'02 Passat vs '00 BMW 3-Series vs '02 Mazda 6

defenstration

Lookin to buy a 2nd hand car and caught between the following:
'02 Volkswagen Passat
'00 BMW 3-Series
'02 Mazda 6, or might even be able to sort out a '03

Any ideas welcome cos as it stands I haven't taken a test drive in any of them, although will be takin' a spin in a Passat and BMW over the long weekend. So info on the Mazda would be especially welcome cos I dunno are they a good car or not. Dunno anyone who has any experience with them.

The main thing I would be looking for would be just driving comfort - in a Yaris at the moment and it makes mincemeat of my back, which is already in a bad enough state.

And keep in mind when replying that I know pretty much nothing about cars, so keep the information basic!

ninty9er

Passat's comfortable, but if a salesman feeds you the VW reliability crap, tell him you know just how unreliable they can be. The electrics in particular suffer from the 01 facelift onwards...

The 320's a driver's car, will probably be a stiffer ride as BMWs are made to be driver's cars. Not uncomfortable though. Drove a 316 the other day and it was quite comfortable compared to my Corsa, generally in terms of cabin noise more than anything else. It was also auto so I could sit more comfortably than I normally would, as I didn't have to clutch.

The 6, I haven't travelled in, but the dashboard plastic is absolutely AWFUL. It's sporty and likely to be cheaper than either of the others as Mazdas for some reason drop in value like a lead balloon. Sporty though from what I hear

milltown

If comfort is king I'd say Passat as it's a bit more of a barge than the other two. I'm sure the Mazda is the unknown for most people. For comfort, make sure the BM is a saloon, the coupés came with sports suspension as standard, and I'd suggest wheels no bigger than 16". Any bigger and there is a big difference in both ride quality and road noise due to the lower profile tyres.

ballooba

Passat

gary the great

ninty9er wrote:

Passat's comfortable, but if a salesman feeds you the VW reliability crap, tell him you know just how unreliable they can be. The electrics in particular suffer from the 01 facelift onwards...

The 320's a driver's car, will probably be a stiffer ride as BMWs are made to be driver's cars. Not uncomfortable though. Drove a 316 the other day and it was quite comfortable compared to my Corsa, generally in terms of cabin noise more than anything else. It was also auto so I could sit more comfortably than I normally would, as I didn't have to clutch.

The 6, I haven't travelled in, but the dashboard plastic is absolutely AWFUL. It's sporty and likely to be cheaper than either of the others as Mazdas for some reason drop in value like a lead balloon. Sporty though from what I hear

I like the mazda (never been in the BMW), i think the dash is nice, suppose its a matter of opinion. Plus you get the Jap relaibility and you'll probably get a newer car with more toys for your money

_Kaiser_

Passat, but then I'm biased

Seriously though.. very comfortable, and good on fuel (€30 in diesel does me for the week including a 50 mile daily commute & other running around) but make sure you go for the 1.9 TDI (130 Bhp) version. Make sure the timing belt has been done as I gather it's an expensive/awkward job.

They're not perfect admittedly - I've had a few minor problems with mine - but overall I'm very happy with it and would buy another one.

pburns

I have a Mazda 6 and could recommend it. It's 3 years old and zero problems or niggles. You can't beat Jap reliability. The Bimmer would be a nice bus too. Wouldn't touch the Passat - a vastly overrated farmers' barge and as previously stated not nearly as reliable as some would have you believe.

If you have a bad back though it could be a bit of a black art deciding which more comfortable and impossible for anyone else to judge. To be honest I can't see any being more comfortable or having easier access than your current car. The Yaris is tall with big door openings - someone I know with a bad back drives one for this reason.

If good seats are important perhaps a Saab? They suffer big depreciation so may be more affordable than you think. French cars are renowned comfort but not reliability...

ballooba

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Make sure the timing belt has been done as I gather it's an expensive/awkward job.

Over €1,000 with a main dealer.

Whole engine needs to be taken out AFAIK.

defenstration

Cheers for all the help so far guys.

