Cricket: 'Minnows' can never improve under this pompous eliteist system

darkman2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/counties/ireland/6520335.stm


Kind of sums it up I think. Its impossible to get into Cricket in a country like this because the sport's powers that be across the water have it finely nailed down as to how to keep the minnows in their place. I find the eliteist and pompous attitude ive heard over the last few weeks from the media and others completely asstounding. So they have it well tuned obviously on how to keep the minnows down yet through a highly dubious system of qualifying to play test cricket nick our players while they are at it. Cricket will remain at the bottom of the pecking order here and tbh I think it should stay that way and let the pompous, arrogant, eliteist ar*eholes keep their closed shop:mad:

rockbeer

It's easy to accuse England of 'nicking' O'Brien - but you should remember a few things:
- No-one is twisting his or Ed Joyce's arm. They're at liberty to keep playing for Ireland if they want, but they naturally enough want to play at the highest level.
- There's no guarantee he or anyone will be selected for England - he's taking a big risk. In Ireland he's a big fish in a small pond - In England his abilities will be far more exposed. That takes guts, which is worthy of respect.
- Ireland has almost no grass-roots cricket. It's absurd to suggest they should be given an automatic right to compete at the top level. There is a huge gulf in class. If you knew anything about the game, you'd know that even a country like Bangladesh where cricket is a way of life has faced a major struggle to be competitive at the top level. That isn't because of anyone trying to keep them down - it just reflects the reality of the difference in standard between first class and test cricket. It does no-one any favours if new test teams are constantly exposed and outclassed. Would you argue that San Marino should have an automatic right to play at the soccer world cup finals on the same basis? They have to qualify. All sport requires some form of qualification to attain the highest standards.

Ireland doesn't even have a first class structure - maybe Irish cricket supporters should work on putting that in place rather than bleating about the lack of opportunity and blaming other countries for some kind of cricketing imperialism. The ICC has poured money into Irish cricket. I'm not saying everything is well in the ICC, but for you to accuse England of some sort of plot to 'keep Irish cricket down' stinks of paranoia. You should remind yourself that nobody gave a damn about cricket here until the world cup. Now suddenly on the back of one significant one-day victory everyone wants to play at test level. Get real.

Anyway, despite all you say, Ireland is still improving, isn't it? Didn't notice them at the last world cup.

mikeruurds

There was a mention of Nic Pothas in that article as being a future prospect for England wicket keeper.

Aargh! That'll make it 3 South Africans in the England squad :mad:

Economic migrants, the lot of them! [BTW - I'm Dutch & South African ]

Mike

DMC

The lack of a first class system here need to be addressed, but how?

I have a suggestion. Look towards rugby.

Rugby isn't that huge here, still 3rd (or 4th). Its not played in vast swathes of the country at club or school levels, but the structures stand up to scrutiny.

Here is what I reckon..

1. Similar to rugby, investigate if it can be semi-professional at local union level. NCU, LCU and NWCU for a start.
2. Look towards Scotland and the Netherlands, and possibly Canada about setting up a "Magners League" type structure, weather it be one-day or 3 day, between the local unions.
3. Look for a TV contract. Only with continued exposure can the game grow here, Setanta would be an ideal partner, even TG4 (they had the Celtic League before Setanta did) Twenty20 games between the local Unions need to be televised. But also, heed the warning of not being totally dependent on TV money.

Thoughts are welcome.

rockbeer

Interesting stuff DMC - Rugby is an excellent parallel. Although I think it's helped by its history of achievement whereas Irish cricket has virtually no tradition to fall back on. This is more important than it sounds - it means there is a background of accomplishment in coaching, management etc. and an expectation of being competitive. I think it will take time for cricket to come up to the same level.

I do agree that some kind of ongoing competitive league between the second-tier countries would be an excellent idea. For it to be a meaningful step towards test status it would have to be four or five day cricket. More one-day games won't prepare anyone to run in to bowl at Hayden and (assuming they knock one over early) Ponting on the first morning of five at the Gabba or play an 8-hour rearguard innings on a Chennai turner to save the game.

In the end it depends whether there is enough interest. I suspect everyone will forget all about cricket once Wimbledon rolls around, and we'll be swiftly back to two men and a dog huddling under their dripping brollies on a wet Saturday afternoon in Clontarf.

Oh, and one other thing about the English stealing top Irish players... I haven't notice too many folk complaining about the Irish soccer team 'stealing' all those English players with Irish grannies. Amazing how some people want it both ways. I'm looking forward to the campaign for the axing of the traitors Johnston, Botha, Bray and Langford-Smith from the Irish wc squad.

