Black belt requirments

HammerHeadGym

Just out of curiousity, what do people think should be the requirments for a black belt. Is the knowledge enough or should you be able to fight?

I'm kinda thinking here of older people who join the gym, who will probably never have the fitness to take out a 20 year old.

Is it enough to know all the techniques and their execution even if you can't 'fight' per se?

cowzerp

Thats a great question.
I believe black belts are worthless at the present and it is a shame!
When i was a kid i thought blackbelts where invincible!!
now i know thats bull****, what i would like would be 2 types of black belt-1 for fighters and 1 for coaches-i know better boxers than me who are poor coaches and my boxing coaching standards are very high-so this proves that a better fighter may not be a better coach-i was watching graham norton the other day and they had this 65 year old new black belt on the show and she had to go to the police station and register as a lethal weapon!! she took graham norton down as he was looking at the camera and it was ridiculus looking-she would not be a good coach or fighter! so in my opinion the belt should be fight earned or coaching skills learned..

SorGan

HammerHeadGym wrote:

Just out of curiousity, what do people think should be the requirments for a black belt. Is the knowledge enough or should you be able to fight?

I'm kinda thinking here of older people who join the gym, who will probably never have the fitness to take out a 20 year old.

Is it enough to know all the techniques and their execution even if you can't 'fight' per se?

seams to be:)
are belts necessary at all?

ColinJennings

<rant>

You need both. A black belt is not an expert. Rather it is simply stating that you know enough basics to start learning more difficult stuff.

I do TKD and am a first degree black belt.
Am I an unstopable fighter? No
Am I even a good fighter? No
Do I know every technique? No
Do I know most of the techniques? No
Do I even apply the few techniques I do know? No
Am I an excellent coach? No

So what is a black belt? It is certainly not an expert. I did think I was great for a while after getting my black belt, but now I don't. I think that as you progress up the grades that you become more like what most people think of as a black belt.

I'm a capable fighter. I can punch and kick. I can block and deflect. I still don't want to have to test it for real.
I'm a capable coach. I've made enough mistakes myself to tell you when you are repeating them.
I'm not an expert. I've merely met the arbitrary limit that someone set before you start learning more advanced techniques. I'm still very proud of being a black belt, but I am not what I thought a black belt was when I started.

</rant>

dlofnep

A belt holds your pants up. It's whatever you make of it. Martial arts are too diverse to put a meaning on a black belt. In Europe, a black belt is generally a symbol of years long of accomplishment, in Japan - it's just a symbol that you've grasped the basics and are now ready to learn.

A black belt should be a competent fighter. If he's coaching and not competent, then I'd hope it's because he's old and out of shape - but at one point in his life was a very capable fighter. Cowzer, I think boxing is a different ballpark - I don't know what it is, alot of great boxing coaches have never had a great professional career, but they have at least had a career and understand the concepts of boxing - which is why they were good coaches. Some people are just naturally more gifted than others, which probably explains alot.

King.Penguin

A belt holds your gi together. Black belt is the coolest belt.

Niall Keane

Were belts not a relatively modern phenomenon invented by the Japanese to instil a military hierarchy into martial arts? Is it not about control? How someone though physically and strategically more intelligent must be subservient and take orders from his instructor / commander of higher rank. This is important in military combat; a soldier has to take orders without question, even if that means certain death. Fainting an attack with certain losses is often necessary in order to gain a victory. If a soldier questioned his suicidal orders, the entire squad could be lost, so better the few I guess. Take WW2 and American bombers flying into Japan. The height of flying operations was dropped based on statistical analysis. This meant more personnel losses. A height was agreed upon taking factors such as accuracy, rate of survival, cost of bombs and cost of training. Cold yes, but militarily necessary.
Now it is my understanding that many Japanese martial arts were adopted into their countries military training to give cannon fodder / infantry a belief in them selves i.e. how to gain the courage to go over the top so to speak. A soldier who thinks is a liability to the greater war effort.
In China martial arts were passed traditionally from master to disciple, a Chinese saying states: there are two mentalities in the world – a slave who bows to those he believes to be better than him and expects those he believes to be inferior to bow to him, and a fighter who bows to no man and expects no man to bow to him.
Do you believe the likes of Cro Cop, etc. actually believes that anyone is better than him, if he couldn’t destroy his sparring partners what would be the point of fighting internationally? A fighter that accepts that he is not the best is setting himself up for failure; he has given himself an excuse not to be the best. It is like people who suddenly develop back pains or other injuries before fights, “here’s the reason I didn’t win”. It is mentally easier to fail not having given 100% than it is to fail having tried your best. However I believe after the fact you can live with yourself in defeat having tried your best, but not so knowing that you cheated yourself.
I see some competitions now divided into certain belt ranking, I have to wonder is this to protect the athletes, or to protect the face of black belts being owned by lesser ranks.
I recall some years ago a Swedish 19 year old destroying all before him in freestyle wrestling, and Iron Man comps throughout Europe. He even beat Kamal Locke, a fellow Practical Tai Chuan fighter who had taken Ian the Machine the distance.
But this lad would never have been given such an opportunity under many martial systems.
Belts are only good for one thing holding up military kakis!

