Problem with LandLord/Head Tenant

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hey all.

I'll keep this as short and simple as possible.

I'm sharing a house with three other people (I'm a student) - I'll name them Pat, Laura and Declan.
Pat is the guy in charge, so my folks pay my rent and bills into his account. He does not own the house however, but instead the Landlady takes the monry out of his account.

Anyways, Pat gave me four weeks notice tonight. The problems he listed are silly and petty, but I'd be moving out in 5 or six weeks anyways. However, my final year exam is on the 16th May and he wants me out by 15th.

Now, as well as being verbally abusive towards me, he wouldn't even consider letting me stay until the 19th so my folks can help me move my stuff (I live down the country and some of it is very bulky).

I'm wondering what rights I have? I'm there since September 2006, so will be renting here for 8 months by the end of April.

Also, he has said that if I don't clean the entire house before I leave, he will keep my deposit. AND that I must pay the full May rent, even though I am only there for two weeks. If I do not pay the full amount, he will keep my deposit.

Any help or advice would be great everyone, cheers!

CJ

MLM

Your best bet would be to contact threshold. http://www.threshold.ie/ Asking for a full months rent for ony two weeks is way out of line. If you've been in the place for longer than 6 months and you have signed some sort of lease you could be legally entitled to stay for up to 4 years, though don't quote me on this. Also what is the situation with Laura and Declan, seeing as you mentioned them? Are they being evicted too? You should definately get on to Threshold and explain your situation.

Jimmy Bottlehead

MLM wrote:

Your best bet would be to contact threshold. http://www.threshold.ie/ Asking for a full months rent for ony two weeks is way out of line. If you've been in the place for longer than 6 months and you have signed some sort of lease you could be legally entitled to stay for up to 4 years, though don't quote me on this. Also what is the situation with Laura and Declan, seeing as you mentioned them? Are they being evicted too? You should definately get on to Threshold and explain your situation.

Problem is, there's no written lease... so I'm not sure where I stand legally on that. However, all bill and rent payments were by cheque so there's records. I'll gibe Threshold a call tomorrow and explain it to them.

With regards to the other two occupants:

No they're not getting evicted. Just me, and it's over silly things and things I can't help. For example, the toliet not taking everything away due to a weak flush (apologies if thats crude!), or leaving a window open so the floor can dry after being mopped (Pat gave out before as the floor was wet after cleaning :rolleyes: )

I'm very friendly with Laura; as a matter of fact, Pat was horrible to her the last two months, very abusive and she considered moving out. I was there for her, listened to her and was a friend to her.
Declan has a habit of coming in late at night and making lots of noise. Apparently before I arrived, Pat considered kicking Declan out.

Neither of them said a word when Pat confronted me this evening, and went along with what he said. I think it's because they're worried he'll turn on them, but it hurt that Laura just stood back and let me have it.

ctc_celtic

cant really help you on the legal side, but i'd go to the landlady. remember this Pat fella doesn't own the house and its the landlady that does, have you signed a lease? do you have it? just because the money is coming out of his account, doesn't mean that he is in charge.
the point of paying rent for after you move is absurd and i wouldn't even entertain him on that one.

i had a problem when i was at college and approached one of the lectures in the law department (didn't know him, wasn't my section of college) but try and find a friendly looking lecturer, and ask for advice. In my situation, he wrote a letter to my boss (from me, but he wrote) and that professional touch was enough to scare my boss into accepting my terms.

also does your college have a student union, they could help, thats what there meant to be there for.

MLM

This Pat guy sounds like a bully. Plain and simple. Don't give him an inch. A toilet with a weak flush could be considered a health hazard and would need to be repaired by the landlady. That type of problem is not a tenants responsibility.

Bluetonic

CJ Marren wrote:

Pat is the guy in charge, so my folks pay my rent and bills into his account.

First things first. Cancel all payments into his account until the issue is resolved.

Agent J

Bluetonic wrote:

First things first. Cancel all payments into his account until the issue is resolved.

That's the last thing that should be done. You need to keep paying things as you would normally or else you will give them an actual reason to do something. Are you completelt up to date on all rent and all bills? Have you ever had a problem with it?

1)Can you cirumvent the tenant and go to the landlord?
(I would also suggest you handle it yourself and not have your parents or someone else do so)

2)You cannot be made pay rent for a period of time you will not be there due to them giving you notice. End of story.

3)After 6 months they must have a reson to kick you out. Check out the prtb and thresold for info on that.

4)Apart from leaving your room spotless and whatever else you ahve with you gone you have no obligcation to have the "whole" house spotless

5)If all else fails then simply say "I'm staying till the end of may. Bring your dispute to the PTRB and we'll see what they say"

He cannot tell you he wont do that. They are a goverment agency which legally the landlord must have been registered with. If they havent been registered then the cost of the fine is probably more than the return of the deposit.

Best of luck.

Calina

Call Threshold. By the sounds of things, you are technically a licensee and not a signatory to the lease on the property if there is one. The legal provisions are different AFAIK.

BC

Okay, its irrelevant that you have no lease, the residential tenancy act still applies.

- The notice must be in writing. If you haven't got it in writing then it doesn't apply and they can't back date it!

- They must give you 35 days notice as you have been living there more than 6 months

- They can't withhold your deposit for not cleaning. The only grounds for withholding your deposit are if you owe rent or if there is damage beyond normal wear and tear.

Check out these:
www.prtb.ie
www.threshold.ie

kmick

Option 1
Move out now and take them to the small claims court if they dont give you your deposit back. Tell him you will personally sue him as he is the one screwing you over. Keep a record of all payments etc and all incidents.

Option 2
Tell this guy he is bullying you and if he does not back off you will knock his block off.

Option 3
Ring the landlady - outline the situation -discuss- if its no better revert to option 1 or 2

antoinolachtnai

What does the landlady have to do with this?

As Calina says, the OP sounds to me like a licencee. His arrangement sounds like a licence, not a tenancy. He has no rights as a tenant that I can see (though I could be wrong).

Small claims court? Maybe, but this might not work because the tenant is not a professional landlord.

I would advise you not threaten physical violence.

There are really no fixed criteria for a licensor returning the deposit. If he refuses to pay it back you're going to have a tough time recovering it.

I would say that you should try to put this mess behind you as quickly as possible and concentrate on your exams. One option would be to find alternative accommodation straightaway and not to pay any more money to this guy.

Threshold are worth calling.

Zambia

kmick wrote:

Option 1
Move out now and take them to the small claims court if they dont give you your deposit back. Tell him you will personally sue him as he is the one screwing you over. Keep a record of all payments etc and all incidents.

Option 2
Tell this guy he is bullying you and if he does not back off you will knock his block off.

Option 3
Ring the landlady - outline the situation -discuss- if its no better revert to option 1 or 2

Disregard option 2 unless your in school.

bullrunner

i would definitely contact the landlord and explain the situation. They may have had problems with this guy b4 and are looking for an excuse to get rid of him, or may not be aware that there is a problem with him at all. Try to get the other people in the house to back you up on this (have they said to you that they dont agree with you getting evicted?)

Definitely talk to either /both PRTB and treshold about the situation. Discuss lodging the rent for the month of may with them until the situation is sorted out. That way if you do get evicted they will not pay the full months rent to the landlord ...but if you do stay they will then pay it.


In any case it may not be worth your while staying in the house as this guy may just make your life a misery during your exams (which you dont need)...i would (if i were you) try to stay with a friend for the couple of weeks that your exams are going on

good luck though

Jimmy Bottlehead

Ok, rang Threshold... not great news... I'm a licensee, so I have damn all rights to be honest.

If Pat wanted to, he could give me 24 hours notice to get out (I'm guessing he just didn't realise!). So I'm lucky to get 28 days, in a way.

Anyhoo, I DID find out that I indeed cannot be charged rent for the time after I've left, so I can just pay half a months rent, or else live there 'til the end of the month.

And he cannot take my deposit for anything other than damage or unpaid bills. Now, quick question - Pat refused to get a TV licence for a few years now apparently, but has decided to get one in the last two weeks.

Since I'm moving out, am I still obliged to pay for something I won't use and never really have (I never use the TV, just watch stuff on the net)??

Many many thanks for all the advice everyone, means a lot. The guy is such a prick, he really is, but it's probably a blessing in disguise as I'm not that happy here anyways.

Agent J

I believe the expression i would use if he tried to charge me for a year of a TV licence.

"Bite me"

I have lived in rented accomadation for a long time and have been the point man in the house on most things.

You only have to pay for whatever time you are there.

If he goes out and buys a tv licence dated today and you are only there for a month then you are only liable for the month you are there.

So what 4 people in the house?

Tv licence is what? 162?

162/4 = 40.5 euro per person per year

40.5/12 = 3.36euro per person per month.

Also i am not sure about this licenee business, i bow to threshold but i dont buy it. It doesnt make sense that he can only give 24 hours. Minium terms laid down in the act are 28 days.

If he gets ratty just say that you'll take him to the PRTB about it.

antoinolachtnai

The problem here is how you are going to minimise your losses. He can come up with any excuse to not give you back your deposit, or he might not bother. You can threaten all you like but there's no real point in taking this any further.

Just for general background, there is a document on the prtb site about licencees: http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Licensees.pdf (Basically it says that licencees have no rights or next to no rights.)

