When Belief goes Bad: The Westboro Baptist Church

DublinWriter

One of the most shocking documentaries I saw recently was Louis Theroux’s exposé of the Westboro Baptist Church.

For those of you who don’t know, the Westboro Baptist Church are an extreme Christian sect totalling around 30 and which most are comprised of the same family based in Topeka, Kansas.

They peddle an extreme homophobic agenda and actively protest at the funerals of the US Army with signs such as “God Hates the US Fag Army” and “God Hates Fags”, etc etc, you can guess/youtube the rest.

For starters, there’s plenty of people you can mess with in the U.S., but the worse bunch you could probably pick a fight with are ex-servicemen. Why? Because most are expertly weapon trained but also have mental health issues due to the GOP’s failure to institute health and social security plans for veterans.

Here’s a mini-rollcall of ex-US Servicemen turned Psycho Killer:

Lee Harvey Oswald
The Washington Sniper
Timothy McVey

From watching some of the reaction on sites like youtube and break, plenty of people are stumping up to kill the members of the Westboro Baptist Church. The WBC even publishes a list of forthcoming funerals that they intend to picket on their website (www.godhatesfags.com).

My argument is that these people should have their kids taken into protective care.

Why? Because with all the recent exposure they’ve been having in 2006/2007 courtesy of Fox News and the BBC and how they advertise their future protests and involve their kids in their protests, I’m sure some nut-case will fire off several rounds at them before the year is out.

…as always, it’s the children who are in the front line.

dil999

Facinating Documentary. I had a trawl through there web pages and did a few searches on Fred Phelpes. He is a former Lawyer with what appears to be a very dubious career. Fourteen of the family of 70 odd are Lawers.

I get the impression that what he is doing is to create a signigicant backlash through his hate protests. An then sues the City, and the Police, including individual officers for not protecting him. He then hopeds they'll settle out of court

He also counter sues anyone who attempts to sue him for defamation. The Father of a US serviceman currently has a suit against Phelpes and the "Church" for defamation. I think they hit back with a counter suit.

More of a business than a religion

"godhatessweden.com"

anto1208

Wacko's allright but interestingly the only religion that actually follows what the bible says rather than picking a choosing part to suit themselves .

Probibly why its not a good idea to take the bible literally

Zombrex

Really though, who doesn't hate Sweden?

robindch

hmm... I rather like Sweden. Our customers there pay on time and often without having first to be bollocked. Honest folks, up there. Learned a lot since the Vikings. But then again, they gave the world Ikea, Abba and surstromming...

Sangre

I love Sweden...

Scofflaw

robindch wrote:

hmm... I rather like Sweden. Our customers there pay on time and often without having first to be bollocked. Honest folks, up there. Learned a lot since the Vikings. But then again, they gave the world Ikea, Abba and surstromming...

Also lutefisk. Have you ever had lutefisk?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

remember Genesis 6 guys

5 The LORD saw how great Sweden's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of Sweden's heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made Sweden on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe Sweden, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made Sweden."


As ever the Bible puts the wickedness of Sweden better than I ever could ...

robindch

Scofflaw wrote:

Also lutefisk. Have you ever had lutefisk?

No, but I've stood in it a few times.

robindch

Wicknight wrote:

As ever the Bible puts the wickedness of Sweden better than I ever could...

Ah, you're using Brian's revolutionary "substitution" hermeneutic from a few days back -- good on ya!

Since it's friday and everybody's in a good mood, does anybody else have any bible verses that make sense all over again when a vital word or two are substituted with something completely different?

Or do we want to take this over to A+A-Anon before it goes completely off topic...?

DublinWriter

anto1208 wrote:

Wacko's allright but interestingly the only religion that actually follows what the bible says rather than picking a choosing part to suit themselves .

"Actually follows what the bible says" you say? Never heard of "judge not, least yet be judged" or even "Love thy neighbour as thineself"? Obviously the Phelps didn't.

The problem is that they are picking and choosing what they want to back up their twisted agenda.

(If the bible was so clear cut and not full of contradictions then preists would be out of a job.)

The problem is they obsess over the part in the Old Testiment book of Leviticus that states that it is an obomination for a man to 'lie down' with another man.

It is also the book of Leviticus that states that eating shellfish is an obomination unto God, yet I didn't see the Phelps picketting "Tom's Shrimp Shack" at any time.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Ah, you're using Brian's revolutionary "substitution" hermeneutic from a few days back -- good on ya!

Since it's friday and everybody's in a good mood, does anybody else have any bible verses that make sense all over again when a vital word or two are substituted with something completely different?

Or do we want to take this over to A+A-Anon before it goes completely off topic...?

Don't know ho wmuch longer I can take this.

What a sorry bunch. Westboro that is, not Robin and wicknight.

Fanny Cradock

BrianCalgary wrote:

What a sorry bunch. Westboro that is, not Robin and wicknight.

Well at least all posting on this board can agree on that. Would that be a first?

UU

Yeah and do you know that those weirdos have made a statement on their godhatesamerica website saying that the 33 students shot dead in Virginia is God's punishment on America???!!! They said that they thanks god that the students were shot and that they'll demonstate at the funerals!!! I can't post their website address because it's a hate site.