Regards,

Niall

mark.leonard

I am pretty sure that belts were conceived by Kano for Judo to have a way to categorise fighters in competition by relative skill levels. The concept was seized by other arts and hasn't been the same since. Judo and Jiu Jitsu both have practical requirements not present in other more traditional arts that make the belt a worthy goal, which does ensure a very high level of ability. Not so other arts like TKD, Karate, Kung Fu etc.

As for someone older joining late, I think this is a cop out to be honest, older guys can use different tactics to fight, but the techniques will be the same, maybe they will have a cardio deficiency, but going by the older guys in my gym, that is only a possibility!

arybvtcw0eolkf

mark.leonard wrote:

I am pretty sure that belts were conceived by Kano for Judo to have a way to categorise fighters in competition by relative skill levels. The concept was seized by other arts and hasn't been the same since. Judo and Jiu Jitsu both have practical requirements not present in other more traditional arts that make the belt a worthy goal, which does ensure a very high level of ability. Not so other arts like TKD, Karate, Kung Fu etc.!

Thats about 100% accurate. Its all dealt with in Jigoro Kano's Kodokan Judo book.

mark.leonard wrote:

As for someone older joining late, I think this is a cop out to be honest, older guys can use different tactics to fight, but the techniques will be the same, maybe they will have a cardio deficiency, but going by the older guys in my gym, that is only a possibility!

I started Judo at something like 37, I'm 41 now. And honestly, I feel no different than when I was doing kickboxing at 21. Only difference is I recover slower from injury, and most importantly, I don't have Mammy cooking my meals, washing my M.A. gear and tucking me in at night (i.e. real life gets in the way now!!).

Oh as regards the belts. Like most who've got the black I look on it differently now. I thought I was the dog's bollix with the K.B. BB until I went over to Judo and found a marked difference in the ranks.

In Judo you must fight for your belt after green, you can not be graded in the club after that point.

As a 'fighter' I hold Judo rankings in very high regard because the belt has been both won on the mat and the fighter/player has also shown a knowledge of the Judo syllabus.

judomick

the coloured belt system as we know it up to black belt was introduced by Kawaishi in paris he thought students would progress better if the had short term aims, Kano only introduced the red and white belt for higher grades i.e 8th dan, to this day in japan there is only white and black belts

pma-ire

a black belt means many things to people.

what it has meant in the past or in other arts is one of the reasons that we have different ma's in the world now that use the belt ranking system.

for me, i would award bb's for different reasons depending on the ability of the person.

1st. it should depend on the amount of effort that the person puts into there training.

2nd. it should be based on how they apply that skill or knowledge.

if you apply this to people no matter there physical capacity then you have a fair system. now you run into problems where you stop a persons advancement due to you comparing them to a standard that they could never reach!! i am talking about people in wheelchair's or with some physical or mental problem that holds them back from performing ma's to an exceptional level.

end story! martial arts are for everyone! they boost a persons confidence as well as the other usual aspects. if you hold someone back to much without really judging a person on there level or potential level, then you are doing them a dis-service.

LukeyJudo22

As mick said in japan there is only white and black belts, the idea for the belts getting darker (afaik) as the practitioner progresses -eg from white to blue to black - is because back in the day in japan everyone wore white belts which were never washed (they still aren't) so obviously they just got dirtier and worn out through time so when you walked into a dojo you could judge the badasses who trained for years and years by the state of their belt.

