Westport line down for a fortnight 16 April - 4 May

Yoda

Naturally I was planning to go to Dublin on 20 April and return on 1 May. :mad:

See http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=257

And another thing. "Departure times are advanced one half hour." Can't they use unambiguous language? "Departure times will be one half hour earlier than scheduled" would be user-friendlier.

Ham'nd'egger

Yoda wrote:

Naturally I was planning to go to Dublin on 20 April and return on 1 May. :mad:

See http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=257

And another thing. "Departure times are advanced one half hour." Can't they use unambiguous language? "Departure times will be one half hour earlier than scheduled" would be user-friendlier.

It's a pain in the arse but there is new electronic signalling that has to be tested etc and old signalling disconnected etc , and it can't be done on the line without it closing, sorry to say. In time, it will get you west quicker and safer.

As for your quote, just ask when your returning service leaves, it isn't quite rocket science to do, especially in the event of alterations being made; grammar excepted

seamus

Hamndegger wrote:

It's a pain in the arse but there is new electronic signalling that has to be tested etc and old signalling disconnected etc , and it can't be done on the line without it closing, sorry to say. In time, it will get you west quicker and safer.

What happened to out of hours testing? Have both sets of signals up and working. Use the old signals during the day, and test the new signals when the track is unused....

Yoda

Quicker? They'll alter the schedule? Before Christmas?

A friend will give me a lift to Galway and I'll take the train from there. :-) Anything to avoid a bus.

Ham'nd'egger

seamus wrote:

What happened to out of hours testing? Have both sets of signals up and working. Use the old signals during the day, and test the new signals when the track is unused....

Certainly one issue I am aware of locally is personell; the lack of depotmen for gate duties (I'm aware of some very long shifts on occasions); Westport also has a severe driver shortage as well so night testing would most likely be out of the question.

On the matter of dual signalling, I was talking to a inside man on signalling and his take on it is that there is a major health and safety issue on the running of two seperate systems at once; two totally seperate signalling systems would have clearance of the lines; disater waiting to happen.

KC61

seamus wrote:

What happened to out of hours testing? Have both sets of signals up and working. Use the old signals during the day, and test the new signals when the track is unused....

The problem is that it is not just the signals that are being renewed, nor is it that simple. There is the implementation of new track circuitry, with the associated introduction of axle counters, some track connections are being removed, others are being redesigned. Level crossings are being renewed to become automatic, to be governed from a central control centre in Athlone, and the associated signals removed and replaced by electronic signalling.

This is not something that can be done in parallel with the existing signalling. Unfortunately it does require full possession to be handed over to the engineers for removal, replacement and full commissioning.

Ham'nd'Egger is quite correct - you can only have one system or the other at any stage and not both. The amount of work to effect the switch to Mini-CTC unfortunately requires a complete shutdown.

HamndEgger wrote:

It's a pain in the arse but there is new electronic signalling that has to be tested etc and old signalling disconnected etc , and it can't be done on the line without it closing, sorry to say. In time, it will get you west quicker and safer.

The first part of this is quite correct. I don't necessarily agree that trains will be any quicker as they all stop at the same locations as before. Renewal of the track or the removal of level crossings is the only thing that will improve line speeds, and line speeds have already reverted to the 1987 level on Athlone/Westport as it is, and I would not expect there to be any further improvements. The fact that the level crossings are automated will reduce the risk of the gates not being opened in time for a train to pass, but that in itself does not improve the scheduled journey time.

As for safety, the existing system, although Victorian in design, is exceptionally safe and (some would argue) may actually be safer as you have a pair of eyes at each block post (signal cabin) as opposed to someone controlling from afar, i.e. Connolly.

What is undoubtedly the case is that staff costs (in the long run) will diminish as the men from the eight signal cabins along the route will be replaced by one controller in Connolly and the gatekeepers from seven level crossings along the route will be replaced by one controller in Athlone.

Transport21 Fan

It's unfortunate that this has to take this long, but it has to be done.

We need to get the "pure railway" concept to every inch of the network and be rid of all the mechanical junk and useless sidings. A clean, no fuss, automated railway looks modern to the punters and works with less snags. Railcars, CWR, minimal signals and points = best 21 century rail practice.

I recall when they redid Mullingar which was a rackety Victorian scrap heap and it looks great now. It'll be worth it when finished.

There is even no reason for loops at terminal stations anymore as the network will be all railcar. Just a single track a buffer stop.

The Pure Railway Concept

Station A_____/=====Passing Loop ======\_______Station B



It's great to see this happening, as just think back to the state of the network in the late 90's a ragged rustheap compared to now.