DMC

rockbeer wrote:

Interesting stuff DMC - Rugby is an excellent parallel. Although I think it's helped by its history of achievement whereas Irish cricket has virtually no tradition to fall back on. This is more important than it sounds - it means there is a background of accomplishment in coaching, management etc. and an expectation of being competitive. I think it will take time for cricket to come up to the same level.

No doubt cricket will take time, but its also worth remembering that rugby is only professional 12 years worldwide, so, the professional structures are only in place a relatively short time.

We have the ICC Intercontinental Cup for the second level countries, but I do feel that between provincial sides, like NCU v Glasgow or LCU v Rotterdam, a tournament or league should be investigated.

My point is, our first class level must not be just the national side. Otherwise we'll still be the plucky underdogs.

TrueDub

I'd agree with Rockbeer and DMC here - we need to set up a decent competitive structure first, then worry about test status later. Realistically, the test status concept is a non-starter, and I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, and I'm only 35 (that *is* young! :mad: )

Don't forget, before this World Cup we were minnows even in county cricket - I saw a side very similar to the one that tied with Zim & beat Pakistan get a hiding in Lord's last year.

There's a lot of debate in Irish cricket circles about the Inter-provincials. To most people they seem to be the way to go to provide "the best playing against the best". With Ireland being divided into 4 cricketing unions - Leinster, Munster, Northern and North West - there is a variation in standard and in ground availability. However, fixture lists are very crowded with games already, and the inter-pros haven't taken place for some years.

We need the ICU to provide leadership on this, something they've been poor at doing for a while. Once this competition beds in and becomes the stepping stone to the national side, we could then consider whether to go down the rugby road of using the provinces as "super-clubs".

rockbeer

DMC wrote:

My point is, our first class level must not be just the national side. Otherwise we'll still be the plucky underdogs.

Yes that's my point to. It couldn't be sustainable on that basis.

I hope a few others come along and throw some ideas around. There is potential here, but I think people need to be realistic about the possibilities and start from where we are not where we'd like to be.

DMC

TrueDub wrote:

I'd agree with Rockbeer and DMC here - we need to set up a decent competitive structure first, then worry about test status later. Realistically, the test status concept is a non-starter, and I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, and I'm only 35 (that *is* young! :mad: )

I would rule out test status, in the form of playing Australia as regularly as they play Bangladesh. IIRC, Zimbabwe have only played one test series in Australia in the 15 years they have been a test side, and Matthew Hayden scored 380. A second division test championship, where the winners get test status for an ICC test cycle (6 years) is worth getting.

But, as TrueDub and Rockbeer agree with me, get our own house in order. Develop what we have. We have successful under age sides. We need the structures for the senior sides.

TrueDub wrote:

There's a lot of debate in Irish cricket circles about the Inter-provincials. To most people they seem to be the way to go to provide "the best playing against the best". With Ireland being divided into 4 cricketing unions - Leinster, Munster, Northern and North West - there is a variation in standard and in ground availability. However, fixture lists are very crowded with games already, and the inter-pros haven't taken place for some years.

We need the ICU to provide leadership on this, something they've been poor at doing for a while. Once this competition beds in and becomes the stepping stone to the national side, we could then consider whether to go down the rugby road of using the provinces as "super-clubs".

Totally agree with that. As I'm not a member of a club here, TrueDub, maybe you can tell me is it the case that the clubs have all the leverage in the ICU and the provincial unions? If that is the case, we'd be like the English RFU... fecked. The ICU has a new CEO, Warren Deutrom, and I hope he is a leader who can do the work necessary.

Steibhin

rockbeer wrote:

Oh, and one other thing about the English stealing top Irish players... I haven't notice too many folk complaining about the Irish soccer team 'stealing' all those English players with Irish grannies.

I don't think either Ed Joyce or O'Brien have and English grannies or any English blood in them unlike those Soccer players. Also the difference is that we are not taking their best players. Kilbane would never start for England in a million years. The situation regarding cricket is more analogous to the movement of rugby players from the South Pacific Islands to New Zealand.

Personally I think that there should be a rule like in Soccer where once you declare for a country you cannot change. I think it is ridiculous that Ed Joyce was playing against the team he helped qualify for the tournament. If cricket doesn't tie down its nationalities than it will end up being like Club Soccer which is an entertaining but ultimately empty vessel.

