Interesting KK hand - thoughts?

BigCityBanker

Ive scalped this from elsewhere but I think it is a very interesting hand and worthy of discussion on here.

$2/$4, 6 Max, Villian is 20/14

Hero $773 (UTG)
Villian $Covers (Button)

Hero dealt KK and raises to $14utg after 1 limper Button makes it $62 to go, Hero repops it to $150 and the button calls, we are now HU. (Pot$320)

Flop J 10 3r

Hero leads for 225 and button shoves...

Hero?

sikes

pretty standard call given the price.

Mr.Plough

meh, pretty dirty.


i call anyway

El Stuntman

must call, if he runs into AA or JJ then so be it

bet sizing seems off in this hand or is it just me?

fuzzbox

I think you should pass.

You have defined your hand pretty well, and your opponent doesnt care.
You beat QQ and thats pretty much it, and that hand usually doesnt go as apesh1t here.

ianmc38

I couldnt fold here.

BigCityBanker

ianmc38 wrote:

I couldnt fold here.

either could I - im not good enough to fold here.

Fuzz makes a good point, our hand is pretty well defined - he is hardly picking this spot to bluff us? Also, how often do you expect QQ to be played like this?

ZZR1100

fuzzbox wrote:

I think you should pass.

You have defined your hand pretty well, and your opponent doesnt care.
You beat QQ and thats pretty much it, and that hand usually doesnt go as apesh1t here.

if he shoved pre flop u would call so why stop now when your getting 2/1

sikes

BigCityBanker wrote:

either could I - im not good enough to fold here.

Fuzz makes a good point, our hand is pretty well defined - he is hardly picking this spot to bluff us? Also, how often do you expect QQ to be played like this?

we need more info on villain, the more i think about it the more we should fold. I wish i hadnt posted in the first thread I saw its too early to be thinking.

sikes

ZZR1100 wrote:

if he shoved pre flop u would call so why stop now when your getting 2/1

i wouldnt call preflop if he shoved, a players 5-bet is generally AA-KK.

phantom_lord

if he shoved pre flop u would call so why stop now when your getting 2/1

cause villain is pretty sure he has us crushed. He never expects us to fold here. iwoudln't feel great about calling a shove pf either, esp this deep.

fuzzbox

ZZR1100 wrote:

if he shoved pre flop u would call so why stop now when your getting 2/1

I never said I would call preflop either.

And to break even on a 2:1 shot, villain needs to be firing with a worse hand 33% of the time.

Do you really think he calls a 4-bet preflop and then shoves on this flop with a worse hand 33% of the time?

I dont.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

I demand that the bad post police hunt you down and string you up for that. Disgraceful. I used to think you were a good poster.

i realised i wasnt fully awake so I rolled over and went back to sleep, holidays are great, im going to miss college so much.

Fuzzbox is right, I dont think he plays QQ like this, also we prob have the hand at the bottom of our 4bet range UTG

Macspower

your hand is clearly defined as AA or KK. He needs to be able to beat AA or KK here to shove...Just my opinion....

But thats after thinking about it for a few mins. If it's live at the time with the timer ticking and KK sitting in front of me........i'd probably call and say after he shows me AA... " I should have folded"

Mac

El Stuntman

so what happened BCB?

I'm in the 'goes broke with overpairs a lot' club so interested to see what you did and why?

BigCityBanker

As I said in the opening - I scalped it from elsewhere, here to be exact

If this is online I call before I realise what ive done or why i should not have called.

If it was live in the SE I would be confident that I could finally find a fold EDIT: Unless its against JBravado who would be sitting there with an overplayed KQ

El Stuntman

BigCityBanker wrote:

If this is online I call before I realise what ive done or why i should not have called.

If it was live in the SE I would be confident that he has T3o and I could finally find a fold

FYP

the online answer is the same as for me tho' :mad:

valor

Fuzz is right this is a fold but I dunno if i would make it

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Goodluck2me

do we ever see KQ/89/Bluff here. he knows you know etc...?

padser

I had a big long post written about how the Villian must have AA when I realised that becuase of the final pre flop raise by the Hero being small he may not have.

Hero raised to 3.5 times BB and Villian re raised to just over 15 times. So he trippled the standard raise. His range for doing this includes AA - QQ certainly AK and possilby AQ and JJ or even 10 10 depending on how aggressive he is.

When Hero re raised he defined his hand as AA or KK or the re raise left Villian needing to pay only $88 into pot of $208. With the hero's range so tightly defined, getting 2-1 on his money and with position this is a definite call.

Hero further defines his hand by underbetting the pot indicating he probably isnt really happy with his hand.

Villian now has a choice, there is 540 in the pot and Hero has 400 behind him. If he re raises Hero will have to call 400 for a pot of 760. So he knows hero is going to call.

Villian has to know that giving almost 2-1 to the Hero, so the Hero will call and he must have either AA or KK. So I can't see the Villian being behind either of those hands.

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote:

do we ever see KQ/89/Bluff here. he knows you know etc...?

nope.

Shadowless

If we're folding to a shove (or at least we think we should fold to one) should we check the flop?

