Sweden's Vision Zero: I wish FF would read this

jetsonx

Key to Vision Zero is the radical notion of moving responsibility for accidents away from road users and on to those who design the road transport system

When is the myth that the Irish government propagate that Irish drivers are always to blame for fatal road accidents going to stop.




http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Article____16182.aspx

naitkris

it goes both ways, but i agree that with the standard of some of Ireland's roads, the road service body should take a fair amount of responsibility.

Zoney

Five minutes watching a road and you'll see muppets who shouldn't be behind a wheel.

Of course, that's partly the govts. fault too considering the length of wait for driving tests, the crazy system with provisional licences, driving home after failing tests, people not having done tests at all (the amnesty/previous solution to backlog), the current old-style test, the way driving lessons are policed in this country, etc., etc.

Then there's the issue of enforcement, it is still the case that most of the time people will get away with traffic offences. We don't even have enough Garda to police the state though, so this isn't surprising.

But really, it is no good despite the governments failure to take responsibility for fixing things, to pretend that the general state of driving in this country is anything other than appalling.

Victor

The Vägverket (VV - Swedish Road Administration) has a fair bit of content in English.

http://www.vv.se/templates/page2_2____13172.aspx

Zebra3

Zoney wrote:

Five minutes watching a road and you'll see muppets who shouldn't be behind a wheel.

Or if you don't have five minutes, just try two minutes on two wheels.

Chris_533976

Or just spend 5 minutes in the middle lane of a D3M (which you shouldnt do anyway) and watch greater idiots undertaking you.

Lennoxschips

It's not an either/or argument. Ireland needs safer roads AND better drivers.

I bet that getting your license in Sweden is a fair bit less of the "teach yourself to drive" joke it is here in Ireland.

is_that_so

I was under the impression that the use of barriers was the plan for single carriageway roads. Here's an NRA document. Sweden is quoted there as the model for it.What bothers me is just how long some of these things seem to take to get up and running. As for what goes on, out on the roads , well until the Gardai, start pulling people for carry-on that is likely to remain unchanged.

Stark

I've seen that system on the N20 going from Cork to Mallow. It's okay, but I think if you're building new roads, you should spend the extra bit upfront and go for a full dual carriageway. Those 2+1 roads have their own problems where people see the end of the overtaking lane coming up and they make a mad fearsome dash to overtake that last tractor/Sunday driver.

Stark

It's interesting to see that Belgium has a higher rate of fatalities than Ireland. I thought it would be the other way round.

embraer170

Anyone have results from the 2+1 pilot projects?

They seem good from a driver perspective but a nightmare for a pedestrian / cyclist / resident / someone just wanting to cross the road. The Swedish national primary roads seem to be a lot more isolated from their direct surroundings than those in Ireland (obviously as a result of good/bad planning)....

It is not unsual to see people with prams / dogs whatever walking along the hard shoulder of national primary roads in the south west (obviously a bit crazy, but I guess they have nowhere else) and that would be totally impossible in a 2+1 scenario.

Mucco

jetsonx wrote:

When is the myth that the Irish government propagate that Irish drivers are always to blame for fatal road accidents going to stop.

I'm not sure I understand your point. I've never heard of a lump of metal jumping up and attacking someone spontaneously, likewise a stretch of tarmac. The driver is nearly always to blame for an 'accident'.

Archytas

I don't see roads telling people to speed? Or drive while drunk? No amount of good road design will stop those morons. I say lose you license for a year. And none of this sh*te about needing you car for work? So the hell what.

Chris_533976

That piece of 2+1 is terrible. Its jammed often due to the 2 to 1 bit, plus muppets overtaking at the last second rather than having a bit of patience.

Also its littered with at grade junctions. As a roads experiment, its a shambles.

If Limerick to Waterford is gonna be 2+1, which I've heard it is, it will be offline I think, and not the 10km shambles of 2+1 that part of the N20 is.

Stark

Archytas wrote:

I don't see roads telling people to speed? Or drive while drunk? No amount of good road design will stop those morons.

