A series of random coincidences?

MissFitz

Just interested in hearing people's opinions on this.

I don't believe in God but sometimes I think I believe in fate. Not in a having your life pre-planned or predestined kind of way, but say for example the idea of soul-mates, or things that happen in your life that seem meant to be, or friends it seems you were meant to know?

Or is it all a figment of my imagination and I'm just lucky in some of the choices I've made What do you think?

coffee_cake

My belief in karma is conflicting with my urge to say "just luck"... maybe it's both.
That and people who are similar may well just attract each other as friends etc so it's straightforward enough you'd know who you know...
plus if you'd made a different group of friends you might think you were "just meant to" know them as well

Zillah

MissFitz wrote:

Or is it all a figment of my imagination and I'm just lucky in some of the choices I've made What do you think?

Its almost certainly a figment of your imagination. If something was meant to happen, how so? Someone made it happen? Try and define what you mean, because I suspect it doesn't really mean anything.

If you've been lucky enough in your life to be in the situation where you feel like it was meant to happen, then consider yourself lucky, there's all those people in the world who starve and die without dignity or happiness. Wheres their fate?

If the world was a village of 100 people, then 50 would be malnourished and 1 dying of starvation, 33 would be without access to a safe water supply and 80 would live in substandard housing. If there is a fate, why does it show such favouritism for people born in the West?

MissFitz

bluewolf wrote:

My belief in karma is conflicting with my urge to say "just luck"... maybe it's both.

Interesting... I am also enclined to believe in karma, but maybe not in the way that others would define it. I believe that positive / good thoughts and actions attract the same in return, but don't believe in reincarnation or the "groundhog day" kind of thing, whereby we would relive our lives until moral perfection is reached. I do believe that a negative attitude / energy / aura (whatever you wish to call it) leads to being treated negatively.

@Zillah
I am finding it hard to define exactly what I mean, I have only recently come to the realisation that I don't believe in God, so I have a million and one ponderings going around my head atm, this being one of them

Of course I am lucky by way of my circumstances of birth, I don't doubt that. Neither do I believe that those born in less fortunate circumstances somehow "deserve" it. If I hadn't been born in the West then I would have not much in common with my current friends.

Maybe fate is the wrong word to describe what I am talking about, maybe a better question would be: how do I somehow come to encounter these people in my life? You may say through similar education, upbringing, career etc. But I have come across many many people arising from these commonalities and very few I would consider special or meant to be


I'm even confusing myself here :rolleyes:

coffee_cake

MissFitz wrote:

Interesting... I am also enclined to believe in karma, but maybe not in the way that others would define it. I believe that positive / good thoughts and actions attract the same in return, but don't believe in reincarnation or the "groundhog day" kind of thing, whereby we would relive our lives until moral perfection is reached. I do believe that a negative attitude / energy / aura (whatever you wish to call it) leads to being treated negatively.

Sure, negative actions can lead to negative reactions, that's part of it.
Urgh, what I was trying to say (am really tired and not eloquent at the best of times anyway) is karma in the sense of, your actions have certain effects generally which creates new situations and then you end up reborn into those situations you created. Sort of.
But you don't believe in reibrth, so that's that.

I'm even confusing myself here :rolleyes:

Me too:o

Nature Boy

Have you known many people i your life? If so, chances are that eventually you'll find friends/partners etc that feel right.

I'm the same as you, I have lots of people in my life that I get along with perfectly and I wouldn't have them any other way, but I'm sure there are other people in the world who I would get along with just as well. I'm just one of the lucky ones. Just think of the amount of people that aren't in the same boat as you! Some people are just bound to have good things happen to them .

I think this is similar to believing in God. If we can't explain something, we can't just make up an explanation. If all this is not just coincidence then we just don't know what it is and there's nothing else we can say about it!

pinksoir

MissFitz wrote:

Maybe fate is the wrong word to describe what I am talking about, maybe a better question would be: how do I somehow come to encounter these people in my life? You may say through similar education, upbringing, career etc. But I have come across many many people arising from these commonalities and very few I would consider special or meant to be


I'm even confusing myself here :rolleyes:

if you have time i'd suggest reading plato's lysis. it discusses the reasons behind friendship pretty comprehensively. there are different types of friendship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysis_(dialogue)
http://philosophy.eserver.org/plato/lysis.txt

that wikipedia entry doesn't really do the text justice. it's pretty short and might just give you a start at better understanding the nature of friendship (though its over 2000 years old and its dealing with ancient greek 'friendship' the basics are more or less the same)

cheers,
karl

MissFitz

Nature Boy wrote:

Just think of the amount of people that aren't in the same boat as you! Some people are just bound to have good things happen to them .

