CIE group grants / subsidies

Victor

What do they get and how is it calculated?

OTK

don't know if I'm reading this correctly but the 2005 annual report shows
revenue from fares etc of 704.5m
public service obligation grant 270.1m
railway safety investment program 13.3m
capex 289m
'revenue support grants' 3.7m

total current grants: 283.4m
total grants: 576.1

Victor

public service obligation grant 270.1m
railway safety investment program 13.3m
capex 289m
'revenue support grants' 3.7m

So how did someone come up with each of thsoe figures and how it was shared out?

OTK

I think the new reports for 2006 are due any day now.

All the figures are in the annual reports for the subsidiary companies. Because it's good friday I've done it for you:

current grant: (ie/db/be) 180/65/25.2

capital grant: (ie/db/be) 267/10.6/3.8

special payment (ml for smc) 1m

Victor

Ah, slgihtly crossed wires.

What I want to know is how much they get for accpetings say, Social Welfare passes, how much for uneconomic social services and so on. Or is it a matter of "We have X, you can have Y"?

AlekSmart

Victor,your hypothetical question re the amount paid to cover Social Welfare travel is enough to get you barred from any Department of Transport functions for life !

Take the recent extension of the "Free Travel" into NOrthern Ireland.
When Seamus Brennan took over in Social Welfare he made some grand utterances concerning the harmonization of Free-Travel on both sides of the Land Frontier.

At several points we were assured that the details were being worked out by officials and announcements were imminent etc.

Well Whaddya Know....it took a little longer than we expected and look at what we got.

ROI OAP Pass holder ONLY can travel free in NI.
ROI OAP MUST acquire a Smart Pass.

So Old Mr Brennan`s intimation that the ENTIRE Republic of Ireland Free Travel entitlement was simply going to materialize on Translink`s books turned out to be wishful thinking in extremis.

Why....?

Largely because Translink and the NI Office operate on a far more "Commercial" level in regard to Concessionary Travel than our Administrators could ever comprehend.

I would be prepared to wager that in 12 months time,should you wish Victor,you will be able to request and recieve a detailed breakdown of EVERY ROI Social Welfare pass holder who utilized their "right" to travel free on NI services.

Similarly should you request that info from our own authorities you will recieve lots of "Approx`s" and "Estimations" etc.

Victor.....The NI authorities saw the words Black and Hole and realized just what a turkey they were being sold and the result is what we see today...........How much does it cost..??
"Ah will ye go on outa dat,sure`n who worries about them things anymore" :eek:

Victor

I'm more worried of the precedent of allowing people use passes at peak times - Social Welfare (not Transport) should be paying for premium seats.

OTK

Victor wrote:

Ah, slgihtly crossed wires.

What I want to know is how much they get for accpetings say, Social Welfare passes, how much for uneconomic social services and so on. Or is it a matter of "We have X, you can have Y"?

There is some discussion of this in a recent joint transport committee meeting

The mechanism being used by the Department with regard to providing greater clarity to the payment of subventions consists of a memorandum of understanding which tries to explicitly identify what services are being purchased by the State from the three co-operating companies of CIE and what is being received for its payments. We have identified certain targets in respect of those PSOs and have asked the companies to meet them. That is an ongoing process. The PSO imposed on CIE, which is statutory under the Transport Act 1950 and Transport Act (Reorganisation of Córas Iompair Éireann) Act 1986, requires it to have regard to these social obligations. While the obligations may not necessarily be route specific, there are variety of ways by which they can be measured.

I don't know how the public would get to see this memorandum of understanding. (It might be available from DoT or CIE or you might try to invoke FOI.)

MarkoP11

I have copies of the 2004, 2005 and 2006 IE Memorandum of understanding and it doesn't contain any of that

Yes you can get it through FoI through the DoT but in reality its not worth the time since its a worthless document and if you go looking they will charge you every single cent possible

AlekSmart

Nail on Head time Victor.
It should be remembered that when Luas commenced operations the Dept of SW`s initial response was to REDUCE Dublin Bus`s "Free Travel" payment.

The Dept`s reasoning was that the modal shift from Bus to Tram meant DB would be en easy target for cost reduction.

It was only after some serious table thumping that the Dept was prevailed upon to slightly increase the TOTAL "Free-Travel" allocation.

What the DSFA continually fail to acknowledge,perhaps through ignorance or incompetence,is that with the continuing adoption of "Easy Access" features on Public Transport the percentage of elderly or mobility impaired passengers is increasing quite rapidly.

Living as we do in one of the few remaining bastions of "Free" stuff we tend to get a bit shirty when anybody asks "Who`s paying for this FREE journey" and the availibility of concrete financial figures is quite minimal should anybody attempt to do a true costing excercise.

However I believe the Northern Ireland Office`s insistance on a verifiable modern methodology before allowing the Republican Hordes "Free" access to their Public Transport system will eventually force our administrators to sharpen up our antiquated system.

