hell).i don't believe that there's any difference skills/competence wise between the sexes...i think it's individual character traits and competencies (which are shared by both sexes) which determine your success as a player - i know that the weaknesses in my game are attributable to things which have nothing to do with my gender (if only they could be so easily fixed lol!) Most assumptions will get you in trouble in poker- IMO assuming something about a player's ability based on their gender is one of them....

Jools


PS of course things like the Brandi/penis in back/newhouse/satellite buy-ins saga don't really help the idea of women navigating the poker world as players in their own right(though it did make for the most compulsive reading!)However it does illustrate another fascinating side the the male/female dynamic in poker ....but that's a whole other story!:D

pok3rplaya

Lazare wrote:

Most girls I've played against I've found more than competent,

Thats embarrasing

The Clamper

once while playing the Irish Open, a woman sat beside me, she was deliberately annoying some of the players at the table with comments and slow playing the nuts
she also slow rolled a few hands with the nuts and really pissed off some players

anyway, i said to her

wow, i didnt notice until just now that you were a woman, does your husband know that you are out spending his hard earned ?

man you should have seen her, did she have a blow out? absolutely

i know i shouldnt have, but then i aint really that nice a person, so its ok

pok3rplaya

Hahah thats brilliant. Wish I had been there to see that.

Blitzkrieger

I think it's good for the game. I don't think female players abilities come into it, it's more of a social thing. Ask a woman if she wants to go sit in a card room with mostly men for eight hours and see her reaction*. By encouraging more women in they're trying to build their business. A ladies only night is the perfect way for them to get used to the casino enviroment with little intimidation.

Off topic : One of the worst and loudest players in the Macau most Fridays is a woman. On the one hand she's annoying but on the other she's got big boobs......





*If she says yes, marry her!

Jools Poker

Blitzkrieger wrote:

I don't think female players abilities come into it, it's more of a social thing.


lol.......i won't even comment



Ask a woman if she wants to go sit in a card room with mostly men for eight hours and see her reaction*.

Ask a man who doesn't play cards the same thing...




*If she says yes, marry her!

if she says yes, very unlikely she'd want to marry you anyway.......

5starpool

Jools Poker wrote:

PS of course things like the Brandi/penis in back/newhouse/satellite buy-ins saga don't really help the idea of women navigating the poker world as players in their own right(though it did make for the most compulsive reading!)However it does illustrate another fascinating side the the male/female dynamic in poker ....but that's a whole other story!:D

I may be asking for trouble here, but I'll go for it anyways?

What you on about there^^^^^?

phantom_lord

do u not remember the whole brandi thing on 2+2?

Lafortezza

2+2 drama, where newhizzle who won/2nd plz in a big tournament for $$, got scammed by some hose-monster for alot of his online bankroll.
There was also rumours that she gave it up to some really old geezer for tourney entry fees.
Go back a few pages in the NVG forum on 2+2 and you'll find several billion post threads.

5starpool

Oh right. I'm fairly sure I don't care about it. I occasionally have to work so that limits my time on 2+2 to not that much, although I do read the PLO forum sometimes, but not as much as I should.

smurph

I was reading the Festival details about Macau and actually smiled when I read the womens freeroll. Agree fully with what Jools said, I have never played in a womens only poker event and certainly have no inclination to play in it either. I was actually asked to do an interview for one of the Satellite channels because I was the only female player left in the Irish Poker championships in January. It wasn't that difficult there were 310 players and only above 5 of them were women. It would have been nicer if they wanted to interview me because I got to the final table, not that I was the last women in the event.

I treat every player at the table the same, doesn't matter about gender etc., I want their chips, end of story. Women only events in poker are stupid and giving prizes for last woman standing is utterly ridiculous.

I only found out recently that Colette Doherty was the first woman to play in the WSOP main event, Won the Irish open in 1980 and 1991. She is a phenomenal player who regularly destroys the €100 Omaha game, and anyone who underestimates players because of gender, age etc., are clueless... If I ever become half the player that Colette Doherty is I will be very very happy

Lazare

pok3rplaya wrote:

Thats embarrasing

How come?
The majority of female players on the Irish poker scene are good players (my experience), conversely the majority of men are bad players.

IMO, this is due to the game being viewed by society as male dominated, therefore usually only attracting women who have a passion and talent for the game, whereby men of all abilities and lack thereof are lured.

I think this is bad, and I doubt that offering 'Ladies only' nights is the right way to go about fixing it.

Thank you Jools and Smurph, nice to hear your opinions on it.

smurph

Lazare wrote:

How come?
The majority of female players on the Irish poker scene are good players (my experience), conversely the majority of men are bad players.

IMO, this is due to the game being viewed by society as male dominated, therefore usually only attracting women who have a passion and talent for the game, whereby men of all abilities and lack thereof are lured.

I think this is bad, and I doubt that offering 'Ladies only' nights is the right way to go about fixing it.

Thank you Jools and Smurph, nice to hear your opinions on it.

good post Lazare, very good post. I think that there is a mix of good and bad players, both female and male out there at the moment, but if we all played the same it would be boring. The scary thing is that there is a growing amount of players who think they are brillant, and at every juncture, spew out advice to anyone who will listen to them, none who post here by the way.

pok3rplaya

Didn't you know it was embarrasing to get beaten by a girl?

Captain Tom

in january 06' i was in the lounge of the Citywest after playing in the Irish Poker Champoinship earlier that day.a solid woman player that was on my table was also there.i had drank too much and said something along the lines of "you're the best woman player ive played with".she basically flipped and asked why i didnt consider her one of the best players ive played with full stop.luckily my friends stepped in and calmed the situation.lesson learned.

moral of story:sexism=extremely -EV.