They are sick people really! What sort of God do they follow? Obviously one that is related to Adolf Hitler or something. Them people are insane, evil, whacked-up weirdos. This is what they've stated:

Evil people of Westboro Baptist Church wrote:

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

I only posted this to show you how insane they are so don't give out to me! Need I say more??? :mad:

wolfsbane

UU said:

Yeah and do you know that those weirdos have made a statement on their godhatesamerica website saying that the 33 students shot dead in Virginia is God's punishment on America???!!! They said that they thanks god that the students were shot and that they'll demonstate at the funerals!!! I can't post their website address because it's a hate site.

They are sick people really! What sort of God do they follow? Obviously one that is related to Adolf Hitler or something. Them people are insane, evil, whacked-up weirdos. This is what they've stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil people of Westboro Baptist Church
WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

I only posted this to show you how insane they are so don't give out to me! Need I say more???

Thanks for the info, UU. Yes, they are weird alright. I too watched the documentary and it left me both sad and sickened. I was sad especially for the young people. They had been fed a heady mix of truth and error and nurtured in living out the erroneous part to the full.

Their radical pacificism obviously endangers no one but themselves, liable as it is to provoke great anger from the offended community. But being pacifist is not to say they hurt no one, for the bereaved will certainly be pained by their in-your-face protests.

The question of whether this is really an expression of religion or an example of empire-building cultism, or even insanity, is an interesting one. I suspect money/power is the prime mover in its founder. He has his own little kingdom. Ego is another evident trait with him. His campaign has brought him a prominence he might otherwise have failed to achieve.

Like all successful cults, a good dollop of unfashionable truth is a key ingredient in the attempt to persuade people to swallow the poisonous lie. This man has several solid parts to his theology, parts that will stand up as historic Christian theology that has been neglected by modern America. That will get him some hearers. Then too he has touched on a key political nerve when he attacks Bush for the war in Iraq. That gets him some other hearers. And he can rely on the backlash against the aggressive homosexual agenda in America.

The bottom line concering him and his cult is this: no matter what truths he may be stating, the errors in doctrine and practice he promotes mark him out as a deceiver and no Christian at all. He is just a tool of Satan to smear the name of Christ.

An example of twisting the truth to make it a lie is clear in the slogan, GOD HATES FAGS. The truth is that God hates homosexuality and that God is angry with those who practice it. But that applies to all forms of sin: God hates fornication and is angry with fornicators; God hates lies and is angry with liars; God hates theft and is angry with thieves; etc.

What true Christians do is to preach to sinners their need of a Saviour; the certainty of both the Judgement to come on all who refuse to repent and of forgiveness to all who do. Not what the Westboro pastor is about at all.

UU

wolfsbane wrote:

UU said:

Thanks for the info, UU. Yes, they are weird alright. I too watched the documentary and it left me both sad and sickened. I was sad especially for the young people. They had been fed a heady mix of truth and error and nurtured in living out the erroneous part to the full.

Their radical pacificism obviously endangers no one but themselves, liable as it is to provoke great anger from the offended community. But being pacifist is not to say they hurt no one, for the bereaved will certainly be pained by their in-your-face protests.

The question of whether this is really an expression of religion or an example of empire-building cultism, or even insanity, is an interesting one. I suspect money/power is the prime mover in its founder. He has his own little kingdom. Ego is another evident trait with him. His campaign has brought him a prominence he might otherwise have failed to achieve.

Like all successful cults, a good dollop of unfashionable truth is a key ingredient in the attempt to persuade people to swallow the poisonous lie. This man has several solid parts to his theology, parts that will stand up as historic Christian theology that has been neglected by modern America. That will get him some hearers. Then too he has touched on a key political nerve when he attacks Bush for the war in Iraq. That gets him some other hearers. And he can rely on the backlash against the aggressive homosexual agenda in America.

The bottom line concering him and his cult is this: no matter what truths he may be stating, the errors in doctrine and practice he promotes mark him out as a deceiver and no Christian at all. He is just a tool of Satan to smear the name of Christ.

An example of twisting the truth to make it a lie is clear in the slogan, GOD HATES FAGS. The truth is that God hates homosexuality and that God is angry with those who practice it. But that applies to all forms of sin: God hates fornication and is angry with fornicators; God hates lies and is angry with liars; God hates theft and is angry with thieves; etc.

What true Christians do is to preach to sinners their need of a Saviour; the certainty of both the Judgement to come on all who refuse to repent and of forgiveness to all who do. Not what the Westboro pastor is about at all.

Hi Wolfbane!

Thanks for commenting! Yes, it seems to me that Fred Phelps has this whole cult thing going on. It's like he is an emperor in his own little kingdom. Now, actually the Phelps clan aren't pacifists at all. One in particular has been done for assault against many people which I read once. They are very far from pacifism. Because certainly their vulgar and hate speech is not considered passive. But I'm certain you were talking of a physical way. In fact, I sorta feel sorry for them because they are blind and full of unnessessary hatred. If they followed the New testament correctly, they'd realise that Jesus says that you shouldn't hate others: The Golden Rule 'Do not do upon to others that you would not like done upon to you', and they'd realise that they too are sinning but they are worthy of forgiveness. I find it most disturbing though how Phelps has corrupted the minds of his children and grandchildren - I reckon that's child cruelty.

