Min-raising,

phantom_lord

I never do this: but surely there must be good spots for it?


Does anyone (of the non donks around here!) do this? and in what spots?

phantom_lord

that was a bit vague.

I mean is there any specific spots where min-raising is the most effective play?

I read on 2+2 they sometimes say min raise on the flop with a set or whatever to build the pot for the rest of the hand etc

And then sometime's it's recommended when one is on a draw to get a free turn card, cause most people check after being min raised?

Then of course, if min-raise=set to a lot of people, then it's a really cheap way to set up a bluff?

What about on the river, where someone likely doens't have a hand that they'll call a raise with, min raising might be good, cause I dunno about other people but I can't fold, even tho I know I'm beat!

eg, a few mins ago. I actually was gonna check/call this river, meh.

PokerStars Game #9252868968: Tournament #46771813, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/04/04 - 18:39:40 (ET)
Table '46771813 13' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: flynns5 (5625 in chips) 
Seat 2: beachgirl20 (5010 in chips) 
Seat 3: Jura 55 (4400 in chips) 
Seat 4: mclane39 (9275 in chips) 
Seat 5: All Donk (11630 in chips) 
Seat 6: oldmongoo$e (11030 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: Mrmojos (5080 in chips) 
Seat 8: ChrysG (9915 in chips) 
Seat 9: bluefelix (4020 in chips) 
oldmongoo$e: posts small blind 10
Mrmojos: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to flynns5 [Ah Kc]
ChrysG: calls 20
bluefelix: folds 
flynns5: raises 60 to 80
beachgirl20: folds 
Jura 55: folds 
mclane39: calls 80
All Donk: folds 
oldmongoo$e: folds 
Mrmojos: calls 60
ChrysG: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [As 3s 7d]
Mrmojos: checks 
ChrysG: checks 
flynns5: bets 240
mclane39: calls 240
Mrmojos: folds 
ChrysG: folds 
*** TURN *** [As 3s 7d] [3h]
flynns5: checks 
mclane39: checks 
*** RIVER *** [As 3s 7d 3h] [Jd]
flynns5: bets 600
mclane39: raises 600 to 1200
flynns5: calls 600
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mclane39: shows [3d 3c] (four of a kind, Threes)
flynns5: mucks hand 
mclane39 collected 3210 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3210 | Rake 0 
Board [As 3s 7d 3h Jd]

Ste05

I'm too drunk to explain fully right now, but I basically never do it, but some people on 2+2 who I have huge respect for have talked about it, and it is basically about slowly bleeding opponents, I'll explain better in the morning if this thread is bumped. But I think there are certainly spots when the min raise is OK. Although I've come across them so infrequently I've kinda forgotten about them.

But doing it for the right reasons can be fine, once it's not, "well I have to raise but I don't want him to fold, so...............feck............OK... MIN-RAISE!!!

ianmc38

I think it can be good when used in the right situation.

phantom_lord

ianmc38 wrote:

I think it can be good when used in the right situation.

but when's the right situation?

Mellor

Grinding chips in a heads up STT. Early stages against weak calling station who will look you up on a small min bet on every street. When you are fairly sure your weak hand is good enough. You have the edge here and you want to slowly bleed this player rather than taking large shots at him were you at putting yourself at risk to a suckout. Any sort of strong hand don't do it.
I never do it in any other games. But your point about on flopped sets is useful as so many times with a slow-played set the pot isnt big enough to induce a call.

El Stuntman

phantom_lord wrote:

but when's the right situation?

duh, when you've been check-minraised obviously....

a thing of great beauty!

sikes

i min raise a lot now, on crappy flops against multitablers, its uber profitable

Captain Tom

sikes wrote:

i min raise a lot now, on crappy flops against multitablers, its uber profitable

was just about to say this.this is probably the only time i do so and i never minraise just make a smallish raise.

ive been thinking about this quite a bit recently.i generally dislike minraising because vs good players i think its very transparent and vs bad players i feel im losing value with big hands.but ive seen it done by hugely successful online players regularly so im sure not doing so is a leak.

ive seen it used quite frequently vs extremely laggy players when stack sizes are such that when you raise them they still beleive they have fold equity if they push.seems to work quite well in this spot.

Hectorjelly

we had this exact thread recently

phantom_lord

Hectorjelly wrote:

we had this exact thread recently

don't remember that...?