As far as my back is concerned, getting in and out of the car isn't the problem. The back isn't that bad. It's just after a long spin in the Yaris, my lower back tends to seize up. I would think myself that it's just the suspension isn't as good as it would be on a bigger heavier car, so every bump hits me hard. Then again, I know nothing about cars so I could be completely off the ball. But basically, short journeys are grand in the Yaris, it's just if I travelled for more than 40 mins for example, I'd feel the strain on the back afterwards.

milltown wrote:

If comfort is king I'd say Passat as it's a bit more of a barge than the other two. I'm sure the Mazda is the unknown for most people. For comfort, make sure the BM is a saloon, the coupés came with sports suspension as standard, and I'd suggest wheels no bigger than 16". Any bigger and there is a big difference in both ride quality and road noise due to the lower profile tyres.

Just noticed two things mentioned there - first is the size of the alloys. I'd obviously prefer to have alloys on the car but one or two Passats I've seen on carzone.ie seem to have pretty small alloys, definitely smaller than the regular size wheel on the Passat. Are you saying that a smaller wheel would actually mean better comfort because the body would be lower?
The other thing is the sports suspension - why would I need to stay away from that? And if so, would I then be better off staying away from the Mazda seeing as its more of a sporting model as well?

defenstration

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Passat, but then I'm biased

Seriously though.. very comfortable, and good on fuel (€30 in diesel does me for the week including a 50 mile daily commute & other running around) but make sure you go for the 1.9 TDI (130 Bhp) version. Make sure the timing belt has been done as I gather it's an expensive/awkward job.

They're not perfect admittedly - I've had a few minor problems with mine - but overall I'm very happy with it and would buy another one.

Why the 1.9 TDI? What has it got that the other models don't? I was actually hoping to stick with a petrol, but at the end of the day, not really bothered cos I heard the TDI kinda make up for the sluggish aspects of a diesel.

BrianD3

defenstration wrote:

Just noticed two things mentioned there - first is the size of the alloys. I'd obviously prefer to have alloys on the car but one or two Passats I've seen on carzone.ie seem to have pretty small alloys, definitely smaller than the regular size wheel on the Passat. Are you saying that a smaller wheel would actually mean better comfort because the body would be lower?
The other thing is the sports suspension - why would I need to stay away from that? And if so, would I then be better off staying away from the Mazda seeing as its more of a sporting model as well?

Bigger wheels will generally have lower profile tyres. Lower profile = less depth of rubber between the (solid) wheel and the road. Car may handle better but you may feel the bumps more and you're more likely to damage a wheel if you hit a pothole.

ballooba

defenstration wrote:

I'd obviously prefer to have alloys on the car but one or two Passats I've seen on carzone.ie seem to have pretty small alloys, definitely smaller than the regular size wheel on the Passat.

If they are the same as the alloys on my Passat then they are actually the same size as the steel wheels. 15" AFAIR.

defenstration wrote:

Why the 1.9 TDI? What has it got that the other models don't? I was actually hoping to stick with a petrol, but at the end of the day, not really bothered cos I heard the TDI kinda make up for the sluggish aspects of a diesel.

I had a TDI on loan for 4 weeks last year. It is a fair bit nippier than the 1.6 Petrol.

It depends what you are using it for. The only time mine struggles is when their is five adults in it. Other than that it's fine. Cruises comfortably at 80mph on the motorways.

galwaytt

you could rename your choice as

Passat/3-series/Mazda as
Will have to fix/might have to fix/what's a garage?

or
overpriced, complex systems/overpriced, poor spec/cheap-ish, but there is a sport version iirc.....

ninty9er

The uncle has a 1.6 Passat and it's relatively nippy, but not in 320 land or anything like that. Grand for most driving in This country, but wouldn't go overtaking on narrow country roads though.

Has caused him a few other problems though

ballooba

ninty9er wrote:

The uncle has a 1.6 Passat and it's relatively nippy, but not in 320 land or anything like that.

I had been looking at BMWs a few months back. 3 series specifically. was going to import a 3 series coupe but have now decided on a Toyota SUV.

