Pope rejects historical basis for belief in Jesus as God

Sapien

Pope Benedict XVI:

... to believe that even as a man [Jesus] was God... goes beyond the possibilities of the historical method.

Of course, within a sentence, he wraps up this thought to say that an historical reading of the Gospels predicated on the conviction of faith sees this faith justified. His statement, made in relation to his upcoming book on the public life of Christ, remains however - that there is no historical reason to believe that Jesus was the son of God, in fact, that there can be no historical reason.

I don't suppose many Christians arrive at their faith by way of the testament of history, but I know of at least one - a respected veteran of this forum - who claimed that he did. I wonder are there any others who do, and who might take issue with the Pope's statement.

Fanny Cradock

Sapien wrote:

Pope Benedict XVI:

Of course, within a sentence, he wraps up this thought to say that an historical reading of the Gospels predicated on the conviction of faith sees this faith justified. His statement, made in relation to his upcoming book on the public life of Christ, remains however - that there is no historical reason to believe that Jesus was the son of God, in fact, that there can be no historical reason.

I don't suppose many Christians arrive at their faith by way of the testament of history, but I know of at least one - a respected veteran of this forum - who claimed that he did. I wonder are there any others who do, and who might take issue with the Pope's statement.

I'm not particularly interested in what the man has to say. That said, if anyone did want to comment, I think the non-edited version of his statement would prove useful.

Sapien

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I'm not particularly interested in what the man has to say. That said, if anyone did want to comment, I think the non-edited version of his statement would prove useful.

I'm not sure where one might find the speech in full, but much of it is here, and from a source that most Catholics should find relatively agreeable.

robindch

Sapien's quote is taken from this page which contains an English translation of the introduction to Ratzinger's forthcoming book. The full quote is

Joseph Ratzinger wrote:

Naturally, to believe that even as a man He was God, and made this known by concealing it within parables while nevertheless making it increasingly clear, goes beyond the possibilities of the historical method. On the contrary, if one begins from this conviction of faith and reads the texts with the historical method and with its openness to what is greater, the texts open up to reveal a way and a figure that are worthy of faith.

...which, if you read it a couple of times and leave aside an apparent tendency toward the Arian Heresy, seems to say that if you take the stories of the bible and use your imagination, that you can create something worthwhile.

Is this really what Ratzinger is saying?

Schuhart

Is the Pope a Catholic?

Seriously, I think he's basically atheist or at least agnostic. I mean, his alleged 'Islam is evil' speech didn't really say that, but did happily acknowledge that the Bible was influenced by Greek thought on its journey across Europe. I didn't read his comments on Hell in detail but what I saw seemed to be saying the Penny Catechism view of the Devil tormenting you is pure bunk, and its more like living in Athlone.

Now he's pretty much saying if you want to believe in Jesus you'd better close your eyes and wish real hard. I wouldn't say much different myself.

But, of course, there's no doubting that he's a Catholic Atheist.

PDN

Schuhart wrote:

but what I saw seemed to be saying the Penny Catechism view of the Devil tormenting you is pure bunk, and its more like living in Athlone.

ROTFL

robindch

Schuhart wrote:

Now he's pretty much saying if you want to believe in Jesus you'd better close your eyes and wish real hard.

Thanks -- I was wondering if I'd misread it. I would not have expected the pope to have had the considerable philosophical honesty required to admit that his religion is supported by nothing but itself and wishful thinking.