So although the closure on the Westport line is a pain, it'll be well worth it in the end and with more automation it leads to late night services eventually.

seamus

Interesting to know KC61, thanks.

The outage doesn't affect me, but coming from an IT perspective it's in my head that it's always possible (where necessary) to keep a system fully alive while upgrading to a new one.

KC61

Transport21 Fan wrote:

It's unfortunate that this has to take this long, but it has to be done.

We need to get the "pure railway" concept to every inch of the network and be rid of all the mechanical junk and useless sidings. A clean, no fuss, automated railway looks modern to the punters and works with less snags. Railcars, CWR, minimal signals and points = best 21 century rail practice.

I recall when they redid Mullingar which was a rackety Victorian scrap heap and it looks great now. It'll be worth it when finished.

There is even no reason for loops at terminal stations anymore as the network will be all railcar. Just a single track a buffer stop.

The Pure Railway Concept

Station A_________________/=====Passing Loop ======\______________Station B



It's great to see this happening, as just think back to the state of the network in the late 90's a ragged rustheap compared to now.

So although the closure on the Westport line is a pain, it'll be well worth it in the end and with more automation it leads to late night services eventually.

It will indeed be worth it - the railway will be virtually unrecognisable when it is finished!

As for no loops at termainals - I wouldn't quite agree - you will continue to need them for permanent way trains so that the locomotive can run around - unless they become railcar based as well!!! Potential failures need to have sidings also. However, it is true to say that the layouts are becoming far simpler and, as you say, the prospect of later trains is becoming more feasible by the introduction of mini-CTC.

Transport21 Fan

KC61 wrote:

However, it is true to say that the layouts are becoming far simpler and, as you say, the prospect of later trains is becoming more feasible by the introduction of mini-CTC.

The potential for late night trains with CTC makes this worth it more than anything else. This will free the network up from the retarded situation of "last trains out of Dublin at teatime". In this day and age there can be no place for this carry on if rail transport is to flourish into the future and compete with roads.

I would dearly love for there to be a evening service out of Connolly to Sligo leaving at 10 or 11PM or even midnight. It would be a huge success. IE would develop a whole new passenger base on all the lines if they did this. There is chance of this happening now finally.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote:

The problem is that it is not just the signals that are being renewed, nor is it that simple. There is the implementation of new track circuitry, with the associated introduction of axle counters, some track connections are being removed, others are being redesigned. Level crossings are being renewed to become automatic, to be governed from a central control centre in Athlone, and the associated signals removed and replaced by electronic signalling.

This is not something that can be done in parallel with the existing signalling. Unfortunately it does require full possession to be handed over to the engineers for removal, replacement and full commissioning.

Ham'nd'Egger is quite correct - you can only have one system or the other at any stage and not both. The amount of work to effect the switch to Mini-CTC unfortunately requires a complete shutdown.



The first part of this is quite correct. I don't necessarily agree that trains will be any quicker as they all stop at the same locations as before. Renewal of the track or the removal of level crossings is the only thing that will improve line speeds, and line speeds have already reverted to the 1987 level on Athlone/Westport as it is, and I would not expect there to be any further improvements. The fact that the level crossings are automated will reduce the risk of the gates not being opened in time for a train to pass, but that in itself does not improve the scheduled journey time.

As for safety, the existing system, although Victorian in design, is exceptionally safe and (some would argue) may actually be safer as you have a pair of eyes at each block post (signal cabin) as opposed to someone controlling from afar, i.e. Connolly.

What is undoubtedly the case is that staff costs (in the long run) will diminish as the men from the eight signal cabins along the route will be replaced by one controller in Connolly and the gatekeepers from seven level crossings along the route will be replaced by one controller in Athlone.

Some good points raised, KC41, as ever. If I could, dear busman...

When Mini CTC is operational, the new timetable in December will allow IE to up the speeds on certain sections on the line, the Railway Inspectorate being of the mind that Staff and Semaphore is somehow less safe to carry trains at speed. Westport was CWTed a few years back so once the sections are passed, we will be looking at about 20 minutes chipped off the timetable, maybe more with padding. (Castebar-Westport has some of the fastest sections of the whole line in it's 11 miles of track and often sees a driver catch up some time) Of course, the 22000's will help a little when brought in, with added acceleration and lesser breaking distances at stations will make a few extra minutes. Of course, it won't make June's trains any quicker, but in time, they will be quicker.

Certainly in the Westport region, I know that the gates are here to stay for the foreseeable future; the Roscommon crossings being earmarked for revamping first off AFAIK.