Now, regarding homosexuality. I do understand your view as an observant Christian on it. Now, my views are totally opposite. I'm actually gay myself, and although it's not something I go around saying but it's an intrinsic part of who I am. I do understand your views and certain Christian views on it. In my opinion, I don't think for one minute that homosexuality and fornification are sins because there's no reason why they should be because sins hurt others and if it's between two consending adults in a loving relationship, I don't see the problem; but that's my opinion and I don't expect many Christians here to agree with it. In fact according to the Bible, homosexuality (being homosexual) itself is not a sin but the act of homosexuality is. So if two men love each other and refrain from sex, then tecniquely they're not sinning (and notice also that two women were never mentioned due to their low status at the time).

One of the fundamental teachings of Jesus is 'Hate the sin but love the sinner' and each person sins in one form or another - no human being is sin free, especially Fred Phelps. But it is also said in the Bible that Jesus loves everyone and his love is so strong that he forgives people and all their sins.

But I don't want this to be a debate on homosexuality in the Bible because we've had many of these already and they've ended with people becoming fustrated because others won't agree with them, etc.

So my compromise, is to agree to disagree. I have my views, you have yours. As long as we can treat each other with respect, compassion and kindness, that's all that matters really and that's what Jesus says in the NT. If the Phelps' hearts were more open to the suffering and humanity of others, they'd be better people, everyone would.

Regards,

UU

BrianCalgary

Well said UU.

I especially agree with this: homosexuality (being homosexual) itself is not a sin but the act of homosexuality is. So if two men love each other and refrain from sex, then tecniquely they're not sinning

wolfsbane

UU said:

Now, actually the Phelps clan aren't pacifists at all. One in particular has been done for assault against many people which I read once.

I must have picked them up wrong. It seemed very like what I have encountered with others who are 'militant pacifists'.

So my compromise, is to agree to disagree. I have my views, you have yours. As long as we can treat each other with respect, compassion and kindness, that's all that matters really and that's what Jesus says in the NT. If the Phelps' hearts were more open to the suffering and humanity of others, they'd be better people, everyone would.

Yes, if love for the sinner motivated Phelps rather than whatever is driving him, he would actually be preaching the gospel faithfully.

I know the ignorant and unlearned in relation to the Bible can fall into serious error - but Phelps has a long exposure to the theology of the Bible, is is therefore without excuse. The first disciples in their ignorance wished to call down God's judgement on sinners, but Christ rebuked them and set them right about God's timing and their present responsibilities:
Luke 9:51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.

The Christian is called to warn the sinner (that's everyone) to turn from their evil ways and follow the Lord, other wise they will face the eternal wrath of God. And this command is not merely to stop sinning, but brings the authority for those who obey to become the children of God. The Christian gospel is all about God's love for those who will turn to Him and of the eternal glory that He has laid up for them. The Bible pictures this loving relationship as the closeness of husband and wife:
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Christ is also pictured as the Captain of His people and as their High priest, One who fully indenties with them and has come to their rescue:
Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:


“ I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:


“ I will put My trust in Him.”


And again:


“ Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

...then tecniquely (sic) they're not sinning...

I imagine that would depend on the actual technique, though...

not picking on you, honest,
Scofflaw

UU

Hi there!

Thanks Brian, Wolfsbane (for your lengthy but interesting piece ) and Scofflaw for your comments, they were all very interesting. I do think the issue of homosexuality is and will be quite a hot and controversial topic in Christianity and many other religions for that matter. I suppose really the view differs depending on a particular Christian's own view. Some might think homosexual acts are sins, other may not and embrace everyone with a common love set forth by Jesus - the Golden rule, for example and see sexuality as something private and personal. But I suppose it all depends on how one interprets the texts and which texts they choose to follow - for example, one mightn't regard Old Testament scriptures as as important as NT ones - my grandmother doesn't for example. In fact, she said to me once if she were to cut out of the Bible the most important passages, she'd choose 'Sermon on the Mount'. But I suppose one should be open-minded and emphatise with others. Basically, the message I got from Jesus in the NT which religions teach also is that if you would like to be treated with kindness, respect, compassion, love, humanity, etc., you must treat others the same. And also it is not a Christian's place to judge on other people's sins asthey themselves sin and that everyone is worthy of forgiveness by God.

Anyway, that's enough rambling from me! I have a essay to do for Russian on the Cossacks of the Southern Steppes! Fascinating stuff may I add!

Regards,

UU

UU

Scofflaw wrote:

I imagine that would depend on the actual technique, though...

not picking on you, honest,
Scofflaw

That's true though but I don't think it would be too appropiate to discuss it here though! Maybe on the sexuality forum if it weren't freaking locked all the time!!! :rolleyes: