Cesar Millan

Annika30

What do you think of cesar Millans methods? I just love wathching his show. I have just finished his book 'The natural everyday guide to understanding & correcting common dog behaviour', but I wasn't that impressed with the book.
But I just want to add that I do not agree with using electrical collars, which I know he has done on his show.

Ruu_Old

I watch the show sometimes and I think alot of what he says makes sense. That said there is nothing new or special about his methods so it is a bit wrong of him to claim them as his own.

Annika30

I agree.

peasant

You cant be serious?

You being a dog trainer and all ...

That man is the worst bully I've ever seen. And a cynic on top of it, as he markets himself as a "dog whisperer".

Whisper, me arse ...he uses brute force to achieve the quick televisable result, making most dogs actually worse than better in the long run. (but by then of course he's long gone, leaving the poor owner wondering what they have done wrong, as it worked "so well" when Cesar was doing it.)

I hope he meets the wrong (the right!) dog sooner rather than later ...a nice, hefty, self-assured Rottweiler (or something along those lines) that'll teach him that brute force isn't the way to train a dog.

Annika30

I'll take that as you don't like him;)

peasant

Don't like him?


Don't ever let me near the man :mad:

Annika30

Haha! I do like the fact the he tries to 'educate' dogowners that don't seem to understand the importance of exercising your dog, it can prevent so many behavioural issues. But as I said I certainly don't agree with all of his methods.

LisaW

I am in shock... Cesar Millan has set dog training back 20 years in the states....

I thought you were a reward and motivational dog trainer

Rigsby

I'm not familiar with Cesar Millans but I think he was discussed on this forum recently. If I remember correctly some people back then also remarked on his use of force to "train" the dog. If what peasant says is true than I'm better off not knowing him. One of my heroines is Jan Fennell. I have learned a lot about dog behaviour and basic training by reading her books. Her method involves getting the dog to obey because he wants to by rewarding good behaviour. There is absolutely no force or cruelty involved.

peasant

Annika30 wrote:

Haha! I do like the fact the he tries to 'educate' dogowners that don't seem to understand the importance of exercising your dog, it can prevent so many behavioural issues. But as I said I certainly don't agree with all of his methods.

Well ...there is exercising your dog and then there is the Cesar Millan way ...tiring it out so utterly and completly that the dog is too knackered to resist any of his particular brand of cruelty.

Ever noticed how he makes sure to drag all these dogs a few times round the block first, before he dares touching them?

Of course he disguises it as "obedience" lessons on the lead ...

Annika30

I do agree with you on that, the Cesar Millan way of exercising dogs is quite extreme. But most of the dog owners he goes to never seem to take their dogs out for a walk, he would always suggest daily walks, that's what I mean.

Nala

I saw him running a dog on a treadmill- aren't treadmills bad for joints? And surely the dog is better off running in the fresh air anyway?

I'm not that familiar with him, what methods does he use?

Annika30

He uses 'flooding' for instance. Don't think treadmills would be ideal for all dogs, I have seen him use that on the show and he writes about it in his book to.

LisaW

Annika, I think most non dog trainers will not understand what "flooding" means perhaps you would elaborate on its meaning? Do you agree with using flooding?

Annika30

Sorry about that, 'flooding' is if you make a dog experience severe fear or arousing stimuli for an extended period of time. No I don't agree with that.
My question was what you think of his methods. But as I said before I do think the fact that he keeps bringing up the importance of exercise is good.

peasant

Annika30 wrote:

Sorry about that, 'flooding' is if you make a dog experience severe fear or arousing stimuli for an extended period of time. No I don't agree with that.
My question was what you think of his methods. But as I said before I do think the fact that he keeps bringing up the importance of exercise is good.

That's akin to saying that Hitler was a good man ...because he built the autobahn

Rigsby

Annika30 wrote:

the fact that he keeps bringing up the importance of exercise is good.

You dont have to be a dog trainer to know that a dog needs exercise. Any half-wit could tell you that. Whether people want to take the time to do so is another matter.

Annika30

Haha! Well that's not how I meant it;)

Schlemm

Controlled flooding is a more milder form of habituating an animal to a stimulus that it percieves as harmful, eg, fireworks. The animal is exposed to the stimulus at a level that doesn't evoke a response and the exposure to the stimulus is gradually increased. Ideally what should happen is that the animal gets used to the stimulus and isn't bothered by it anymore. You can get tapes and cd's with firework noise on them and play them to your dog at a sub-anxiety level, and gradually increasing the noise level on the CD will teach the dog that fireworks are harmless, provided you use this training technique properly and don't reinforce fear-related behavior.