I find BMWs in general to be way overpriced for what they are. My bro in law has a 2006 330d and it is in **** already. He had a 3 series coupe before that. His pride and joy, but it spent half the time back in Joe Duffy's. Personally I like the look of them and their unbelievable to drive but not worth the hassle.

galwaytt wrote:

you could rename your choice as

Passat/3-series/Mazda as
Will have to fix/might have to fix/what's a garage?

or
overpriced, complex systems/overpriced, poor spec/cheap-ish, but there is a sport version iirc......

I'm stumped on the complex systems, not sure what you mean. In terms of maintenance, not a problem. 15 months and nothing unusual.

Echo the Cheapish on the BMWs though.

nialler

Out of the 3 cars you mentioned Clarkson/May/Hammond unaminously agreed that the Mazda 6 was the car to get, japanese reliability, german build quality and quite sporty too.

plus it looks a lovely car.

milltown

The point I was making was, as BrianD3 said, the bigger wheels mean lower profile tyres (to keep the overall circumference the same) which means there is less cushioning air in the tyres to soak up small bumps and road imperfections.
My previous 3 saloon had 16" wheels and standard suspension and was lovely and smooth and still handled well. My current coupé has 17" wheels and sport suspension and I find the ride a bit harsh. It sticks to smooth roads but if the surface is rough I reckon the smaller wheels (softer tyres) and softer suspension would offer more grip.

defenstration

Well the chances are I'll be clocking up around 20,000 miles per year max in this car. And the vast majority of that would be on country roads rather than main roads or motorways. Would the BMW be good to hold up to those sorta conditions? The way I see it, the BMW is more of a businessman's car, where they'd be clocking up 50k miles in a year, travelling main roads most of the time. And as far as the Mazda is concerned, as soon as I see "sporty", I get to thinking that maybe this car might not be up for a bitta dirt and grime travelling the cowpaths of county Kilkenny!
So from that point of view, would the Passat be the best option, or am I just nitpicking here? Comfort on the cowpaths is what I'm after!

_Kaiser_

defenstration wrote:

Well the chances are I'll be clocking up around 20,000 miles per year max in this car. And the vast majority of that would be on country roads rather than main roads or motorways. Would the BMW be good to hold up to those sorta conditions? The way I see it, the BMW is more of a businessman's car, where they'd be clocking up 50k miles in a year, travelling main roads most of the time. And as far as the Mazda is concerned, as soon as I see "sporty", I get to thinking that maybe this car might not be up for a bitta dirt and grime travelling the cowpaths of county Kilkenny!
So from that point of view, would the Passat be the best option, or am I just nitpicking here? Comfort on the cowpaths is what I'm after!

Well I do most of my 20k in and around Meath and Dublin (though in the last month have been to Cork, Tralee and Laois) and the Passat handles it very well. After getting out of the car 3/4 hours later I wasn't sore or stiff at all.

The reason I suggested the 1.9 TDI was it's significantly cheaper to run than the petrol equivalent (I'd imagine - as I said my 1.3 petrol Mirage was going through about €45 a week before I bought the Passat), and powerful enough to handle the weight of the car itself (even fully loaded doesn't seem to phase it) and the distances/mileage involved.

Cyrus

buy a 6cyl petrol 3 series sport saloon and forget this 1.9tdi passat nonsense

Moanin

Doing 20k miles a year you definately warrant a diesel and go for the 1.9tdi passat.It's a very tough engine and will go for ever if serviced regularly.It's a small bit on the noisey side but plenty of poke from it.As suggested earlier on , try and get a 130bhp one

maidhc

Cyrus wrote:

buy a 6cyl petrol 3 series sport saloon and forget this 1.9tdi passat nonsense

No don't, buy a diesel that is cheap to run, and use your change to own a classic if you want something with a bit of personality.

Op: Go for the Mazda! Nice looking car that has aged well, and should be far more reliable than a Passat or BMW. They also come in diesel.

bazz26

maidhc wrote:

Op: Go for the Mazda! Nice looking car that has aged well, and should be far more reliable than a Passat or BMW. They also come in diesel.