TrueDub

DMC wrote:

Totally agree with that. As I'm not a member of a club here, TrueDub, maybe you can tell me is it the case that the clubs have all the leverage in the ICU and the provincial unions? If that is the case, we'd be like the English RFU... fecked. The ICU has a new CEO, Warren Deutrom, and I hope he is a leader who can do the work necessary.

It's hard to know who has the power where, to be honest. In the LCU (the only one I know anything about) there are mulitple committees, all of whom make up rules, and there seems to be very little joined-up thinking. Rather than the power being vested in the clubs (as the structure implies), it's actually vested in several individuals who serve on these committees.

To be fair, though, each of these individuals is re-elected every year at the AGM, because nobody else is prepared to the do the work, so I can't really complain that they make a bags of it if I'm not prepared to get in & do it myself...

As regards the ICU, it's a fairly toothless body. There's a grand committee structure too, which wields most of the power, and (so far) the CEO has been more like an office manager than a visionary leader. There has also been no "vision" to implement, as everything has been concentrated on competing in World Cup 2007. The old CEO was a pleasant amiable bloke, but appeared useless at the job. I have heard some horror stories which I can't repeat here for libel reasons.

Mr Deutrom (new CEO) should be different - I hope. What we need is for someone to produce a vision and development plan for Irish cricket, then take command of the structures at national level and gear everything towards building a proper structure for the top-level game. However, this would involve the provincial unions ceding a lot of their power to the ICU. Every hear of a turkey voting for Christmas?

Endurance Man

4 years in this country, and every single time i have mentioned cricket to anyone iv had the same response - "Its crap" in simple terms.
Hate to say it but i do believe you're fighting a loosing battle, with a population as small as it is, and that mentality sweeping maybe 80% of them. The chances of finding 15-16 Test Level cricketers is not high.

DMC

Endurance Man wrote:

4 years in this country, and every single time i have mentioned cricket to anyone iv had the same response - "Its crap" in simple terms.
Hate to say it but i do believe you're fighting a loosing battle, with a population as small as it is, and that mentality sweeping maybe 80% of them. The chances of finding 15-16 Test Level cricketers is not high.

I've been totally surprised in the last month how that attitude has changed somewhat. Its been a shock to the system, I can tell you!

DMC

TrueDub wrote:

It's hard to know who has the power where, to be honest. In the LCU (the only one I know anything about) there are mulitple committees, all of whom make up rules, and there seems to be very little joined-up thinking. Rather than the power being vested in the clubs (as the structure implies), it's actually vested in several individuals who serve on these committees.

To be fair, though, each of these individuals is re-elected every year at the AGM, because nobody else is prepared to the do the work, so I can't really complain that they make a bags of it if I'm not prepared to get in & do it myself...

Sounds like your common or garden Fianna Fail cumman.

TrueDub wrote:

As regards the ICU, it's a fairly toothless body. There's a grand committee structure too, which wields most of the power, and (so far) the CEO has been more like an office manager than a visionary leader. There has also been no "vision" to implement, as everything has been concentrated on competing in World Cup 2007. The old CEO was a pleasant amiable bloke, but appeared useless at the job. I have heard some horror stories which I can't repeat here for libel reasons.

Well, its time to concentrate minds, otherwise, we've just had the biggest fluke ever.

TrueDub wrote:

Mr Deutrom (new CEO) should be different - I hope. What we need is for someone to produce a vision and development plan for Irish cricket, then take command of the structures at national level and gear everything towards building a proper structure for the top-level game. However, this would involve the provincial unions ceding a lot of their power to the ICU. Every hear of a turkey voting for Christmas?

If the turkeys knew that the cranberry sauce was nice.... who knows!
Its worth remembering that the provincial rugby sides are fairly autonomous, with the IRFU holding the purse strings.

rockbeer

Steibhin wrote:

I don't think either Ed Joyce or O'Brien have and English grannies or any English blood in them unlike those Soccer players. Also the difference is that we are not taking their best players. Kilbane would never start for England in a million years. The situation regarding cricket is more analogous to the movement of rugby players from the South Pacific Islands to New Zealand.

Personally I think that there should be a rule like in Soccer where once you declare for a country you cannot change. I think it is ridiculous that Ed Joyce was playing against the team he helped qualify for the tournament. If cricket doesn't tie down its nationalities than it will end up being like Club Soccer which is an entertaining but ultimately empty vessel.