A Dub in Glasgo

Transport21 Fan wrote:

It's unfortunate that this has to take this long, but it has to be done.

We need to get the "pure railway" concept to every inch of the network and be rid of all the mechanical junk and useless sidings. A clean, no fuss, automated railway looks modern to the punters and works with less snags. Railcars, CWR, minimal signals and points = best 21 century rail practice.

I recall when they redid Mullingar which was a rackety Victorian scrap heap and it looks great now. It'll be worth it when finished.

There is even no reason for loops at terminal stations anymore as the network will be all railcar. Just a single track a buffer stop.

The Pure Railway Concept

Station A_____/=====Passing Loop ======\_______Station B



It's great to see this happening, as just think back to the state of the network in the late 90's a ragged rustheap compared to now.

So although the closure on the Westport line is a pain, it'll be well worth it in the end and with more automation it leads to late night services eventually.

Fine if you want a linear railway that goes from A->B for passenger services for lightly used lines. Not so good if you want extra routes around conurbations, extra services or to run freight trains to various depots/loading bays. Points are needed unless you want to built new lines to the terminal or major stations. When points are needed, you need extra signals to protect the junctions and regulate the train services.

All that mechancial 'junk' has served the railway well over the last 100 odd years.

The main reason late night services do not run is track possessions for maintenance & repair purposes. No amount of train control automation will replace that need. If you have a minimalist railway, there are no opportunities to divert services past track possessions.

Transport21 Fan

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

All that mechancial 'junk' has served the railway well over the last 100 odd years. The main reason late night services do not run is track possessions for maintenance & repair purposes. No amount of train control automation will replace that need. If you have a minimalist railway, there are no opportunities to divert services past track possessions.

The main reason we do not have late night trains in Ireland is human operated level crossings. The Sligo early bird was canceled because the "early bird" at a certain station did not want to get out of bed and open the gates in her dressing gown anymore.

Automation provides a way out of the traditional curse of the Irish Rail network..ie services being run around the needs of the rail employees rather than the passengers.

A railcar-based railway has very little maintenance compared to a locomotive based railway. Besides, IE staff never work nights which is why we had the DART closed at weekends for nearly 2 years.

Once the road links between the Southeast and the Northwest are upgraded and the price of ore at Tara becomes unsustainable due to the rise of the Euro - railfreight in Ireland will be finished forever.

Leaving in sidings and loops at this point for future railfreight is akin to keeping water towers opened and operational for future steam locomotives.

The mechanical junk is junk in 2007 as much as a gramphone player is junk for playing the latest music.

We all have to move on and deal with change as CIE senior management have made their minds up as to what kind of railway we are going to get. It's more or less a dream network compared to were we have come from in the past.

Ham'nd'egger

In fairness, T21, while I do agree with much of your points, it was the labour laws of Ireland not liking the many cases of up to 22 hour working days, broken sleep patterns and 360+ day working years for piss poor wages that our gatekeepers had to deal with, not to mention their asking family members to fill in that were the issues at hand; these were some of the conditions that many gatekeepers worked under. Those more disposed to railway tales may recount a tale of trains cancelled from gatekeepers attending family funerals on occasion, such was the pressure of their duties.

Yes, automation gets us beyond these issues, but automation is a costly exercise that is not a matter of plonking a set of lights and flashing gates into situ, it has to be a fruitful exercise that improves the service it protects. It boils down to safety, costings and practicality; the gentle depotmen who fulfil gate duties these days on many lines will also do other jobs day to day within their remits. This can only but ensure better value for money as a whole. These men are well versed on signalling and gate procedures and are a valuable asset to our railways.

KC61

Hamndegger wrote:

Some good points raised, KC41, as ever. If I could, dear busman...

When Mini CTC is operational, the new timetable in December will allow IE to up the speeds on certain sections on the line, the Railway Inspectorate being of the mind that Staff and Semaphore is somehow less safe to carry trains at speed. Westport was CWTed a few years back so once the sections are passed, we will be looking at about 20 minutes chipped off the timetable, maybe more with padding. (Castebar-Westport has some of the fastest sections of the whole line in it's 11 miles of track and often sees a driver catch up some time) Of course, the 22000's will help a little when brought in, with added acceleration and lesser breaking distances at stations will make a few extra minutes. Of course, it won't make June's trains any quicker, but in time, they will be quicker.

Certainly in the Westport region, I know that the gates are here to stay for the foreseeable future; the Roscommon crossings being earmarked for revamping first off AFAIK.

Thanks for the kind words!

