30/60 Stud - Did I miss a bet?

Flipper

Ok, I'm going to try and bring some culture to the Poker forum. Stud hi is my worst mixed game and I'm going to play a lot more of it until I get comfortable. Did I mess this up on the final 2-3 streets?

7 Card Stud Limit, $30/$60)
Seat 4: VILLIAN ($3,290 in chips)
Seat 5: wkieran ($2,230 in chips)
VILLIAN: posts the ante $5
wkieran: posts the ante $5
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td]
VILLIAN: brings in for $15
wkieran: raises $15 to $30
VILLIAN: calls $15
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h] [7s]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td] [8c]
wkieran: bets $30
VILLIAN: calls $30
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h 7s] [Qs]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td 8c] [4h]
VILLIAN: bets $60
wkieran: calls $60
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h 7s Qs] [6s]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td 8c 4h] [2h]
VILLIAN: bets $60
wkieran: calls $60
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h 7s Qs 6s] [6h]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td 8c 4h 2h] [Jh]
VILLIAN: bets $60
wkieran: calls $60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
VILLIAN: shows [Qd 9c 8h 7s Qs 6s 6h] (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
wkieran: shows [Jc Jd Td 8c 4h 2h Jh] (three of a kind, Jacks)
wkieran collected $490 from pot

btw, I have no idea why I didn't raise on 5th

nicnicnic

Flipper wrote:

Ok, I'm going to try and bring some culture to the Poker forum. Stud hi is my worst mixed game and I'm going to play a lot more of it until I get comfortable. Did I mess this up on the final 2-3 streets?

7 Card Stud Limit, $30/$60)
Seat 4: VILLIAN ($3,290 in chips)
Seat 5: wkieran ($2,230 in chips)
VILLIAN: posts the ante $5
wkieran: posts the ante $5
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td]
VILLIAN: brings in for $15
wkieran: raises $15 to $30
VILLIAN: calls $15
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h] [7s]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td] [8c]
wkieran: bets $30
VILLIAN: calls $30
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h 7s] [Qs]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td 8c] [4h]
VILLIAN: bets $60
wkieran: calls $60
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h 7s Qs] [6s]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td 8c 4h] [2h]
VILLIAN: bets $60
wkieran: calls $60
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to VILLIAN [8h 7s Qs 6s] [6h]
Dealt to wkieran [Jc Jd Td 8c 4h 2h] [Jh]
VILLIAN: bets $60
wkieran: calls $60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
VILLIAN: shows [Qd 9c 8h 7s Qs 6s 6h] (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
wkieran: shows [Jc Jd Td 8c 4h 2h Jh] (three of a kind, Jacks)
wkieran collected $490 from pot

btw, I have no idea why I didn't raise on 5th

this game game will cost you you wont be playing it in three weeks, drop down levels straight away;)

Bandana boy

I think a raise on 5th street would/should have taken down the pot there
It looks like a bet for info and he got it that your weakish
i think you can value raise 7th street as well he will call with a lot of hands behind jjj

hotspur

I presume the two of you were playing HU so it's really hard to say how you should have played 5th street without knowing how he was playing. In the absence of knowing anything about him I'd say your play was fine on all streets apart from the river which was an auto reraise.

ianmc38

7th street is an easy value raise. The only slightly worrying hand would be rolled up 8s. Rest of the hand looks fine.

Ste05

Obviously if your not such a great Stud player you should probably move up...

I think this looks fine, except I'd definitely be raising 7th street for value in a heads up game, I think calling 5th and 6th is the way to go as he's suddenly become interested in the pot when he gets the Q, obviously he doesn't have to have it, but just so as to not spiral the pot out of control with just 1 pair and a couple of back door draws.

Bandana boy

Ste05 wrote:

Obviously if your not such a great Stud player you should probably move up...

I think this looks fine, except I'd definitely be raising 7th street for value in a heads up game, I think calling 5th and 6th is the way to go as he's suddenly become interested in the pot when he gets the Q, obviously he doesn't have to have it, but just so as to not spiral the pot out of control with just 1 pair and a couple of back door draws.

I dont play much stud anymore but as a rule we dont want to get to 7th street with JJ it is never ahead
With that in mind if we call 5th street with a pair and raise with a set or two pair then we become very obvious
I think a raise here he lays down his QQs there a poor hand and quite transparent
once we have not raised 5th street i think our opportunity to bluff is dead and we should consider a fold rather than a call 6th street is a fold we need a miracle of 7th street we get it we have to value raise

Captain Tom

dont mean to derail the thread but where did everybody learn so much about stud?is there books easily available or what?

hotspur

Bandana boy wrote:

I dont play much stud anymore but as a rule we dont want to get to 7th street with JJ it is never ahead
With that in mind if we call 5th street with a pair and raise with a set or two pair then we become very obvious
I think a raise here he lays down his QQs there a poor hand and quite transparent
once we have not raised 5th street i think our opportunity to bluff is dead and we should consider a fold rather than a call 6th street is a fold we need a miracle of 7th street we get it we have to value raise

Are you saying you think that playing HU the guy is gonna fold his QQ on 5th to a reraise? Not gonna happen, seriously, just not. And I don't see the bluffing opportunity on the board at all, that's a NL hold em player talking not a stud player, the idea of bluffing for no reason unrelated to a scary board is really bad. Playing HU JJ is ahead enough of the time going into 7th street that it's a call on 6th.

hotspur

Captain Tom wrote:

dont mean to derail the thread but where did everybody learn so much about stud?is there books easily available or what?