Jimmy Bottlehead

antoinolachtnai wrote:

The problem here is how you are going to minimise your losses. He can come up with any excuse to not give you back your deposit, or he might not bother. You can threaten all you like but there's no real point in taking this any further.

Just for general background, there is a document on the prtb site about licencees: http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Licensees.pdf (Basically it says that licencees have no rights or next to no rights.)

Surely the small claims court would enforce it though - if the apprioprate rent was paid and no damage has been caused, then I am entitled to it back??

antoinolachtnai

Nope, I'm afraid not, being a landlord isn't this guy's business. The Small Claims procedure is for consumer claims against businesses.

See

https://smallclaims.courts.ie/esmallclaims/claim/Main?page=home&Language=English

The small claims procedure is limited to:

1. a claim in respect of goods or services bought for private use from someone selling them in the course of a business (consumer claim).

Also see http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/0/A48FAC9688FA96FF802571F8002D6A01?OpenDocument#Q14__Why_is_Key_Money_included_in_the_Claim_Type_and_Claim_Goods_drop_down_list_when_the_Small_Claims_Guidelines_Screen_directs_me_to_the_website_of_the_Private_Tenancies_Residential_Board_

which arguably contradicts this view, but seems not to be relevant because it refers to the situation where the landlord is the licensor.

Certainly though, you are entitled to it back. If you can't use the small claims procedure and you want to claim it back, you'll need to go to the district court. If he still refuses to pay you will need to pay the sheriff to go and get the money.

I would concentrate on the exams if I were you.

Victor

kmick wrote:

Option 2
Tell this guy he is bullying you and if he does not back off you will knock his block off.

Banned. Take a month off.

De Deraco

sounds strang to me that your a licencee, since you pay rent i would have considered that you are sub-letting from him and as such a tenant.

The_Conductor

De Deraco wrote:

sounds strang to me that your a licencee, since you pay rent i would have considered that you are sub-letting from him and as such a tenant.

You are a licensee if the landlord is resident in the house. Other than that you are a tenant and entitled to those rights normally ascribed to tenants. If in dispute you should contact the PRTB, who will explain your rights to you.

It sounds as though 'Pat' as you call him, is subletting the house either with/without the explicit agreement of the Landlord. The absence of a written agreement is irrelevant- you are still covered under the tenancies acts.

S.

GreeBo

smccarrick wrote:

You are a licensee if the landlord is resident in the house. Other than that you are a tenant and entitled to those rights normally ascribed to tenants. If in dispute you should contact the PRTB, who will explain your rights to you.

It sounds as though 'Pat' as you call him, is subletting the house either with/without the explicit agreement of the Landlord. The absence of a written agreement is irrelevant- you are still covered under the tenancies acts.

S.

But Pat isnt the Landlord right?
Just becuase he gives the money to the owner of the house doesnt make him a landlord?

antoinolachtnai

Well, I suppose it could be a grey area, but he definitely sounds like a licencee to me. There is no lease, his arrangement is with a person who lives in the house, and he is sharing many facilities in the house with Pat. The dispute does not have the characteristics of a landlord-tenant dispute either. It sounds more like a clash of personalities.

I don't think the PRTB is going to want to get involved in what is essentailly a domestic dispute. They aren't going to force Pat to live with the OP if he doesn't want to live there. That just isn't a workable resolution, even if it might seem fair.

Even if the PRTB did get involved you would probably lose on most counts, without the support of the other people in the house.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Well I'm moving out, but that was going to happen anyways - Pat is simply not a good person to live with at all, and I'm restraining my personal feelings with that. He's had disputes with everybody else in the house, and is a bully, plain and simple.

What bugs me is that he's not willing to let me stay until the weekend after my exams so I can clear my stuff out. But I and my girlfriend (she knows what Pat is like) have explained to my folks and they are in full agreeance with me moving out.

By the way, Threshold did indeed tell me I was a licensee, and that I have few if any legal rights. The Tenancy Act does not apply to my situation.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Ok, update:

Found a new house, rent is €5 cheaper (wahey! lol) and house is gorgeous, far far nicer than where I am now. I'm moving in Sunday, so because I'm leaving before May, I am not paying rent for May at all - so yay for that.

Problem is Pat still demanding the house be cleaned before a deposit is returned... My folks have talked to him and have found him reasonable and calm (myself and my girlfriend have seen him as he actually is, severe anger issues and unable to talk without bully tactics. Also he hinted at physical violence towards me)

Laura has backed up Pat and claimed all sorts of things - that I'm horrible around the house, I don't get on with anyone, etc. Now my parents aren't sure who is right, despite me and my girlfriend telling them the truth. (and no, I'm not bending the truth.)

