Pre Flop Raising

BigCityBanker

Preflop raising - so what is the correct amount?

This is something I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about over the past number of weeks. I am led to post this thread as I have noticed differences across levels and networks.

Ok as a starting point when I was playing 25c/50c & 50c/1 on Tribecca my standard preflop raise was to hit the 4x button and to add on 1bb per limper.

When playing 1/2 on Tribecca I noticed that the 4x button was, by observation of the other players at that level, a bit too steep. Open raising to 10 seemed to scare away the customers, but 9 was totally acceptable - was this an inflection point caused by the psychological stigma of round numbers?

Ok so then I move to Bentfair Poker and they have this handy little "POT" button. Open raising for the pot at $2.50/$5 is $17.50, I have never seen anybody open raise for any more (other than last night when NH WP FU appeared to be on mega tilt - yummy). Had this been on the old Tribecca Network at lower levels then Id be open raising to $25. I posted a HH from Betfair a couple of months ago where I open raised to $27.50 and both HJ and KP told me that it was too much and that Pot was sufficient. I discussed this topic briefly before (we were locked at the time tho) with PillowFighter in the context of playing HU and he told me that the opening raise at HU should be the same as 6 max - 4 times the BB.

When im playing a tourney in town my minimum opening raise is 3.5xBB and I tend to add a little something for limpers if Im coming in from late postion. I note from another thread that HJ open raised from UTG for 2xBB which I consider to be far too small but when somebody like HJ does it then it makes me sit back and wonder even further on the topic.

In the past I was regularly guilty of raising different amounts depending on what cards I had and I have worked hard to eradicate this from my game - Its a bit like ppl thinking that if they overbet the pot with a river bluff they are less likely to be called. Now - back to the IO last week and one of the dealers told me that Sorrel Mizzi opening raise in level one was anywhere in the range of 125 to 250 - personally I dont like this much but im hardly well placed to comment on his play? I played the IPC in January and had Scott Byron sitting to my immediate left - one of the most difficult things I tried to do that day was to assign him a range of hands. His bet sizing was standard irrespective of what his cards were, he bet his draws and made hands alike - I was never any the wiser and I continually prayed that his hands would get to showdown and I would get the opportunity to gather some info. IanMc pointed out to me last week that Sklansky in his book with Ed Miller states that it is often good play to min-raise hands like A5 from the button - again curious?

So from the above ramblings I think you will see that im confused on this topic!!

What is the correct amount to raise preflop wether it be open raising or raising after limpers, be it cash or tourney?

ntlbell

For tournaments anyway, I like Phil gordon's thinking on this.

The size of his raises depend on his position and not his holdings.

e.g. he raises 2.5-3.5bb's in early position's and 4-5bb's in late position's

this makes it hard to put a range on your bet sizing.

You play a smaller pot when up front and bigger pots in position.

sikes

It really depends on how you view your opponents. My standard button open is raising to 3xBB. I dont want to discourage the blinds calling, becuase I have position and am generally better post flop. Stealing blinds when deep isnt as profitable as playing your button, especially when the blinds will call and "defend" their blinds with any two to a small raise.

OTB, when there is a limper to me, I might raise to 3x with suited connectors small-mid pocket pairs, just to bloat the pot, though I would usually raise by the amount of limpers + 3.

EP is very much different, becuase it depends on the players left to act. If i have to raise to 4x to cut the field out then I will do that with all my holdings.

I dont really see any mistakes with open raising sizes preflop, however the biggest mistakes are made with 3-betting, esp OOP. I would always raise more than the size of the pot to cut down on the implied odds given to the oppoenent.

This is all for 6-max cash.

For tournaments, there is other factors such as antes etc to consider.

Mr.Plough

as above, whether it be cash or a tourny, 3.5 bbs in ep and 4 or 5 +1 for each limper in lp.

with regard to hj raising 2xbigblinds im pretty sure his stack at the time meant 2x was the only raise which didnt commit him to the pot, as i dont see the point in it otherwise

sikes

first of all we you cant say that its the same for cash and tourney. when i refer to 6 max cash i am refering to 100+ BB poker, if you are thinking that your strategy cant change for when antes come in, when there are short stacks behind you, then you arent really thinking about the situation


Why do you raise small in ep and raise big in lp? there has to be some reason to it. i have never read it so i dont know what phil gordon talks about.

Flushdraw

I noticed when playing the EPM last year that Howard Lederer and Eric Siedel were open raising for 2.5BB regardless of position and antes. Not sure whether they changed their strategies due to the amateurish field and if they felt they could simply outplay their opponents post flop

58o

Flushdraw wrote:

I noticed when playing the EPM last year that Howard Lederer and Eric Siedel were open raising for 2.5BB regardless of position and antes. Not sure whether they changed their strategies due to the amateurish field and if they felt they could simply outplay their opponents post flop

Doesn't Daniel Negreaneau employ also employ a similar strategy (raising 2.5bb) regardless of position or holding? Also rarely 3 bets pre flop, as he feels his edge is post flop where he can comfortably outplay his opponents/get away from big hands when in trouble.

Mr.Plough

sikes wrote:

first of all we you cant say that its the same for cash and tourney. when i refer to 6 max cash i am refering to 100+ BB poker, if you are thinking that your strategy cant change for when antes come in, when there are short stacks behind you, then you arent really thinking about the situation

well i play few tournys so i usually adopt alot of my cash game play into it.

i should have mentioned that bet sizing will be varied according to stacks etc, but i thought that was obvious.

Why do you raise small in ep and raise big in lp? there has to be some reason to it. i have never read it so i dont know what phil gordon talks about.

simply because i dont like to play inflated pots oop.

sikes

Mr.Plough wrote:

simply because i dont like to play inflated pots oop.

I agree with that point, but we have to offset it against the prob that the small raise in ep will induce a calling spree and also our range in EP should be pretty tight anyway.

In late position, yeah we like to play big pots in position, but we have to offset that with profitablility of them calling a 3x raise and folding a 4x raise. For me I am raising in lp an awful lot, and when i am deep i dont want to discourage action, regardless of holding, so raising to 3bb and letting the blinds defend, is much more profitable than the times that they fold to my 4x riase and i pick up the blinds. Obvioulsy this changes as the stacks get shorter and the blinds become a greater % of our stack.

Imposter

Imo and from what i'm reading here: The size of your raise should always be the same with position and limpers (add 1BB per limper for example) the only factor that changes that.

Some people use 2.5BB's as their standard raise and some use 4BB's. This should decided based on how much you raise. If you raise a LOT (VPIP:25/PFR:20 - or more - for example) then 2.5BB's is probably enough. If you have stats like VPIP:15/PFR:10 then 4BB's is probably about right. You basically need to find the correct balance based on how much you raise and how much of a raise is still profitable for you. This can also change on a per table basis but it will mostly be the same.