I would second that. The Mazda 6 is the best value of the three mentioned here. Even the diesel is relatively cheap second hand, it is available in 2.0 litre 120bhp and 136bhp. The 136bhp version is very lively indeed.

defenstration

I'm kinda likin the Mazda 6 the more I think about it, and there's been very few bad things said about them here or on the other forums. One thing that was said though is that they don't hold their value very well. I was thinking about a Mondeo originally as well but when I compared how they held their value to how the Passats or BMWs held theirs, there was no contest. Would it be the same with a Mazda 6? It's hard to tell because they've only been out since 2002 as far as I can see. But when I judge the current price of a new Mazda (just under 30k) compared to a '02 model (around 11,800 average), and then compare that to the price of a new Passat (around 35k) vs a '02 Passat (around 13,500 average), the Passat will hold it's value better, but I doubt the Mazda's value will plummet completely?

Another thing is that the new Mazda 6 is meant to be out soon. Some say this summer, others say summer 2008. Does anyone know for sure? And does anyone know if that new model will be very different from the current model?

Lotta questions I know, don't expect them all to be answered but any help at all would be appreciated. Cheers.

bazz26

defenstration wrote:

I'm kinda likin the Mazda 6 the more I think about it, and there's been very few bad things said about them here or on the other forums. One thing that was said though is that they don't hold their value very well. I was thinking about a Mondeo originally as well but when I compared how they held their value to how the Passats or BMWs held theirs, there was no contest. Would it be the same with a Mazda 6? It's hard to tell because they've only been out since 2002 as far as I can see. But when I judge the current price of a new Mazda (just under 30k) compared to a '02 model (around 11,800 average), and then compare that to the price of a new Passat (around 35k) vs a '02 Passat (around 13,500 average), the Passat will hold it's value better, but I doubt the Mazda's value will plummet completely?

Another thing is that the new Mazda 6 is meant to be out soon. Some say this summer, others say summer 2008. Does anyone know for sure? And does anyone know if that new model will be very different from the current model?

Lotta questions I know, don't expect them all to be answered but any help at all would be appreciated. Cheers.

Prices of the old model Passat are dropping now that the new model is starting to find it's way onto the used market. Imo VWs in general seem to be overpriced due to the perception that they are the last word in reliability which is not the case anymore. They have as many if not more reliability issues as other makes, they just don't want to admit it. This perception keeps resale values overinflated as people are willing to pay extra for it. As the old Passat has been around since 1997 and has been replaced almost 2 years ago I doubt resale values will stay at such levels.

The new Mazda 6 is not expected until at least early next year and it is getting a bit bigger than the current model as it is based on the next Ford Mondeo platform. The current 6 is also based on the current Mondeo platform. As with any new model the resale value of the old model drops as people trade up and forecourts become full of them.

I think another thing to take into account is that you are buying a 4 to 5 year old car so even if you only keep it for 2 years it will still be 6 to 7 years old so resale value will be pretty weak anyway on either model as most people buying cars of this age are bargin hunters.

galwaytt

defenstration wrote:

And the vast majority of that would be on country roads rather than main roads or motorways. Would the BMW be good to hold up to those sorta conditions?

Front suspension bushes wear out, fact of life. 60-80k miles on the 3 series. Not expensive to fix (200, fitted iirc...), but just something you need to know.

That 6(?) jointed suspension system on the Passat (and A4/A6 too), is also prone to wear at the 60k mark. A full set of bushes, fitted, will cost you close to ...........1k (dealer, admittedly...). I had TT fail the NCT with worn ones at...........43k miles. I'm not saying don't buy it, just factor in the potential cost - i.e. knock it off the selling price. Also, (like all VAG products...) prone to eating MAF's, and the CAT can go, too.

Mazda - crumbs - no detail on that, but if it's anything like my MX5, the only thing you'll need is a new battery every XX years............

The way I see it, the BMW is more of a businessman's car, where they'd be clocking up 50k miles in a year, travelling main roads most of the time.

I find my sig is a fabulous driver's car, and I'm not a devotee, but it is good, so don't agree about the main road thing - takes to twisities very well indeed.......

And as far as the Mazda is concerned, as soon as I see "sporty", I get to thinking that maybe this car might not be up for a bitta dirt and grime travelling the cowpaths of county Kilkenny!

no idea why you'd think that, it will be fine.

So from that point of view, would the Passat be the best option, or am I just nitpicking here? Comfort on the cowpaths is what I'm after!

