Speed Limit Enforcement, the Swiss approach

embraer170

Wasn't sure if I shoud post this here or in Motors.

Recently read a piece on Swiss speed limit enforcement and thought it was pretty interesting given the debate about the topic here. I personally think it' s a little over the top (and don't see speeding as the key problem in Ireland) but I'm sure such measures would be very quick to stop anyone from speeding.

- - -

5km/h tolerance allowed in all cases.

CAUTION = fine based on your income, typical minimum EUR 1000.
BAN is for a minimum of three months and carries the same income related fine as a CAUTION,

Mandatory JAIL sentences can usually be taken during your weekend (for example every weekend for three months)
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Urban

1-5 km/h EUR 25
6-10 km/h EUR 75
11-15 km/h EUR 153
16-20 km/h EUR CAUTION
21-25 km/h EUR BAN
26-30 km/h EUR BAN
31-35 km/h EUR JAIL
> 35 km/h JAIL

Rural

1-5 km/h EUR 25
6-10 km/h EUR 62
11-15 km/h EUR 100
16-20 km/h EUR 140
21-25 km/h EUR CAUTON
26-30 km/h EUR BAN
31-35 km/h EUR BAN
> 35 km/h JAIL

Motorway

1-5 km/h EUR 13
6-10 km/h EUR 37
11-15 km/h EUR 72
16-20 km/h EUR 110
21-25 km/h EUR 160
26-30 km/h EUR CAUTION
31-35 km/h EUR BAN
> 35 km/h BAN OR JAIL

- - -

So do 86 km/h in a 50 km/h zone (not the hardest thing to do) and get a mandatory jail sentence.

On a short 50km strech between Geneva and Lausanne, there are almost 50 active speed cameras.

SeanW

Yeah that would be over the top. My experience (and I don't speed much, mostly my own limited experience and what I see others doing) is that anything up to the speed limit plus 10-15k is relatively safe, depending on the actual level of driving skill as well as extra care and attention paid by the driver.

If I were to make a hypthetical metric for speeding punishments, it would go something like this:

Speed limit + 0-15km/h. 2 penalty points and €100 fine.
Speed limit +15-25km/h. 3 penalty points and €200 fine.
Speed limit +25-45km/h. Large fine, court appearance, disqualification up to six months, depending on the case.
Speed limit +45km/h. A three month all-expenses paid trip to Mountjoy.

cyclopath2001

SeanW wrote:

is that anything up to the speed limit plus 10-15k is relatively safe, depending on the actual level of driving skill as well as extra care and attention paid by the driver.

It may be safe for the driver, but what if a pedestrian or cyclists makes a mistake? Your extra speed could make the difference between life & death as it will increase the severity of injury.

Please, obey the law and leave a safety margin for others.

Slice

anything up to the speed limit plus 10-15k is relatively safe

That is such a stupid comment

Skyhater

I think it's a great idea..... Goes back to my argument in this tread about enforcement!!!

However, the one prerequisite would be common sense speed limits!!!!
So many speed limits in Ireland are completely insane and inconsistent.

jimbling

no one should ever get a jail sentence for speeding*. The punishment just does not fit the crime.


*Speeding is different from a total and utter disregard for the safety of others etc etc etc. But if that is the case, you are probably breaking numerous other laws anyway.

Ham'nd'egger

SeanW wrote:

Yeah that would be over the top. My experience (and I don't speed much, mostly my own limited experience and what I see others doing) is that anything up to the speed limit plus 10-15k is relatively safe, depending on the actual level of driving skill as well as extra care and attention paid by the driver

Sean, only last week my good self and a mate had a debate in the pub with a friend of mine who felt as you do, only with very blinkered conceitedness of his quality driving (You are not conceited, let me say that first off!). According to him, he was a safe driver, the speed limit was what he personally deemed safe and not the law, crashes were caused by other people making mistakes (Which he never made) and that the Road Safety campaigners were distorting figures to their own use and were hell bent ono stopping road users from enjoying driving!

Certainly in my view, extra care and attention shown by a driver has to include adhering to the speed limit applicable to any one section of road, however harsh or incorrect one may feel it is, and slower where and if required. It may feel that you personally are safe in your car, but are your other motorists safe beside you? I would be fearful seeing say a Porsche or Subaru beside me at speed passing me out (which are build and engineered to be driven faster than a family car), but a FIAT Punto or Hyundai Atoz or Nissan Micra doing same?

Stark

Hamndegger wrote:

t may feel that you personally are safe in your car, but are your other motorists safe beside you? I would be fearful seeing say a Porsche or Subaru beside me at speed passing me out (which are build and engineered to be driven faster than a family car), but a FIAT Punto or Hyundai Atoz or Nissan Micra doing same?

Perhaps in that case, the problem is not speeding but scary looking cars.

Ham'nd'egger

Stark wrote:

Perhaps in that case, the problem is not speeding but scary looking cars.

Perhaps I just need blinkers

Chris_533976

One thing that annoys me is when a HQDC road is built to 120kmh, with a 100kmh speed limit. Then they catch people doing 110kmh and fine them. Thats silly. Sure, it is the law and we must obey it, but it is a bit crazy.

So theres a statutary law gone in to update parts of the N25 to 120kmh. In my opinion, with the speed limit currently at 100kmh, it is unfair to book someone for 110kmh, even though the police have the perfect right to do so.

Skyhater

jimbling wrote:

no one should ever get a jail sentence for speeding*. The punishment just does not fit the crime.


*Speeding is different from a total and utter disregard for the safety of others etc etc etc. But if that is the case, you are probably breaking numerous other laws anyway.

I disagree..... If somebody is doing over 120Km/h in a highly populated residential area (which often happens) it is "total and utter disregard for the safety of others"....... He/She deserves Jail!!!!!

However i personally wouldn't introduce Jail as the deterrent (not enough spaces at the moment)...... ban for Life and Impounding of Car would be my punishment for people breaking the speed limit by say 75%

Of course, again i say we need realistic speed limits to back this law up....
I'd change Motorways to 130Km/hr (100km/hr in Bad driving conditions as in France).... HQDC's to 110-120Km/hr...... Some single Carriageway roads to 110km/hr....... Complete Review of all Roads in Ireland by a single body (not decide by local co co's)

jimbling

The problem with introducing common sense speed limits is that you need people with common sense driving behind the wheel.

people are such idiots when it comes to driving. That's why speed limits have to be put in place for worst case scenarios.

jimbling

Hamndegger wrote:

I would be fearful seeing say a Porsche or Subaru beside me at speed passing me out (which are build and engineered to be driven faster than a family car), but a FIAT Punto or Hyundai Atoz or Nissan Micra doing same?

??? Are you trying to say you are more fearful seeing a porche pass you out than seeing a punto?

If that is the case, you are a seriously strange individual.

Chris_533976

Skyhater wrote:

However i personally wouldn't introduce Jail as the deterrent (not enough spaces at the moment)...... ban for Life and Impounding of Car would be my punishment for people breaking the speed limit by say 75%

Ban for several years and force them to watch their car being crushed

Would solve the problem of plenty of boy racers etc.... them seeing their car crushed would teach them more than a fine ever would.

Stark

SkyHater wrote:

Of course, again i say we need realistic speed limits to back this law up....
I'd change Motorways to 130Km/hr (100km/hr in Bad driving conditions as in France).... HQDC's to 110-120Km/hr...... Some single Carriageway roads to 110km/hr....... Complete Review of all Roads in Ireland by a single body (not decide by local co co's)

Yes that's what I was thinking. Whether the penalties are harsh or not depends on how well Switzerland review their speed limits. If all the 50kph zones were built-up residential areas, then yes, someone would deserve to be severely punished for doing 86kph. If they had areas like in Ireland though, with 50kph zones popping up at random while you're driving on an N-road between towns or on dual carriageways, then it would be a different story.

Chris_533976 wrote:

Would solve the problem of plenty of boy racers etc.... them seeing their car crushed would teach them more than a fine ever would.

Make sure the sound system isn't salvageable :P

Ham'nd'egger

jimbling wrote:

??? Are you trying to say you are more fearful seeing a porche pass you out than seeing a punto?

If that is the case, you are a seriously strange individual.

It is not an issue with the actual fact that somebody is passing me out (I hold my 120 and let them take the fines), it is the simple fact that a lot of vehicles are not adept at holding speeds safely in comparison to other vehicles. If these people want to chance their arm, let them by all means but I would prefer it that I don't feel vunerable from their carelesness. Had I had have said the same about a longwheel van or a cube lorry, you would see the point easier. It is the matter of these cars not being as able that is the point.

Skyhater

Chris_533976 wrote:

Ban for several years and force them to watch their car being crushed
Would solve the problem of plenty of boy racers etc.... them seeing their car crushed would teach them more than a fine ever would.

Yea.... I was actually thinking of selling the car and making a little bit of €€€€ for the exchequer (they could spend it on better signage, etc)....... But crushing is a good idea for Boy Racers... Like It

jimbling

Hamndegger wrote:

It is not an issue with the actual fact that somebody is passing me out (I hold my 120 and let them take the fines), it is the simple fact that a lot of vehicles are not adept at holding speeds safely in comparison to other vehicles. If these people want to chance their arm, let them by all means but I would prefer it that I don't feel vunerable from their carelesness. Had I had have said the same about a longwheel van or a cube lorry, you would see the point easier. It is the matter of these cars not being as able that is the point.

okay, read my response. your post seemed to say that you were more fearful of the car that could handle the speed. i.e. the porche
obviously that is not what you meant. the above makes perfect sense. It often amazes me how people dont see the difference between a punto doing 140 and a porche doing 140.