It should be the same nowadays. Black belts should be good fighters. The judo grading system is a good one because not only do you have to fight for your belts after green your grade is recognised world wide. If your a black belt in Ireland your a black belt anywhere else in the world.

For most internationals black belt is the minimum requirement anyway.

But I believe that judo only really opens up to you when you get your black belt. Then you really start learning.

Another thing aswell... the only really important belt to me in judo was my black belt. I couldn't be bothered with dan grades.

Also a good thing about judo is junior grades. If your under 16 you cannot get a black belt. If you were a junior brown belt and you turned 16 you would be awarded a senior blue belt. So you'd have to fight seniors for your senior grades. Which I think is right.

Certain martial arts that churn out the black belts to kids around the age of 8 or 9 really annoy me.

-Luke

LukeyJudo22

Anyways isn't there a lot of fighting disciplines that don't use belts? boxing for example? Wrestling? Does muay thai use belts?

All that really matters is hours on the mat or in the ring. For martial arts that use belts a black belt should be an honest and realistic indication of a persons ability.

Roper

I use belts in my club for kids as rewards and as a sign that they're improving. I think to give an adult the same treatment is condescending.

Even if someone thinks they want a black belt or a yellow belt or whatever then they're probably a bit low on confidence and need someone to tell them they're improving, or they're quite shallow and need to point out to other people how much bling they have on their waist.

Anecdote time. Some of you may know that we started out as a taekwondo club with all the trimmings of belts etc. Anyway, when I was abolishing the belt system after the great war of independence a couple of years ago, one fella was quite miffed and got a bit peed off. Anyway, we had an argument, actually, he had an argument with me as he was a good bit up in the belts (I could see his point to an extent). Anyway, it ended with me saying that instead he should bring in his copy book and I'd give him a gold star from time to time if it'd shut him up. He got the message I think. Still doesn't like me much.

Nothingcompares

the problem is you can't start dissing the whole black belt propoganda until you have a black belt your self

the only thing I'll say about the difference between a combat sport like boxing that has no belts and judo that has lots of belt is that the sparring in boxing is very controlled and supervised where as in judo it's randori and you just grab the guy standing beside you. In boxing, for sparring you try and match people up based on ability and size, usually done by the coach. but in judo, you don't have the instructor going around telling people who to spar with. so the belts are a good way of grabbing someone you think will give you a good go.

LukeyJudo22

Roper wrote:

Anecdote time. Some of you may know that we started out as a taekwondo club with all the trimmings of belts etc. Anyway, when I was abolishing the belt system after the great war of independence a couple of years ago, one fella was quite miffed and got a bit peed off. Anyway, we had an argument, actually, he had an argument with me as he was a good bit up in the belts (I could see his point to an extent). Anyway, it ended with me saying that instead he should bring in his copy book and I'd give him a gold star from time to time if it'd shut him up. He got the message I think. Still doesn't like me much.

LOL Yeah nice!

But see Barry you coach an mma club right? So there is no real need or demand for belts or whatever. It's one of those disciplines I mentioned that don't use belts but produce fantastic fighters!

But judo is an established worldwide olympic sport. And the belts have been there for a long time and tbh I don't mind them at all. I know a guy abroad who's crazy for dan grades who's like a couple ahead of me and i murder him on the mat every time...

Some people just love wearing the belts and looking the cheese but lack the randori experience you would expect of someone so high up in the grades!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Anecdote time. Some of you may know that we started out as a taekwondo club with all the trimmings of belts etc. Anyway, when I was abolishing the belt system after the great war of independence a couple of years ago, one fella was quite miffed and got a bit peed off. Anyway, we had an argument, actually, he had an argument with me as he was a good bit up in the belts (I could see his point to an extent). Anyway, it ended with me saying that instead he should bring in his copy book and I'd give him a gold star from time to time if it'd shut him up. He got the message I think. Still doesn't like me much.

i would guess he's not training with you anymore??

how do you conduct your kids gradings (if at all) for there belts??

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

i would guess he's not training with you anymore??

how do you conduct your kids gradings (if at all) for there belts??

Actually, he is!

I do a "test" for the kids every few months where they get to basically come out and show off to their parents what they've learned and how well they're doing. Its an event for them rather than an exam, and completing it gives them a greater sense of achievment and boosts their confidence, especially for kids who won't go into competitions and the like.