I take your point that it's not an exact analogy. Nonetheless, it's not as though Ed or Niall O'Brien were kidnapped in some dastardly ECB plot and forced into England kit before being dragged out kicking and screaming to play for them. I think it's one of those issues where individuals make their choices, and every country takes advantage of the rules as it suits them. I've little sympathy for people complaining about cricketers defecting unless they apply the same standards the other way round.

I agree that the rules should be re-examined. However, it's a delicate situation because cricket is full of historical anomalies. I mean, the West Indies isn't even a country. It's barely a coherent geographical region. On that basis, maybe Ireland, Scotland, Canada & the Netherlands could combine to form a viable test side (The North Atlantic Noobies ? ). Or the same idea with Kenya, Zimbabwe and Uganda...

I think no-one's too keen to stir up the pot on this as it would lead to some politically unacceptable conclusions regarding the way 'international' cricket's been organized for nearly a century. Imagine if strict nationality requirements were enforced - what administrator would be prepared to go down in history as the person who oversaw the final destruction of cricket in the Caribbean?

TrueDub

Endurance Man wrote:

4 years in this country, and every single time i have mentioned cricket to anyone iv had the same response - "Its crap" in simple terms.
Hate to say it but i do believe you're fighting a loosing battle, with a population as small as it is, and that mentality sweeping maybe 80% of them. The chances of finding 15-16 Test Level cricketers is not high.

We are never going to challenge the big 3 of soccer, rugby and gaelic games. We could potentially become the "best of the rest", but when you're dealing with a niche sport, which is what we are, you're competing for attention with a lot of other things.

The "cricket's crap and boring" brigade exist the world over, even in such cricketing hothouses as Australia and South Africa. Here in Ireland it's more due to lack of exposure than anything else, along with the attitude that drives me insane: "bloody west brit game". I'd love to get someone who thinks that to spend 10 minutes inside the North County 1st XI dressing room...

However there are a large number of people who exist in what I call the "cricketing closet" - they like the game, but don't admit to it because it's unfashionable. They are our target market, not the die-hard opposition.

Every weekend you'll find some top-level cricket going on in Leinster, in a swathe of the city from Ballsbridge to Rush. People need to realise they can, in general, just walk into a club and see the best quality cricket on offer, for free. It's also incumbent on the clubs themselves to make people welcome, and not intimidate them.

This is a problem for me, as my club is in the Phoenix Park, and can attract some "colourful" characters. We've had handbags robbed and cars stolen because of these people, and naturally we're a little gun-shy of people just wandering around. This doesn't stop us welcoming genuine cricket fans though, so if you're around Phoenix on a match day, drop in & say hello.

TrueDub

rockbeer wrote:

I take your point that it's not an exact analogy. Nonetheless, it's not as though Ed or Niall O'Brien were kidnapped in some dastardly ECB plot and forced into England kit before being dragged out kicking and screaming to play for them. I think it's one of those issues where individuals make their choices, and every country takes advantage of the rules as it suits them. I've little sympathy for people complaining about cricketers defecting unless they apply the same standards the other way round.

I agree that the rules should be re-examined. However, it's a delicate situation because cricket is full of historical anomalies. I mean, the West Indies isn't even a country. It's barely a coherent geographical region. On that basis, maybe Ireland, Scotland, Canada & the Netherlands could combine to form a viable test side (The North Atlantic Noobies ? ). Or the same idea with Kenya, Zimbabwe and Uganda...

I think no-one's too keen to stir up the pot on this as it would lead to some politically unacceptable conclusions regarding the way 'international' cricket's been organized for nearly a century. Imagine if strict nationality requirements were enforced - what administrator would be prepared to go down in history as the person who oversaw the final destruction of cricket in the Caribbean?

Fact 1: Ireland will not, at any reasonably close stage, be playing test cricket.

Fact 2: We are producing some young players with the talent to make their living in the professional arena.

Fact 3: These young players will want to test themselves at the highest level possible.

Conclusion: we will continue to lose players from the Irish national side to England for the forseeable future.

Unless the ICC have a leap of imagination (stop laughing at the back!) and allow players to play ODIs for Ireland and tests for England, this is going to be the way things are.

Final fact: If I had the talent of Ed Joyce, I'd do exactly the same as he's done.

Marshy

Yeah I remember Kenya made the semis of the last WC and that started talk of them being granted test status. But nothing has materialised on that front. In fact they havent even had one dayers against the best sides. The ICC are probably wary these days having seen bangladesh wait an age for a first win.