Del2005

jimbling wrote:

okay, read my response. your post seemed to say that you were more fearful of the car that could handle the speed. i.e. the porche
obviously that is not what you meant. the above makes perfect sense. It often amazes me how people dont see the difference between a punto doing 140 and a porche doing 140.

Isn't that why they put the HUGE spoiler, FAT alloys and body kit on to make it handle speeds better?

As said above if the limits where set correctly it'd be fine to do that, but have 60km limits on DC and 80km on SC is a bit silly

cold_filter

jimbling wrote:

okay, read my response. your post seemed to say that you were more fearful of the car that could handle the speed. i.e. the porche
obviously that is not what you meant. the above makes perfect sense. It often amazes me how people dont see the difference between a punto doing 140 and a porche doing 140.

I had a punto back in the day i got it up to 100kph it felt like it was about to fall apart, my next car was a fiat brava still 1.2, that could do about 130kph before feeling like it was going to take off.
Opel astra as soon as it hits 110kph it feels like its going to take off.

Have a new vectra 1.8 got it to 120kph felt like i was going 50kph very worrying....

lostexpectation

did i read in the times other day that before 2003 only 4% of drivers were tested for alcohol? while in some countries it was 35% and above?

I thought even without random testing it gotta be more then 4%, what have the guards been doing their time previously?

cyclopath2001

It's quite clear to me by the number of infractions committed by drivers of expensive cars, that fines are considered an occasional extra cost/nuisance while driving.

Finland sets the fine according to the means of the driver. See this story here on the BBC

A director of the Finnish telecommunications giant, Nokia, has received what is believed to be the most expensive speeding ticket ever.

Anssi Vanjoki, 44, has been ordered to pay a fine of 116,000 euros ($103,600) after being caught breaking the speed limit on his Harley Davidson motorbike in the capital, Helsinki, in October last year.

Harley Davidson motorbike
Mr Vanjoki is a Harley Davidson enthusiast
Police say he was driving at 75 km/h (47 mph) in a 50km/h (31 mph) zone.

SeanW

cyclopath2001 wrote:

It may be safe for the driver, but what if a pedestrian or cyclists makes a mistake? Your extra speed could make the difference between life & death as it will increase the severity of injury.

Please, obey the law and leave a safety margin for others.

Perhaps I should have phrased that better. I personally tend to stick to the speed limits but I think it's safe to break the speed limits by a small amount in some cases.

Like a straight, wide open country road (80km limit) with nothing on it, with an alert driver on a dry day, someone doing 85-90 isn't going to create any kind of hazard, and indeed, if you just stick religiously to the speed limits all the time on any of the 80km/h main roads around where I live, as I tend to do, you will be overtaken, and I vaguely remember one extreme case of being overtaken by a large stream of traffic while straddling an 80k limit on open road. It would have actually been safer that time to 'go with the flow.'

The speed limits while somewhat conservative, do tend to be reasonaly accurate IMO so anything over the speed plus 15k does create a danger in virtually all cases, danger of losing control, not being able to react to something in time. That's why I think there should a sliding scale of more serious penalities for this kind of thing and indeed jail for someone breaking the speed limits by a crazy level.

Supercell

lostexpectation wrote:

did i read in the times other day that before 2003 only 4% of drivers were tested for alcohol? while in some countries it was 35% and above?

I thought even without random testing it gotta be more then 4%, what have the guards been doing their time previously?

Personally I think the Irish drink drivers are mostly repeat offenders, and often an older driver.
Random testing is as a result going to yield a small overall percentage.
What would be more is effective is the Gardai targeting the repeat offenders that think its grand to drive home after a night in the pub downing Guinness and Whiskeys. Just wait for closing hour and test everyone that's behind the wheel of a car passing by, hopefully that's what they are doing.

fricatus

SeanW wrote:

...if you just stick religiously to the speed limits all the time on any of the 80km/h main roads around where I live, as I tend to do, you will be overtaken...

OVERTAKEN???!!! OMG that's the worst thing EVERRRR!!!

OK, yeah, as someone with a certain petrol content in my veins, I do understand, and you're absolutely right about "going with the flow" being safer. However, it's simply not possible, as things stand, to vary speed limits according to all the factors such as type and condition of car, competence of driver, friction coefficient and camber of the road, visibility, etc.

There is some talk of varying speed limits on the motorways according to conditions, and that's a terrific idea.

For now though, "one-size-fits-all" speed limits are the best, indeed only solution we have, and there is already some leeway given, such as by an individual Garda or judge. The limits have to be conservative, because there is a built-in margin allowed (even though it's not overtly stated).

cyclopath2001

SeanW wrote:

Perhaps I should have phrased that better. I personally tend to stick to the speed limits but I think it's safe to break the speed limits by a small amount in some cases.

That sounds reasonable, but it's the thin end of the wedge.