Hectorjelly

Id search for it but I can never find anything when I try to

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

Id search for it but I can never find anything when I try to

that'd be the ketamine kicking in

Gholimoli

i use to be one of those who was against it all the time.
i just couldn’t find any use for it that could not be justified with a proper raise and not a gay raise.
Recently i have changed my mind though.
there are quite a few places where a min raise can be good.

Basically the problem i had with it was that with a min raise your opponent nearly always has the odds to call thus not making a mistake.
But then i came across situations where my hand was so strong that even a min raise was not offering enough odds for them to call.
When these situations occur i think min raising is fine .
However i think this applies to more multiway pots because if you have such a strong hand then you want to be building the pot and minraising does not really build the pot that much when HU.
The problem is these situation’s don’t present them self’s that often.
I mean how often are you in a multiway pot with a very strong hand on a board that does not mind slow playing?
Another good use of this is in tournaments.
Say for example a short stack goes all in for 4BB.
Its folded to you and you have a hand that you want to get HU with.
You can make it 8BB .in effect any one else has to call 8BB if they want to play.
If some one now comes over the top then you can getaway from it cheaply if you like instead of your usuall 12BB raise.
Obviously you can do this with AA,or a big hand as well to invite action.

Jaden

Every time I min-raise, I am bluffing, and almost every time the other chap folds.

I min-raise on flops when:
I'm HU against another player ONLY.
I've raised PF.
I've checked the flop, and he's bet 1/2 to full pot.
The player HU is not a Donk, but reasonably tight.

Against certain players, it's fairly profitable. Even when you get a call, and min raise the turn, they say to themselves "I'm being milked here", and fold thinking they're really clever. It's a bit of a "In know that you know that I know" game. The tin-foil hat types fall for it alot.

BobSloane

Alot of players that flop a set out of position play it check - min raise - bet out on turn. So this can be effective if you're playing a tight scared player and you flop maybe a straight draw.
For example you've been running well and call a raise in the BB with 6h7h.
Flop comes 4d 5c Js

You check - original raiser bets, you min - raise, he calls.
Turn 10d
You bet out. Does this look like a set??

I'm not a big fan of it either myself and the above is probably good advice on how to donate your stack to someone lol

pok3rplaya

If you're a CR member TC just did a vid recently where he talks about this issue.

pok3rplaya

Also my thread where I flop raised a guy in a RR pot and he pushed over me with AK is a situation where a minraise would work well.

Shortstack

ty 2+2 for popularising the min raise. I wondered why I started seeing so often recently. It is particulary effective against me if you have a hand as I tend to ship it over min raises, however most of the time I see it on drawing boards and they either fold or call with their poxy draw.

fuzzbox

Sometimes the objective is to keep the one-pair hands in the hand, and not play against ONLY the draws.
Minraise is good there.

Minraise can also be very useful on the river.

DeVore

I think maybe check-minraising on the river with a big hand might be about the only time I would do it. Even that is a bit stinky. Beyond that, cant think of another street I would min-raise on. If I was going to do it it would almost certainly be a river min-raise or min-reraise.

DeV.

sikes

fuzzbox wrote:

Minraise can also be very useful on the river.

Im the opposite to Dev.
i think the river is the only street that i have found myself never min raising. What type of scenarios are you talking about?

Inducing a bluff push? Usually with 100BB i never get to a river where the stacks allow for this. I don't like min raising for value because i think you are missing out on $$. If its part of a value bet, then its just there to help my image.

Gholimoli

i can certainly think of a river min raise scenario.
Situation where you want to basically bet/fold you can minraise and fold if you get raised.
Your bet in not a bluff but a value bet but know if you get raised you have to drop.
its basically a situation where your bet may get called by a lesser hand but would never get raised by a worse hand.

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

i can certainly think of a river min raise scenario.
Situation where you want to basically bet/fold you can minraise and fold if you get raised.
Your bet in not a bluff but a value bet but know if you get raised you have to drop.
its basically a situation where your bet may get called by a lesser hand but would never get raised by a worse hand.

the stacks determine the size of the bet in that scenario.

im really looking at situations where we can min raise to either add something to our image or to make use of a read on the villain. Making use of a read on the villain isn't a great move on the river because there are no more streets and there isn't the threat of further action from us, which is one of the great aspects of min raising the flop and because of this, i don't feel the need to add to my image of min raising with a strong hand on the river.

Basically, I think the min raise should never be used on the river as a tool. Yes , the stack size might dictate a min raise, but as you say you are using it as a value bet.

Yes i know what i am saying is all over the place.