Well I'm 99% sure that 98% people here know nothing about it, but if you want to then a nice short intro to some solid play is Chip Reese's chapter in SuperSystem 1. After that Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players by Sklansky and co. And also the 2+2 section on stud, which is where this original post would have received the most accurate answers.

Flipper

I think it's not raising the river is where my issue with this hand is. He comes out betting when he catches Qs knowing I'm am already interested in the pot. How often will the Qs make a flush draw here? Is it ever a fold on 5th?

Flipper

Captain Tom wrote:

dont mean to derail the thread but where did everybody learn so much about stud?is there books easily available or what?

This is the best book I've read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/7-card-Stud-Complete-Course-Winning/dp/1580421377/ref=sr_1_3/203-3005175-7307958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176742092&sr=1-3

BobSloane

Yeah I think i'd probably raise on 5th. It should get you a free card anyway if you have no plans on folding. Think since you're still involved at the end you should definetly raise as you've hit the card you wanted. Overall I don't think you played the hand very well as villian surely thinks you dont have rolled up tens as you've played strong from the start(assume you'd slowplay that kind of hand) and can beat any other likely holding once his Q hits unless you have KK or AA in the hole. I can picture him shouting fcuksake!!! at the screen at showdown - especially when you don't raise!

BobSloane

Flipper wrote:

This is the best book I've read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/7-card-Stud-Complete-Course-Winning/dp/1580421377/ref=sr_1_3/203-3005175-7307958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176742092&sr=1-3

Have you read Chip Reeses section in Super System? Its pretty short but gives some excellent and fairly straightforward tips. I used to play it years ago with my friends and got back into it a bit in the last few weeks. Its an excellent game I reckons

hotspur

Flipper wrote:

How often will the Qs make a flush draw here? Is it ever a fold on 5th?

Well the important point about the possibility that the Qs made a 4 flush (beyond quantifying how often it will ,which isn't a calculation you would do in any other game would you?) is that he is incorrect to bet it into you if you have a pair of tens or better because a 4 flush on 5th is a dog - it makes a flush the same as a 4 flush in hold em on the flop (a bit better here cause 3 non spades extra seen), and the single Q overcard still makes him a slight dog. Even a 4 flush on 4th is a 47% dog to make a flush in stud.

Send it to the boys at 2+2 and see what they make of it.

Imposter

First we have nothing from you on how the game has been playing up to now. Without this info:
I think not raising on 5th is what fücked up any reasonable thought patterns one could have on this hand. On the first showing of a scare card he raises. You've got to raise back to get info here.

As played, the 6s on 6th street is a real scare card. Now you've got to worry about straight's and flushes (although not so much the flushes given the up card on 3rd) and also the fact that he may have a Q hidden.

Catching the J on the river is good for you but you can only raise here if you will lay it down to a reraise.

Warning: I've never played HU stud (other than down to 2 in a tournament so that hardly counts - as by that stage I had loads of info on my opponent) and never at this limit so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

bohsman

This is a bit like the time a well known degenerate put up a post on the betfair forum looking for advice on playing Jennifer Harman at her best game, stud 8o I think it was.

RoundTower

I think his most likely hand is 2 pair or 666 when he bets the river, and he probably calls a raise with it. However uyou risk losing a third bet if he has better so maybe there is no value in raising. I think you played it fine on the other streets and probably wouldn't raise 5th.

That said I don't know much about stud (just like most of the other posters) and never played 30 60 except when they first introduced HORSE on Stars. So I'd also say ask on 2+2 for the best advice.

Bandana boy

hotspur wrote:

Are you saying you think that playing HU the guy is gonna fold his QQ on 5th to a reraise? Not gonna happen, seriously, just not. And I don't see the bluffing opportunity on the board at all, that's a NL hold em player talking not a stud player, the idea of bluffing for no reason unrelated to a scary board is really bad. Playing HU JJ is ahead enough of the time going into 7th street that it's a call on 6th.

Of course how game has been playing up to this point has a lot to do with it if Flipper has been raising the bring in and betting 3 streets ecery hand then ignore
but I dont agree
calling with 1 pair and no real redraw on 5th to a re-raise after 3 streets of betting is losing stud play imo nothing suggest villain is a loser yet

then we have our JJ It is a horrible hand here and we should really give up
I dont like to give up so easy so i put in a raise to his bet to test his resolve we look pretty strong with the action to date and we make him fold most muck i believe

I do not want to be entering 7th street with JJ it is never ahead especially after the very scary 6th street card for our friend

dannydiamond

I'm not good enough at stud to comment on your play,but kieran their is surely a better place to get "comfortable" than 30/60!!!!:eek:

ocallagh

in 5 years time when we're all posting advanced stud strategy we'll look back at this thread and have a chuckle

hotspur

Bandana boy wrote:

but I dont agree calling with 1 pair and no real redraw on 5th to a re-raise after 3 streets of betting is losing stud play imo nothing suggest villain is a loser yet

Maybe this is the key, you have misread the HH - there was no reraise on 5th, the villain led out, the bets went up on 5th.

phantom_lord

ocallagh wrote:

in 5 years time when we're all posting advanced stud strategy we'll look back at this thread and have a chuckle

lol! i hope not!

Bandana boy

hotspur wrote:

Maybe this is the key, you have misread the HH - there was no reraise on 5th, the villain led out, the bets went up on 5th.

Maybe this is the key
I havent misread the HH i was responding to your suggestion that QQ never folds here I am suggesting that if QQ doesnt fold here to a re-raise then this is losing poker

Apolgies if this wasnt clear