Anyways, do I legally have to tidy house (apart from my room) in order to get deposit back? Because it's my parents money, I WILL if I must, but I'm worried he'll claim the house isn't cleaned to standard and withhold it again.

ctc_celtic

yes you will need to clean your room and it would be no harm to give the rest of the house a once over, nothing major, run with the hover and tidy up.

if you parents have been involved could you ask them to be there for when Pat inspects the house, if he's shown a different attitude to them, he will be more inclined to pay up with them there. i know its may seem childish having to ask your parents to come over, but from what i've read, he wont give the deposit back with only you to argue with.

first, set a time and day for the inspection, make sure your parents can come and spend a few hours cleaning beforehand.

K_P

I agree. Clean your own room obviously and just general stuff with the rest of the house. I wouldn't exactly suggest getting down on your hands and knees scrubbing floors.

It also mightn't be a bad idea to take a few photos of your room before you leave just in case Pat disputes the fact that you tidied it up. He sounds like an absolute **** so I wouldn't put it past him. And whatever you do, make sure you get your money back. I've had my fair share of run-ins with landlords and find threatening the Small Claims Court usually makes them pay up.

Best of luck with it all.

Jimmy Bottlehead

K_P wrote:

I agree. Clean your own room obviously and just general stuff with the rest of the house. I wouldn't exactly suggest getting down on your hands and knees scrubbing floors.

It also mightn't be a bad idea to take a few photos of your room before you leave just in case Pat disputes the fact that you tidied it up. He sounds like an absolute **** so I wouldn't put it past him. And whatever you do, make sure you get your money back. I've had my fair share of run-ins with landlords and find threatening the Small Claims Court usually makes them pay up.

Best of luck with it all.

Yeah, I'm going to clean up the general house before I go and take photos right after, including my room.
My dad offered to come up (from Sligo) and check the house after I cleaned it in order to make sure he got the deposit back, but Pat has said that neither my parents or my girlfriend can come into the house as "he doesn't want strangers in HIS house".
I'm worried that if I do tidy up, he'll keep it anyways and claim the cleaning isn't u to standard - hence the pictures.

He's also said that Dad can take him to the Small Claims Court. Quick question... does anyone know what my chances would be of getting the money back? Neither Threshold or the Small Claims Court could tell me (understandable, of course).

The_Conductor

Have your father collect you- help with moving your things etc- Pat can hardly object to a family member helping you to move. Can you clarify- is it his house, is he a member of the family who own the house- by what manner or means does Pat assume ownership of the house? He is simply renting the property and subletting a portion thereof to you.

Have you claimed rent-relief on the rent you paid already? If not you are entitled to 20% relief on the first 1800 of rent paid (it comes to Euro 360). Mention this to Pat, and advise that you need an acknowledgement of receipt of same from him. The fact that Pat is subletting the property to you- does not mean you have no rights. Have you contacted the PRTB concerning the deposit at all?

Shane

Jimmy Bottlehead

smccarrick wrote:

Have your father collect you- help with moving your things etc- Pat can hardly object to a family member helping you to move.
Can you clarify- is it his house, is he a member of the family who own the house- by what manner or means does Pat assume ownership of the house?
He is simply renting the property and subletting a portion thereof to you.

Pat has already said he doesn't want my parents or my girlfriend in the house - he has said to my Dad he won't let them in.

He's renting the house, and is a head tenant. I am a licensee. He does not own the house.

smccarrick wrote:

Have you claimed rent-relief on the rent you paid already? If not you are entitled to 20% relief on the first 1800 of rent paid (it comes to Euro 360).
Mention this to Pat, and advise that you need an acknowledgement of receipt of same from him.
The fact that Pat is subletting the property to you- does not mean you have no rights. Have you contacted the PRTB concerning the deposit at all?

Shane

No I haven't claimed rent relief, I wasn't aware I was due it? Is this the case with all rented properties?

Because it's a tenant/licensee thing, the PRTB can't get involved. Threshold have said the Small Claims Court is the only way to get it back.

The_Conductor

CJ Marren wrote:

No I haven't claimed rent relief, I wasn't aware I was due it? Is this the case with all rented properties?

Yes, even under the rent-a-room scheme you are entitled to claim rent-relief (at the marginal rate on the first 1,800 of rent paid). If you are renting from 'Pat' he is supposed to be declaring the gross income to the Revenue Commissioners. If you are in fact renting from the owner of the house- they should be declaring the income. One way or the other- the rent that you pay, should be declared to the Revenue Commissioners and you are entitled to claim relief on it. If its not declared, someone is in trouble. You do not even need the RSI number of the landlord to claim this back. Contact the Revenue Commissioners and they will explain to you how to get your 360 from them......