However I cannot imagine a 20 minute improvement coming as a result of this project, or even the arrival of the 22000 railcars. The scope for improvement revolves around the removal of any temporary speed restrictions around level crossings due to the siting of signals. I'm not sure of any such problems on the Mayo branch as much of this work is already complete. Every train on the line already has to stop at each block post on the route as they are stations, so there is not improvement in journey times from that respect. The only block post being removed that is not a station is Knockcroghery (between Athlone and Roscommon), which will deliver a 1 to 2 minute improvement. The improved deceleration/acceleration of the railcars will probably deliver maybe 5 minutes along the route but certainly not 20 minutes.

The Mayo route is already back at 1987 end-to-end journey times of 1 hour 55 minutes (by that I mean Westport-Athlone and v.v.), with a line speed of 70mph. This is a benchmark that is going to be very hard to improve upon. Faster overall journey times on the Heuston-Westport have been achieved by making the evening down service non-stop from Heuston to Athlone, and this is probably the best scope for further improvement. Perhaps the up service (i.e.from Westport) in the morning running non-stop from Athlone?

The good news is that after the Sligo route, Westport will be the second route to receive the 22000 railcars later this year (due to the carriage links being confined to that route). Rosslare will receive the railcars in December at the timetable change, when those services will be separated from the commuter services currently integrated with them.

The main area the route will improve on will be frequency, which will probably be in December 2008 with at least 5 trains a day on the route instead of 3(some connections into/out of Galway services at Athlone), which will mean that the large gaps between trains will be bridged, and maybe there could be a connection off a later train from Heuston?

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote:

Thanks for the kind words!

However I cannot imagine a 20 minute improvement coming as a result of this project, or even the arrival of the 22000 railcars. The scope for improvement revolves around the removal of any temporary speed restrictions around level crossings due to the siting of signals. I'm not sure of any such problems on the Mayo branch as much of this work is already complete. Every train on the line already has to stop at each block post on the route as they are stations, so there is not improvement in journey times from that respect. The only block post being removed that is not a station is Knockcroghery (between Athlone and Roscommon), which will deliver a 1 to 2 minute improvement. The improved deceleration/acceleration of the railcars will probably deliver maybe 5 minutes along the route but certainly not 20 minutes.

The Mayo route is already back at 1987 end-to-end journey times of 1 hour 55 minutes (by that I mean Westport-Athlone and v.v.), with a line speed of 70mph. This is a benchmark that is going to be very hard to improve upon. Faster overall journey times on the Heuston-Westport have been achieved by making the evening down service non-stop from Heuston to Athlone, and this is probably the best scope for further improvement. Perhaps the up service (i.e.from Westport) in the morning running non-stop from Athlone?

The good news is that after the Sligo route, Westport will be the second route to receive the 22000 railcars later this year (due to the carriage links being confined to that route). Rosslare will receive the railcars in December at the timetable change, when those services will be separated from the commuter services currently integrated with them.

The main area the route will improve on will be frequency, which will probably be in December 2008 with at least 5 trains a day on the route instead of 3(some connections into/out of Galway services at Athlone), which will mean that the large gaps between trains will be bridged, and maybe there could be a connection off a later train from Heuston?

YW, KC, nice here when a debate is dominated with facts and respect for the opposite opinion, isn't it!

One of the great anomalies with CWT is that, while the track will be capable of a theoretical speed limit (In Westport's case, 70MPH), curvature in the line, level crossings, signalling issue, previous incidents, track conditions, rolling stock etc all contribute to the actual line speeds more so than anything. The highest speeds on the line are 50MPH, one of which oddly enough is at Islandeady, a level crossing! The relaying of CWT sorted out the curves and track quality; lighter rolling stock will also assist in allowing the speed limits in places to be raised alongside the improved signalling systems and saved time at stops (Your looking at about 1-2 minutes per station).

Victor

seamus wrote:

The outage doesn't affect me, but coming from an IT perspective it's in my head that it's always possible (where necessary) to keep a system fully alive while upgrading to a new one.

You have to look at risk - safety, technical and financial.

Safety - few people will die if an excel applet doesn't work, hundreds could die in a signalling failure

Technical - its a lot easier to have ongoing work with no need to have the system fully operational again in 6-8 hours. If you schedule 8 hours, you spend one hour taking things apart, two hours putting everything back together and you also need to leave time in case something goes wrong. End result: 4 hours work. If a piece doesn't fit: no work done at all.

Financial - setting the ground work of a number of weeks / months / years and then doing the job in a "big bang" is likely to be cheaper than working on a live railway.