Goodluck2me

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

Live, I would be chatting him up for five minutes before I made a decision.

judging by flushdraws thread, it would hardly take you 5 mins to chat anyone up...

Goodluck2me

phantom_lord wrote:

nope.

so he HAS to have TT+/AK given this we are obv behind.
AA/JJ/TT beat us, we Beat QQ/AK. so => Ez fold?
Although when he calls the last bet why wouldnt he raise again with AA? with so much out there and so much more money to go in, surely another raise is the optimal line.
So we are losing to JJ or TT and we Beat QQ/AK, when AK hardly shoves. (his stats say he his tight). so it must be a fold. it could also be a chop chop.

fuzzbox

goodluck2me wrote:

so he HAS to have TT+/AK given this we are obv behind.
AA/JJ/TT beat us, we Beat QQ/AK. so => Ez fold?
Although when he calls the last bet why wouldnt he raise again with AA? with so much out there and so much more money to go in, surely another raise is the optimal line.
So we are losing to JJ or TT and we Beat QQ/AK, when AK hardly shoves. (his stats say he his tight). so it must be a fold. it could also be a chop chop.

Nobody has AK here.

Shadowless

fuzzbox wrote:

Nobody has AK here.

On a side note, considering that we are behind his range, would shoving AK in this spot have a positive G-Buck expectation?

I'm still trying to get my head around that whole idea.

fuzzbox

Shadowless wrote:

On a side note, considering that we are behind his range, would shoving AK in this spot have a positive G-Buck expectation?

I'm still trying to get my head around that whole idea.

No way - his range is WAY too strong.

Hell - everybody wants to call with KK here.
So if heros range is TT+/AK (fair enough, but its probably even tighter than that and stands at QQ+/AK, and possibly even tighter).
If you shove with AK, then the only hand you can get him to fold is QQ. So it sux.

Ste05

I think this is the kind of fold that currently I'm not making but with enough time to think about it I'd like to be able to make it, although with 10 or 20 seconds I can't see me doing it. Thinking about it AA, JJ or 1010 make up a huge % of his range.

But obviously his original Pre-Flop raise amount is shocking $14 after a limper is pretty bad and then his re-raise completely defines his hand yet our friend is still willing to play a massive pot.

BigCityBanker

Fuzz,

Im curious on your line if you were the villian in this hand?

If you are in the villians seat what hands are you shoving over the top with on that flop? Its a pretty dry board if you have AA or if you have flopped a set. Why shove? Why not call and ask hero to commit more on the turn? Or is this bad play? Or do you expect the majority of players to commit on the flop cos they have an overpair to the board and appear to be getting a nice price?

Shadowless

fuzzbox wrote:

No way - his range is WAY too strong.

Hell - everybody wants to call with KK here.
So if heros range is TT+/AK (fair enough, but its probably even tighter than that and stands at QQ+/AK, and possibly even tighter).
If you shove with AK, then the only hand you can get him to fold is QQ. So it sux.

Sorry I don't think I'm following.
Hero's and Villan's swapping all over the place.

Let's say we are the Button in this hand and our range is TT+/AK
For the sake of argument we know our opponent has KK.

The way I understood the G-Buck thing was that it's a mistake for opponent to call our shove against our range.
Therefore we should be pushing even with the hands in our range he does beat.
Positive G-Buck expectation.

It doesn't seem logical to me though that we'd push with a worse hand if we reckon he'll call.
Does this not come into it if we think he'll call?
Am I totally misunderstanding the whole concept?

Sorry if I'm going off on a tangeant...

padser

Considering he is giving you 2-1 on your money to call him, and he knows your on either AA or KK................

He can not be behind either of those two hands.

I think ppl are overlooking the crucial point here that he

a) Must have narrowed Hero down to AA or KK

b) Must be pretty confident that giving 2-1 to AA or KK on a board like this is going to result in a call.

Once again, he doesnt have a hand (99% of the time) that is behind AA or KK

Goodluck2me

padser wrote:

b) Must be pretty confident that giving 2-1 to AA or KK on a board like this is going to result in a call.

Once again, he doesnt have a hand (99% of the time) that is behind AA or KK

he knows you know that...double bluff i say call!

Ste05

padser wrote:

He can not be behind either of those two hands.

He can if he thinks we could fold either of those.

phantom_lord

Ste05 wrote:

He can if he thinks we could fold either of those.

trying to get anyone to fold aa/kk here is suicide!

Ste05

Indeed it is, but that doesn't mean it never happens, there's many Kamikaze players out there.

BTW, I still think this is a fold, as I don't think this kind of thing happens all that often. If we're ahead, it's just an idiot and not someone trying to get us to fold AA or KK...

MacStacked

Check the flop. He calls with nothing you are ahead of.

Fold now.

padser

Ste05 wrote:

He can if he thinks we could fold either of those.

He thinks your a pretty good player if he thinks you will fold on that board, with those odds.

Ste05

Or just a weak tight nit...

strewelpeter

Ste05 wrote:

Or just a weak tight nit...

If you don't have any good info what percentage do you ascribe to the assumption that he is a nit that doesn't have you beaten ?