I think this is similar to believing in God. If we can't explain something, we can't just make up an explanation. If all this is not just coincidence then we just don't know what it is and there's nothing else we can say about it!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying bad things have never happened to me, because they have in the past. In the past year or two, I'm at a more peaceful / satisfied place mentally and this seems to have transferred to my everyday life. I just don't find myself in situations where bad things happen (probably down to maturity(?))

If it's not just coincidence and I don't believe in God, what is it? Maybe that's a question I shouldn't look for an answer to and just accept it be happy with my lot

pinksoir wrote:

if you have time i'd suggest reading plato's lysis. it discusses the reasons behind friendship pretty comprehensively. there are different types of friendship.

Looks interesting I might check that out!

Zombrex

MissFitz wrote:

Or is it all a figment of my imagination and I'm just lucky in some of the choices I've made What do you think?

Personally, I think it is that.

Our brains tend to notice things that we find interesting, and discard what we don't. Events will take on more "meaning" to us is we notice patterns around these events, even if these patterns are random. A bus journey will stand out if a person you went to primary school gets on the bus, particularly if it is something like the first time you got the bus, or you are in a place you had never been before. You will go "what are the odds" and remember this with significance.

It is actually a very fascinating subject, the study of how random (or not) "random" events actually are from a mathematical point of view.

As with I lot of "supernatural" things I always feel that what is actually going on is far more interesting that anything humans have made up to try and explain it, such as fate

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote:

As with I lot of "supernatural" things I always feel that what is actually going on is far more interesting that anything humans have made up to try and explain it, such as fate

Surprised that nobody has mentiond Synchronicity,"'acausal connecting principle'" (i.e. a pattern of connection that cannot be explained by direct causality)

Fallen Seraph

MissFitz wrote:

If it's not just coincidence and I don't believe in God, what is it? Maybe that's a question I shouldn't look for an answer to and just accept it be happy with my lot

I'd be inclined to think that the answer is huge numbers.
I mean think how many people there are in Dublin alone. About a million the last time I heard. some of them are bound to be happy and have things go great for them. The larger a group of people the more likely a given "coincidence" is to happen to at least one of them.

And what, then, of the people who aren't you and are unhappy?

Zombrex

Asiaprod wrote:

Surprised that nobody has mentiond Synchronicity,"'acausal connecting principle'" (i.e. a pattern of connection that cannot be explained by direct causality)

Just read the Wikipedia page .. very interesting idea, though as the page points out more pseudo-science than science

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote:

Just read the Wikipedia page .. very interesting idea, though as the page points out more pseudo-science than science

Well here is an example that happened only yesterday.
I rang my friend to arrange to meet later. He has 2 phones in his house. He was in the process of ringing his wife. He got as far as dialing the fist 4 digits 033-4 and the other phone, with me on it, rang. Since he was rining his wife in another country, I said I would ring back.
One hour later I did so. Once again, He was in the process of ringing his wife. He had got as far as dialing the fist 4 digits 033-4 and the other phone, with me on it, rang. We were both amazed. Since he was rining his wife in another country, I said I would ring back.
One hour later I did so. This time, he was just picking up the phone to ring his wife again because she was out shopping. Once again, the other phone, with me on it, rang.
We had a good laugh that this time I had timed it better, and the topic turned to Synchronicity. We are both Buddhists, he actually introduced me, we both swear by the I Ching, and are believers in Synchronicity.
I know it is thought of as being more a pseudo-science than science, but it make one stop and think. Damn interesting subject, and I find it happens to me quite a lot. I think the I Ching, Buddhism and Synchroicity are closely connected.

Dades

Asiaprod wrote:

Well here is an example that happened only yesterday.

Cue: every atheist/sceptic furiously searching for a rational explanation.

robindch

Two things to bear in mind:

1. What are the chances of it happening randomly? People ring each other all the time, especially ones who know each other. Two people who don't know each other ringing each other at the same time -- now that's strange, but two who do? Not so weird. What about the timing -- was it at the start of an ad-break on the telly or after the main evening news? Unusual explanations should only need to be invoked when the usual ones don't work. How many times do you ring somebody and no co-incidence occurs? Probably quite a few -- quantify it -- I'd imagine around one or two percent are calls trip something unusual.