I agree that the bulk of responsibility lies with the drivers. Although with good road design, you can reduce the chances that an encounter with a moron proves fatal. For example, motorways and dual carriageways are safer because you're separated from traffic travelling in the other direction so you don't have to worry about travelling round a bend and encountering someone coming head on towards you. (Unless someone decides to do a U-turn or come the wrong way down the off-ramp).

I say lose you license for a year. And none of this sh*te about needing you car for work? So the hell what.

Yes definitely.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Davidth88

Is the 2+1 like the climbing lanes . If they are then they will be useless because how many times have you be caught behind some idiot doing 70-80kph on the outside lane of a climbing lane ........ and do they move over .... no of course not.

As for the whole building safer roads thing , I lost any respect for the NRA when they built all the new motorways with no crash barrier , and then I heard some muppet on the radio defending this , saying 30 yards of grass is perfectly safe blah blah blah.

If this guy ever saw an HGV go out of control , and what it took to stop 30 odd tonnes of lorry he would never say that again. ( I woke up once to find and HGV embedded in my neighbours front room , and he had taken 300 yds and a tree/lampost/bus shelter/telegraph pole/fence but still had not stopped )

Of course we all have responsibility for safety but there are 3 E's to remember

Engineering .... discussed in this thread
Education .......totally lacking , you get a provisional and drive off , fail a test and drive home .....but too many votes to lose I guess ?
Enforcement..... getting better , but still ' a numbers game ' where the Gards are happy to sit just inside a 50/60kph zone and nab people who are a bit slow to brake or a bit quick to accelarate. The random breath testing is the best thing to happen here in years, lets hope we see more of it.

Skyhater

I disagree that most of the blame is due to the drivers..... The Swedes are correct; the root cause is "the design the road transport system"

This includes the 3E's (most people are focusing on Engineering in this thread).
But the thing the needs most attention is the Enforcement.
Not the detection side of the Enforcement (which most people think of - and which required €€€€€€€ to increase), but the consequence side of Enforcement. Punishments should be so high, nobody would even consider Drink Driving, or Driving 50 Km/h over the speed limit!!!
This would also result in a massive cultural change.

MrPudding

Skyhater wrote:

But the thing the needs most attention is the Enforcement.
Not the detection side of the Enforcement (which most people think of - and which required €€€€€€€ to increase), but the consequence side of Enforcement. Punishments should be so high, nobody would even consider Drink Driving, or Driving 50 Km/h over the speed limit!!!
This would also result in a massive cultural change.

I disagree. For me the most important of the 3E's is education. In Ireland there isn't any. If we had a properly thought out driver’s ed system, turning out well rounded drivers we should see a great decrease in road deaths. I agree that enforcement is important but I strongly disagree with massive increases in punishments.

How about we try enforcing the current laws with the current punishments. The enforcement problem is not that people think the punishments are too small, it is that they believe there is no chance of them having to face them. I had this discussion on a thread about driving in bus lanes. A poster said that the €60 fine was not a deterrent to wealthy people. And he was right, assuming of course the rich person only got caught a couple of times a year. But, what if he was caught for every infringement every day? So now we are looking at paying a minimum of €120 per day for the privilege for using the bus lanes. You would need to be pretty rich to be able to take that.

The point I am trying to make here is that the punishments do not need to be extreme, you just need a high likelihood of them being enforced.

You also mention cultural change. This is another thing I think is incredibly important. There is a major issue with Irish drivers. Each seems to think that their time is more important than everyone else’s. This leads to very inconsiderate driving and a lot of road rage. Again, I think education is the way to tackle this rather than enforcement.

Enforcement is treating the symptom, education is treating the cause. Treating the cause is always better.

MrP

Stark

MrPudding wrote:

I had this discussion on a thread about driving in bus lanes. A poster said that the €60 fine was not a deterrent to wealthy people. And he was right, assuming of course the rich person only got caught a couple of times a year. But, what if he was caught for every infringement every day? So now we are looking at paying a minimum of €120 per day for the privilege for using the bus lanes. You would need to be pretty rich to be able to take that.

Even for someone with average earnings, the time and petrol saved would be more than worth the expense. The current system relies on nothing more than people's honesty imo.