Most MA Instructors I know laugh at me when I tell them how I do it. Usually the questions are like "Where's the structure for them" as though theres no structure without bowing, shouting in unison and marching up and down in lines. I've challenged people on the merits of their more militaristic gradings and one of the responses I got was "It prepares them for life- exams, job interviews etc." and this was said without irony! Where is the joy in sport when your coach is trying to teach you how to stand in line like a chump?

Mark Hamill

Roper wrote:

I've challenged people on the merits of their more militaristic gradings and one of the responses I got was "It prepares them for life- exams, job interviews etc." and this was said without irony!

HaHa
"join Rex Kwon Do and learn flying roundhouse kicks, ancient death moves and how to sell yourself at an interview"

DITTKD

I think a lot of you dudes are focussing on the “martial” bit and not the “arts” bit. The belt (should) show that you have an understanding of whatever art it is you’re doing. Personally I never thought of Martial Arts as being the same as fighting. Fighting is one thing. Martial Arts is something else. So it boxing or whatever. I know that sounds a bit wanky but it’s just my opinion.
I like having a belt system myself. I like to see that I’m progressing and that I have targets to aim for. That’s why I took up an MA rather than jogging on a treadmill or something, going nowhere. It’s just for my benefit, when I get to black belt, sure I’ll be happy with myself, but I’m not going to show it off.

As for Judo, correct me if I’m wrong but, it’s not a martial art is it? Therefore, the belts are something like an individual version of league divisions in soccor no?

judomick

DITTKD wrote:

As for Judo, correct me if I’m wrong but, it’s not a martial art is it? Therefore, the belts are something like an individual version of league divisions in soccor no?

your wrong and as i stated in the post above in Japan there are 2 common belts white and black, its a western thing for coloured belts the reason the are there is to show people how they are progressing, the coloured belt system was first used in judo other martial arts then adopted the concept

DITTKD

judomick wrote:

your wrong and as i stated in the post above in Japan there are 2 common belts white and black, its a western thing for coloured belts the reason the are there is to show people how they are progressing, the coloured belt system was first used in judo other martial arts then adopted the concept

OK I'm wrong. I heard once from a convincing source that Judo wasn't a martial art so that's where that comes from. Apologies.

Nothingcompares

I love this kind of thing. Is there a big list up on bruce lee's wall in which people decide which endeavours are martial arts and which aren't? According to your source where do

boxing
fencing
kickboxing
table tennis

lie?

dlofnep

LukeyJudo22 wrote:

Certain martial arts that churn out the black belts to kids around the age of 8 or 9 really annoy me.

-Luke

When we training over in England - the B&B we were staying at, the owners had an 11 year old kid who was a second degree black belt in some form of traditional jiu-jitsu. She boasted his cert about - naturally, we nodded and smiled politely.

DITTKD

Nothingcompares wrote:

I love this kind of thing. Is there a big list up on bruce lee's wall in which people decide which endeavours are martial arts and which aren't? According to your source where do

boxing
fencing
kickboxing
table tennis

lie?

Dunno buddy. The guy was a very experienced Judo practicioner himself. He was a very contrary sort though, he must have been in a bad mood or something.

Nothingcompares

depends on your out look. a lot of judo people don't want to be associated with martial arts because martial arts mean to joe bloggs TKD and Karate and kung fu - The idea of some old Chinese dude on a waterfall practising kata. While judo is like boxing and wrestling, a combat sport with minimal ritual and a emphasis on performance.

if you define martial arts you can't exclude judo, boxing, wrestling or mma from it unless you definition states no combat sports.

SorGan

Nothingcompares wrote:

depends on your out look. a lot of judo people don't want to be associated with martial arts because martial arts mean to joe bloggs TKD and Karate and kung fu - The idea of some old Chinese dude on a waterfall practising kata. While judo is like boxing and wrestling, a combat sport with minimal ritual and a emphasis on performance.

if you define martial arts you can't exclude judo, boxing, wrestling or mma from it unless you definition states no combat sports.

they still wear P.J.s though

Nothingcompares

yeah well that's the thing, boxing, wrestling, thai don't have belts because well, they don't need them because they have no functional purpose

Hank_Scorpio

Bruce Lee wrote this and ever since I read it 3 years ago I've adopted it. He was right.