2. Human brains are very good pattern matching machines and selectively seek meaning and agency where there may not be any. Remember that synchronicity, when boiled down, implies agency. Be careful of framing problems so that they assume a solution of a particular form.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket.

Zombrex

robindch wrote:

Two things to bear in mind:

1. What are the chances of it happening randomly? People ring each other all the time, especially ones who know each other. Two people who don't know each other ringing each other at the same time -- now that's strange, but two who do? Not so weird. What about the timing -- was it at the start of an ad-break on the telly or after the main evening news? Unusual explanations should only need to be invoked when the usual ones don't work. How many times do you ring somebody and no co-incidence occurs? Probably quite a few -- quantify it -- I'd imagine around one or two percent are calls trip something unusual.

2. Human brains are very good pattern matching machines and selectively seek meaning and agency where there may not be any. Remember that synchronicity, when boiled down, implies agency. Be careful of framing problems so that they assume a solution of a particular form.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket.

I would agree with all of that

How many phone calls does someone make in a life time? Ignoring the other factors (the fact that once it has happened you are thinking about it again) the odds that at some point in Asia's life he will actually do this are probably relatively likely. He remembers this one because it actually happened and was weighted with significance by his brain.

There is also the fact that there are systems at work that we are unaware of that makes these things more likely. The fact that both Asia and his friend were thinking about this after it first happened, taking into account the average time someone would wait before making another phone call etc etc, could decrease the time frame to be considered to a much smaller window, thus making the odds of it happening much higher

{EDIT} If something is likely to happen does that mean the odds are high or low? Can never remember {/EDIT}

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

Sorry to be such a wet blanket.

Not at all, it is very interesting.

Myksyk

Consider the enormous amount of overlapping life lines that could be conceived of in any given day. It would be more extraordinary if there were not outstanding co-incidences. On a simplistic level, if some thing has a one in six billion chance of happening, it should be almost bound to happen to someone.

robindch

Wicknight wrote:

If something is likely to happen does that mean the odds are high or low? Can never remember

Low odds = low probability = not very likely; high-odds = high probability = quite likely. More here:

http://www.columbia.edu/~ag2319/teaching/G4075_Outline/node15.html

If somebody can tell me how to remember the difference between long-sighted and short-sighted, do let me know...

coffee_cake

robindch wrote:

Low odds = low probability = not very likely; high-odds = high probability = quite likely. More here:

http://www.columbia.edu/~ag2319/teaching/G4075_Outline/node15.html

If somebody can tell me how to remember the difference between long-sighted and short-sighted, do let me know...

I thought longsighted was when you see things further away from you more clearly but they get blurry when they're close up and short sighted is the reverse

Scofflaw

bluewolf wrote:

I thought longsighted was when you see things further away from you more clearly but they get blurry when they're close up and short sighted is the reverse

Yup. Long-sighted = clear far away. Short-sighted = clear close to.


cordially,
Scofflaw

NotMe

I think when people talk about fate they are just connecting the inevitable* good things in their life with decisions or events in the past.

*I believe that everything I do/ everything that happens to me will have both good and bad consequences to varying degrees.

Say I have a job interview and I really want the job. In the short term I see getting the job as being good and not getting it as bad. In the long term it's not that certain.

Maybe I don't get the job so I decide to travel. While I'm abroad I meet the love of my life and we end up getting married. I'm glad I didn't get that job or I never would have met this person. Is this fate?

Or maybe I do get the job and I meet someone that I have so much in common with it's unreal. And we become best friends. I'm glad I got this job or I never would have met this person. Fate?


/waffle

stevejazzx

OP

This is an extremely interssting subject raised by myself here as one of my first forrays into this murky forum.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054964597&referrerid=&highlight=


Originally Posted by Carl Jung extract - overview

Synchronicity is an explanatory principle, according to its creator, Carl Jung. Synchronicity explains "meaningful coincidences," such as a beetle flying into his room while a patient was describing a dream about a scarab. The scarab is an Egyptian symbol of rebirth, he noted. Therefore, the propitious moment of the flying beetle indicated that the transcendental meaning of both the scarab in the dream and the insect in the room was that the patient needed to be liberated from her excessive rationalism. His notion of synchronicity is that there is an acausal principle that links events having a similar meaning by their coincidence in time rather than sequentially. He claimed that there is a synchrony between the mind and the phenomenal world of perception

stevejazzx wrote:

Just because you can debunk something on statistical level doesn't mean that you have covered the completeness of that event, just that you have shown that the said event has a stronger probabilty of being explained within the confines of already known science.