No, and yes, you are........ )

defenstration

Can anyone tell me what the ratio of money spent on petrol for a 1.8 litre petrol engine in a car like a Passat or a Mazda 6 vs a 2 litre diesel engine in a BMW 3-series. A fella I know has a 3-series diesel and says it's the best car he's ever had for being low on fuel consumption. I realise that petrol is more expensive than diesel, but then I have also been told that a diesel engine will not burn fuel as rapidly as a petrol engine. I'd prefer a petrol cos of less noise, but I don't want to be needlessly spending a fortune on petrol either, if the diesel engine would be a lot cheaper.
Hard to know how much mileage I'd be getting up. Chances are it would be somewhere between 12k and 15k per year. So if someone could give me some idea as to just how much more expensive a petrol engine would be compared to a diesel, let me know. Cheers.

Eoin

defenstration wrote:

Can anyone tell me what the ratio of money spent on petrol for a 1.8 litre petrol engine in a car like a Passat or a Mazda 6 vs a 2 litre diesel engine in a BMW 3-series. A fella I know has a 3-series diesel and says it's the best car he's ever had for being low on fuel consumption. I realise that petrol is more expensive than diesel, but then I have also been told that a diesel engine will not burn fuel as rapidly as a petrol engine. I'd prefer a petrol cos of less noise, but I don't want to be needlessly spending a fortune on petrol either, if the diesel engine would be a lot cheaper.
Hard to know how much mileage I'd be getting up. Chances are it would be somewhere between 12k and 15k per year. So if someone could give me some idea as to just how much more expensive a petrol engine would be compared to a diesel, let me know. Cheers.

It completely depends on the cars in question. I have a 3 series diesel, and only get about 42MPG or so, but not much of my mileage is on the motorway anymore.

Diesel is generally about 4 cents cheaper per litre, so that's only a saving of €2.40 if you put 60 litres into it (which is about the size of the fuel tank in mine). As you alluded to, it's really the difference between how far that gets you that is the main saving. A lot of people here seem to think that 20K miles per year is roughly where buying a diesel makes financial sense.

On the performance side, I find the engine a tiny bit rough sounding, but it is a great drive.

If comfort is a big factor for you, would you consider a 5 series? You'd probably get as new one for the same money as the 3 series.

Esel

ballooba wrote:

My bro in law has a 2006 330d and it is in **** already. He had a 3 series coupe before that. His pride and joy, but it spent half the time back in Joe Duffy's.

So why the fvck did he buy another BMW then? Anyone ever see a BMW taxi? I think that speaks volumes, tbh.

Cyrus

esel wrote:

So why the fvck did he buy another BMW then? Anyone ever see a BMW taxi? I think that speaks volumes, tbh.

i have actually, plenty, whats your point? People have this idea that taxi drivers are these uber wise sages who know the secrets of good cars,

they dont, they buy cheap reliable diesels, but who wants them

not i!

maidhc

Cyrus wrote:

i have actually, plenty, whats your point? People have this idea that taxi drivers are these uber wise sages who know the secrets of good cars,

Its interesting all the same.

When I was in Berlin a few months back I asked a taxi driver there why no BMWs and all Mercs. I didn't really understand the reply but it was something like "BMW bad taxi".

In Germany I suspect is the cost, and the fact MB have modified E and R class cars for the taxi market. I have always wondered why there are so few BMW taxis in Ireland, when we now have things as diverse as an S-Class and A6 Quattro on the streets in Cork.

Eoin

I've also seen a good few BMW taxis, but a good few of the taxis I see are nasty 10 year old + Japanese yokes. Does that "speak volumes tbh"?

I think the 3 series is too small to be a taxi, the rear bench isn't comfortable for 3 passengers, and the boot isn't a great size. You'd be doing well to fit more than 2 suitcases in there. The 5 series is a better size, but pretty thirsty. I don't know about the 525tds, but the 530D commands high prices still, so not a good deal for a taxi driver.

I wouldn't use whether or not a taxi driver uses a car for his daily ride as a gauge for how good a car is.

ballooba

esel wrote:

So why the fvck did he buy another BMW then?

Simple, because he has more money than sense.