Controlled flooding is reccomended for really severe phobias so that you don't freak the animal out completely and terrify it to bits, wheras flooding is really intended for mild phobias. Has anyone ever tried controlled flooding with firework CD's or tapes? We have a rescue dog who's terrified of fireworks and it's awful seeing her at Hallowe'en when she's in bits with fear.

Jotter

never heard of flooding in animals before now but I know that in cognitive behaviour therapy in humans, if you have an extreme irrational fear of something you will most likely be exposed to your fear over and over to the point where you could have panic attacks , the idea is to over expose you to the fear to the point where it no longer affects you. Humans however have the capacity to understand whats being done whereas Id imagine an animal would just be scared over and over and not know why it keeps happening! I dont know of Ceasar Millan except that I saw him on Oprah, who of course had him down as the best thing ever! I quite like Karen Pryor, I havnt used her clicker training bec I never have the bloody clicker to hand when I need it but I find her methods work very well on humans (the ignore bad behaviour, immediately reward good!!)

macshadow

Rigsby wrote:

I'm not familiar with Cesar Millans but I think he was discussed on this forum recently. If I remember correctly some people back then also remarked on his use of force to "train" the dog. If what peasant says is true than I'm better off not knowing him. One of my heroines is Jan Fennell. I have learned a lot about dog behaviour and basic training by reading her books. Her method involves getting the dog to obey because he wants to by rewarding good behaviour. There is absolutely no force or cruelty involved.

the dog listener by jan fennell is essential reading for first time dog
owners.so easy to read and understand.

peasant

Schlemm wrote:

Has anyone ever tried controlled flooding with firework CD's or tapes? We have a rescue dog who's terrified of fireworks and it's awful seeing her at Hallowe'en when she's in bits with fear.

Dogs' hearing is far better than ours, plus they're not stupid either.
You can "flood" them all you want with canned fireworks ...the real thing will still get them going.

The best thing (against fireworks) still is to lead by example. Ignore it, stay absolutely calm, pretend it doesn't exist, continue your routine and don't fuss about the frightened dog.

Sooner or later it'll cop on.

peasant

macshadow wrote:

Here Here,the dog listener by jan fennell is essential reading for first time dog
owners.so easy to read and understand.

ah well ...

Good Mrs Fennell is a harmless enough recommendation, but I wouldn't exactly grant her writings "bible" status either.

She watched some wolves on the telly and deducts that you have to eat before and in front of your dogs before feeding them to point out to them that you're their leader?

Been there, done that ...pretended to eat dog kibble in front of their eyes:D ...I swear to you, they were sniggering to each other behind their paws :rolleyes:

You become a credible leader by being a credible leader. It's as simple and as difficult as just that.

Be predictable, be consequent, be consistent, be just ...all the time, every time, and you've won.

Very, very simple and yet so damn difficult for your average, emotional human being.

LisaW

Schlemm what you are describing is called desensitisation not flooding. Flooding is inadvisable to use when rehabilitating a dog. Especially where the emotional response is fear. The risk of the animals response worsening and them developing a phobia is very high with Flooding.

Desensitisation means that the the stimulus is presented to the dog at a level that does not cause a reaction, for example a fireworks cd on low low volume. As the dog habituates to the fireworks at that level the volume should be increased slightly, ensuring there is no reaction from the dog. Over weeks and months the dog becomes desensitised to the stimulus regardless of the volume. Counter conditioning is also often used in conjuction with this which means that the stimulis in then associated with something else, usually something good like food, toys or play.

With dogs that are reactive towards other dogs we counter condition them to associate a reward with the sight of the other dog. This triggers them to look at their owner and receive a reward rather than barking and lunging at the other dog.

I do not recommend Jan Fennell as her theories and principles are outdated, but at least she does not use force. An excellent book to read is called the "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson available on www.Dogwise.com. Another excellent book is called Dominance Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton.

LisaW

Hear Hear Peasant

macshadow

For first time dog owners!
I can't read or write as well as i would like but would never take the piss out of someone else for same.

peasant

macshadow

I never meant to "take the piss" out of you.

Read the good Mrs. Fennells' works myself as a beginner ('tis true ...I did pretend to be eating dog kibble with a very bemused dog watching ).

Reading her books probably do very little harm, but still, I coulnd't really recommend them either.

Especially as many first time dog owners seem to be desparate for the one "golden recipe" that'll make their relationship with their dog work.

There is no such thing as the "golden recipe" and Mrs Fennell certainly didn't write it either.

Our man in Havana

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