RoundTower

It's just another gimmick, like having a tournament only open to Waterford players or players over 65 or the deaf, it might help attract more players or more attention.

Most women players are pretty bad, just like most male players, and they're the ones who can be indignant about it. The ones who are any good wouldn't be "insulted" by this tournament. They'd think there's some good value there and play it or think it's not worth their time and ignore it.

TrueDub

smurph wrote:

I only found out recently that Colette Doherty was the first woman to play in the WSOP main event,

You sure about this? I thought a few American female players had played it since the mid-seventies.

I agree with the rest of your post, BTW.

Goodluck2me

lol at lazare, looking for a date? i know both Jools and smurph, and will warn them vehemently about you!

bops

Blitzkrieger wrote:

Off topic : One of the worst and loudest players in the Macau most Fridays is a woman. On the one hand she's annoying but on the other she's got big boobs......

she is also one of the worst players in there, me thinks she's not 100%. For some reason i always get landed beside her when i visit the macau, my ears usually take a day to recover! it's a tough one alright - probably +EV

anyways women & poker and sexism etc:
IMO i rather not have a lady at the same table in a tourney, I find that they are generaly above average players, beacuse all blokes think that they're the business, whilst women have more general kop-on and don't play unless they can.

...the bad women players at my table are WORSE for me, because I bluff alot, and the bad one's tend to be ridiculous calling stations IMO !!!!

...so to summise - most women who play are above average, and the bad ones always catch me bluffing.

Is there any men-only poker clubs left ffs????

Hectorjelly

bops wrote:

...the bad women players at my table are WORSE for me, because I bluff alot, and the bad one's tend to be ridiculous calling stations IMO !!!!

if you consistantly try and bluff calling stations, who is the real bad player?

LABLHEAD

Women have long been a marginalized group in society, if we had never faced that fact, and if the first woman to get a job, first woman to become director of a company or the first woman to enter into a political position had refused to publicise her achievement based on the fact she was a woman, we wouldn’t be living in modern society we are in today. Centuries of sexual discrimination cant be rewritten overnight it’s a gradual process and any woman who can contribute to it should be grateful for the opportunity. You cant blame people for noticing how many women have entered in a tournament when there are so little. If this is something girls want to change they should help increase the amount of women by putting their faces on the forefront of poker as much as possible and not refusing the opportunity to do so. Men could take an entirely different attitude towards women joining them at the poker table. They could take the typical chauvinistic approach and decide that it is a “men’s” game… but they’re not doing that here, in fact they’re creating incentives for women to play, and I think they should be credited for that. To complain about women’s only tournaments is totally ridiculous, women don’t compete against men in any sport, except maybe mixed doubles…The only thing I see wrong with a women’s tournament is that if they had a men’s only tournament there would be uproar. I am totally behind any efforts to increase the amount of girls playing poker, and I don’t find them one bit sexist. I actually think these efforts are the opposite, in that they are trying to create a non sexist environment in the card room.

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

if you consistantly try and bluff calling stations, who is the real bad player?

yeah i know but it's v hard to stop! it's like trying to stop smoking!! :rolleyes:

btw - are you playing in the 500 game in waterford?? - i have a plan!!

cardshark202

Lazare wrote:

How come?
The majority of female players on the Irish poker scene are good players (my experience), conversely the majority of men are bad players.

IMO, this is due to the game being viewed by society as male dominated, therefore usually only attracting women who have a passion and talent for the game, whereby men of all abilities and lack thereof are lured.

I think this is bad, and I doubt that offering 'Ladies only' nights is the right way to go about fixing it.

Thank you Jools and Smurph, nice to hear your opinions on it.

No the majority of players of both sexes suck, no point in trying to be gentlemanly about it. It just lying.

smurph

TrueDub wrote:

You sure about this? I thought a few American female players had played it since the mid-seventies.

I agree with the rest of your post, BTW.

I read it in the Paddy Power Irish Open history section. When she won the irish open in 1980 she went to the WSOP that year (I think terry rogers held back her money to make sure she went)
It's on this link www.irishpokeropen.com/docs/cardplayer_article.pdf on the left hand side of page 3. I might ask her tonight, if I pluck up the courage and if she's not destroying the €100 omaha game at the time.

Lafortezzo

sorry i dont think your points are relevant to the point of this thread. barred for a week

El Stuntman

Lafortezzo wrote:

sorry i dont think your points are relevant to the point of this thread. barred for a week

is this the 'long-awaited poker forum cleanup'?

5starpool

Lafortezzo wrote:

sorry i dont think your points are relevant to the point of this thread. barred for a week

I definitely think this is a good idea. Off you go. If as I suspect you are a reregistered user then next time you reappear and do this you will be checked out for multiple accounts and may be IP banned. Good luck, and PM me in at least a week if you want to post properly.

TrueDub

smurph wrote:

I read it in the Paddy Power Irish Open history section. When she won the irish open in 1980 she went to the WSOP that year (I think terry rogers held back her money to make sure she went)
It's on this link www.irishpokeropen.com/docs/cardplayer_article.pdf on the left hand side of page 3. I might ask her tonight, if I pluck up the courage and if she's not destroying the €100 omaha game at the time.

Wasn't calling you a liar, Smurph, I'm not half that brave! Collette told me herself she was the first Irish female to play in the WSOP, and one of the first women, but I didn't think she was the first female. I've some books upstairs that might sort it out, will post the answer here if I get anything interesting.

RasTa

What about the seniors event at the WSOP. For some reason I picture a load of old gangsters with oxygen tanks beside them