The current situation on the Mainland (UK) is also worth studying.
The UK Government is pressing ahead with the introduction of "FREE" Travel on a National Basis.
The responsibility for funding this extension lies with the local authorities who issue the Passes.
This hugely increased demand without any commensurate increase in Central Funding is causing serious problems all across the UK with many operators seeking major INCREASES in other Fares to compensate for the increased FREE element.
The first victims have been Students,Discounted Off Peak Ticketing,and cross-subsidised lower fares in socially required services.

If you keep pulling at this thread here Victor,you may well get a late night knock upon your window pane !!!! :eek:

It`s also worth noting that the current situation with the Memorandum of Understanding is that the CIE group are disputing the Departmental methodloogy in several areas.
It appears that in relation to Road Passenger services the MOU does NOT make any allowances for disruption due to such issues as Traffic Congestion,Local Authority Ineptitude,Infrastructural Failure etc...
The closure of O Connell St on Easter Sunday would be a prime example or for that matter the construction of the Dublin Port Tunnell.......

MarkoP11

What I think Victor is getting at is three fold

1. Why is there no entry in the accounts marked, Payment from Dept of Social Welfare with respect of free travel scheme, is it in the ticket revenue sum or in the PSO, either way its hidden

2. How do the operators determine the cost of the scheme and do they get a cheque with the amount they want or does the DoT simply say this is what you are getting, can't see Veoila taking that

3. How is the subsidy calculated

Victor

Pretty much. If granny (sorry for stereotyping) gets on the bus and the driver presses the button for DSW Pass (or whatever the button is) or someone gets a ticket for a train with their pass, how does this feed through as a payment?

Zoney

I'm in favour of the free transport provisions - I think the peak-time embargo there was until recently was ridiculous - but I also think that for the good of our transport system and sensible operation of it, all such journeys taken should be costed to the relevant dept. (social welfare) - not just sucked up by Transport.

And how on earth can you sensibly plan things either (like extending free transport provision) if you don't do this? You can't even use figures to say "this is how much we are spending on these people - we aren't ignoring them".

lostexpectation

Victor wrote:

I'm more worried of the precedent of allowing people use passes at peak times - Social Welfare (not Transport) should be paying for premium seats.

premiun seats? there isn't such a thing on irish public travel even at peak time

shltter

lostexpectation wrote:

premiun seats? there isn't such a thing on irish public travel even at peak time

I think what Victor meant was that a seat at 8 in the morning is more valuable than one at 11 in the morning.


As far as I know in relation to DB there is not a direct correlation between the number of times the DSW button is pressed and the payment that DB receives drivers are encouraged to record all SW journeys by pressing the button but as far as I know DB just receives a lump sum each year

What that lump sum is as Alek has pointed could get you in to trouble for even asking
I suggest that this thread is locked now and we never speak of this again.

shltter

Zoney wrote:

And how on earth can you sensibly plan things either (like extending free transport provision) if you don't do this? .

PLAN

Have you any idea what country you are living in?

We don't need any plan aren't thing working just fine as they are

Victor

shltter wrote:

As far as I know in relation to DB there is not a direct correlation between the number of times the DSW button is pressed and the payment that DB receives drivers are encouraged to record all SW journeys by pressing the button but as far as I know DB just receives a lump sum each year

Did you not see THE memo?

AlekSmart

One of the least mentioned aspects of the "Privatize It Now" crusade is that if the original Progresssive Democrat inspired plans for Public Transport were to be introduced then the "Free Travel Scheme" as we currently know it is Dead.

As Shllter has pointed out the methodology surrounding the payment to Dublin Bus is based upon a Lump Sum.
This figure is usually arrived at each year during a series of high level meetings where Dublin Bus produces its figures which proport to account for DSFA Customer Journies.
These figures are an eclectic mixture of Wayfarer tallies and of independent observations carried out on behalf of the company by market rersearch companies.
However since the actual Pass itself is perhaps the most forger-friendly document in existance,the opportunity for "slippage" is ever present.

The late Michael McDonnell was the first Chairman of CIE to actually begin to take an active interest in the reality of what this Free Travel was costing.

It was Mr McDonnell who instigated the fiscally sensible policy of each DSFA Free Pass holder being required to actually acquire a Ticket upon production of their Pass.
This simple expedient opened many eyes and I believe would have been extended further throughout the CIE group were it not for Mr McDonnell`s sad and untimely death.
With the ever increasing and largely uncontrolled expansion of the Bus and Coach travel market the DSFA is now going to face ever greater presure on its "Free-Travel Scheme" budget.

I firmly believe that if the CIE companies do not move to quantify and seek adequate remuneration for its "Free-Travel" liabilities then the entire "Free-Travel" scheme is at risk.

However in an election year one can be fairly sure that no politician will attempt to reduce or eliminate any free beer and crisps even if the funding to maintain it has to comefrom some equally deserving administrative area.