I think regular ODIs against the top nations is the best that the likes of Ireland can hope for. But I dont really see that happening with schedules already clogged up.

mikeruurds

Endurance Man wrote:

4 years in this country, and every single time i have mentioned cricket to anyone iv had the same response - "Its crap" in simple terms.
Hate to say it but i do believe you're fighting a loosing battle, with a population as small as it is, and that mentality sweeping maybe 80% of them. The chances of finding 15-16 Test Level cricketers is not high.

It disappoints me to say it, but I've had the same experience here. I'm hoping that the mindset will change though.

rockbeer

mikeruurds wrote:

It disappoints me to say it, but I've had the same experience here. I'm hoping that the mindset will change though.

Strangely enough I've had a more positive response. I managed to injure my knee going for a quick single down in Waterford last summer. Had to see a bunch of consultants and their assorted receptionists, nurses, physios etc... Nearly everyone seemed to be more interested in how I got the injury than in sorting it out. I especially remember a half hour consultation with a knee specialist down in Blackrock. It cost me €80 - and I spent 25 minutes of the time I was paying for answering his questions about cricket

is_that_so

There is also a blog on the BBC which looks at this as well.
Under current circumstances can't see much change , but given the success of getting to the World Cup I'd imagine it may be able to get some more Lotto funding.

thebaz

something similar is sweeping through crickets elitist cousin, rugby, with the postponement of the Heineken Cup . i kind of wishfully hoped both sports had shaken of their elitism, but obviously i was wrong . Meanwhile soccer will continue to grow globally , while cricket and rugby stay the preserve of the big 5. If i was good eneogh to play for Ireland or England , i'd always choose Ireland ... loyalty seams to have gone in the professional era !

TrueDub

thebaz wrote:

something similar is sweeping through crickets elitist cousin, rugby, with the postponement of the Heineken Cup . i kind of wishfully hoped both sports had shaken of their elitism, but obviously i was wrong . Meanwhile soccer will continue to grow globally , while cricket and rugby stay the preserve of the big 5. If i was good eneogh to play for Ireland or England , i'd always choose Ireland ... loyalty seams to have gone in the professional era !

I can understand why you make this point about loyalty, but I think you misunderstand the idea behind declaring for England. If you talk to Ed (or indeed Eoin, Niall or Boyd) he'll tell you that he's not doing it for the money. To be honest, county cricketers, even England cricketers, don't make huge amounts of money, especially if you compare it to the footballers. It's about finding out if you're good enough, about challenging yourself to play at the highest level. Guys with this sort of talent want to see what their boundaries are.

mikeruurds

I wouldn't compare Ed's choice to play for Ireland with the likes of KP.

Ed is a good cricketer and plays cricket professionally. Playing at the highest level would be the goal of any pro sportsperson and to do that he had to sign up to play for England. I'm sure that if Ireland played as much ODI and Test cricket as the top 8 then he would still be playing for them.

South Africans play for England for different reasons. I don't mind that either. What I do mind is when they badmouth the country's team or ruling body/system in the process after they've turned their back on it.

Good luck to Ed and Eoin, Niall, Boyd etc. - I'm sure there will be more from the current crop of Irish players that will play for the English team... they need all the help they can get It seems their one South African isn't enough to win them the trophy (just kidding)!

Mike

thebaz

Whilst i'm no cricket expert, played a small bit, but a keen all round sportman, player and fan, i still think Ed Joyce must have fealt weird playing for England against Ireland in the World Cup, i know i sure would. If O'Brien , Morgan and our best declare for England, then the irish team and interst is ruined. I think it is good for the sport if it grows internationally, with the likes of Bangladesh coming through, and Sri Lanka have now become an established power. Growth is good. Maybe they could change the rules that would allow the establishment of a Britiosh and Irish lions style test team

thebaz

as a follow on , to my Lions theory, with Wales and Glamorgan strong in cricket, should Wales not be at the World Cup ?

DMC

The cricket organisation is officially called the England and Wales Cricket Board, but its just initialized to ECB.

Endurance Man

Lol, the south africans come play county crcket in England for the money .

gbh

We can't blame our cricket situation all on outside forces. For decades there was a ban on Gaelic players playing or watching 'foreign sports'. If it wasn't for that ban and the insular views of the GAA and other extablishment institutions then I'm sure we would have played more cricket in Ireland. Generally Cricket has been restricted until recently to Protestants. So already 90% of the population were ruled out, mainly because of the ban.
So that must have had some impact.