MrPudding

Stark wrote:

Even for someone with average earnings, the time and petrol saved would be more than worth the expense. The current system relies on nothing more than people's honesty imo.

What! Someone on average earning paying €600 PER WEEK to drive in bus lanes.

Christ. I thought I was earning above average in Dublin but i would not afford that. Can you explain you thinking here please?

I would be surprised if average earnings in Dublin were €120 per day.

MrP

Davidth88

Bus lanes are one thing cameras are perfect for. In London they started to introduce these just about when I left and overnight you got near 100% compliance.

Mr Pudding is spot on , Education is a key factor here , it won't have instant results but it will drip feed through .

Really all three E's as I said in my earlier post.

I get slightly annoyed by the obvious hand wringing by the ministers responsible , and what exactly is the function of the Road Safety Council ? Do they have the powers to order a re-design of a dangerous junction .....? Or do they just fund adverts ?

On a slightly off topic thing , anyone else get fed up with the use of the word carnage by the media ?
What I found in the dictionary ...

"the slaughter of a great number of people, as in battle; butchery; massacre."

Stark

MrPudding wrote:

What! Someone on average earning paying €600 PER WEEK to drive in bus lanes.

Christ. I thought I was earning above average in Dublin but i would not afford that. Can you explain you thinking here please?

I would be surprised if average earnings in Dublin were €120 per day.

MrP

I was referring to the situation where someone was caught only a few times a year. For god sake, think before you react.

Skyhater

MrPudding wrote:

I disagree. For me the most important of the 3E's is education. In Ireland there isn't any. If we had a properly thought out driver’s ed system, turning out well rounded drivers we should see a great decrease in road deaths.

I agree with a lot you have to say..... But we have to do something, and we have to do it Fast!!!! Unfortunately Education has a latency attached to it.
We also have to be realistic with the level of resources we have.

MrPudding wrote:

I agree that enforcement is important but I strongly disagree with massive increases in punishments.
How about we try enforcing the current laws with the current punishments. The enforcement problem is not that people think the punishments are too small, it is that they believe there is no chance of them having to face them. I had this discussion on a thread about driving in bus lanes. A poster said that the €60 fine was not a deterrent to wealthy people. And he was right, assuming of course the rich person only got caught a couple of times a year. But, what if he was caught for every infringement every day? So now we are looking at paying a minimum of €120 per day for the privilege for using the bus lanes. You would need to be pretty rich to be able to take that.

The point I am trying to make here is that the punishments do not need to be extreme, you just need a high likelihood of them being enforced.

This is an ideal situation..... A guard on every corner/bridge/intersection. Unfortunately we don't have those resources at the moment (and probably never will).
So if we can't enforce the current punishments, we must increase the punishment. Driver attitude is a function of "Chance of Getting Caught" and "What happend when i do get caught"!!!!

MrPudding wrote:

You also mention cultural change. This is another thing I think is incredibly important. There is a major issue with Irish drivers. Each seems to think that their time is more important than everyone else’s. This leads to very inconsiderate driving and a lot of road rage. Again, I think education is the way to tackle this rather than enforcement.

Enforcement (or in general Legislation) can have a dramatic effect on Culture. Take the smoking ban for example. All the education in the world did not stop people from smoking in public places. But look at what happened when the Smoking Ban came in.... Immediate culture change!!!
Same would happen with Drink Driving. If you lost your licence for Life when caught drink driving; Think of what your friends would say when you picked up those keys. lt would only need to happen to a couple of people!!!!

MrPudding wrote:

Enforcement is treating the symptom, education is treating the cause. Treating the cause is always better.

MrP

As a final point. Education will influence about 60-70%* of the population (There's always a % that won't listen, can't listen, never attends school, etc). High Consequences will effect 95-98%* of the population (again, there's always a few that will disregard any law or culture)

(*I hate putting in percentages when i have no studies to back them up.... but just take them as indicators)

MrPudding

Stark wrote:

I was referring to the situation where someone was caught only a few times a year. For god sake, think before you react.

Sorry!

MrP