Too much horsing around with unrealistic stances and classic forms and rituals is just too artificial and mechanical, and doesn't really prepare the student for actual combat. A guy could get clobbered while getting into this classical mess. Classical methods like these, which I consider a form of paralysis, only solidify and constrain what was once fluid. Their practitioners are merely blindly rehearsing routines and stunts that will lead nowhere.

I believe that the only way to teach anyone proper self-defence is to approach each individual personally. Each one of us is different and each one of us should be taught the correct form. By correct form I mean the most useful techniques the person is inclined toward. Find his ability and then develop these techniques. I don't think it is important whether a side kick is performed with the heel higher than the toes, as long as the fundamental principle is not violated. Most classical martial arts training is a mere imitative repetition - a product - and individuality is lost.

When one has reached maturity in the art, one will have a formless form. It is like ice dissolving in water. When one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style.

Black Swan

If you are committed, a black belt is just a step along the way. You need both the will and the skill, and you can never stop learning. Part of learning is sparring, so if you don't fight, your skill will be limited. Aside from practice in your dojang or dojo, tournaments are grand ways to add a little more to skill mastery. Coaching, teaching, ref'ing, judging can also add to your learning, so a black belt and certification are often entry-level requirements. I try to do all, when my day job scheduling permits.

Cake Fiend

LukeyJudo22 wrote:

the idea for the belts getting darker (afaik) as the practitioner progresses -eg from white to blue to black - is because back in the day in japan everyone wore white belts which were never washed (they still aren't) so obviously they just got dirtier and worn out through time

LOL! Sorry mate, but this is just a load of romantic twaddle that was invented to sell books on the back of the mystical properties a lot of westerners attribute to martial arts.

Also, coloured belts have been used in any Japanese dojo I've ever trained in (they even wash their belts over there too! :eek: :rolleyes: ).

cowzerp

A judo friend of mine that trained in japan told me that they do use coloured belts and that it was not true about only using white and black belts!
i believe her as she knows her judoka well..

dlofnep

That would depend on the school I guess ^

Anyone I've ever spoke to who's trained in japan has vouched for white belts & black belts in judo only.

HammerHeadGym

dlofnep wrote:

...white belts & black belts in judo...

Yep. I've been in the Kodokan a half a dozen times and there were only whites or blacks. Much like ameerica in the fifties. However the whites have to get up to give the blacks their seats.

Nothingcompares

Paul was that a Denis that told you that? I think the children classes have colour belts. Maybe some of the clubs outside of kodokan use colour belts for adults too?

cowzerp

Nothingcompares wrote:

Paul was that a Denis that told you that? I think the children classes have colour belts. Maybe some of the clubs outside of kodokan use colour belts for adults too?

It was indeed-good friend of mine, she said that thats where the belt system came from! nothing gets past you!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

judomick wrote:

the coloured belt system as we know it up to black belt was introduced by Kawaishi in paris he thought students would progress better if the had short term aims, Kano only introduced the red and white belt for higher grades i.e 8th dan, to this day in japan there is only white and black belts

Other colored belts for students who had not yet achieved black belt originated later, when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. He felt that western students would show greater progress if they had a visible system of many colored belts recognizing achievement and providing regular incentives. This system included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts.

Taken from; http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm

Another good read regarding belts and ranks..

http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm

cowzerp

I asked again today and was told that they wear white or black belts while training but still use the same grading system, 1 of there friends is currently studying in the home of judo-cant remember name! and wears a brown belt!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ever so slightly off topic.

Was talking to an old friend today regarding belts, club number's and competitors.

He's almost 100 member's of which only "about 25 compete" and went on the tell me that the average time to get to your BB grading was SIX YEAR'S. (Mugendo kickboxing AKAI, Coolock).

I told him that in Judo after your green belt it was largely up to the lad on the matt when he wanted to grade as he'd have to fight for his belt..

"F**k that, I wish it was that easy with us" (although he sets the syllabbus, gradings etc) "it takes us an average of six year's before grading for the BB".

"F*** that Liam, if they had to fight for their belts you wouldn't have 70++ members paying your hall rental and never fighting, what are you looking for?".

Although the Judo BB can be won relatively quickly compared to some styles, those same judoka with Blue, Brown or Black have actually fought for their belted and shown a knowledge of the syllabbus.