Munster & Leinster - Heineken Cup

LFC5Times

Gerry Thornley writes a good article in todays Irish Times with the headline "Despite defeats Irish system has merit"

In the article he compares Munsters knockouts defeats in the Heineken Cup with Leinsters.

Munsters 7 knockout defeats in the last 8 years have been by - 1,1,6,1,5,9 and 9 points -which is not bad.

Whereas Leinsters have been by 11,7,16,24 and 22 points - not great really.

He comments 'At least Munster kept going,and still fashioned two tremendous tries in the final quarter'.


Just thinking to myself the defeats by Wasps,Munster and Leicester really where hammerings - Leinster were never in those games and never looked like winning.

Arguably Leinster are further away from winning the Heineken Cup than before Declan Kidney.

I know Leinster play an exciting brand of rugby -when they get the ball,but i perosnally have never been impressed or confident in Cheika and Knox and i have stated this to friends from the start of their appointment.

I fail to understand the signing of Whittaker - he is no better than Easterby - both average.

And as alot of people seem to be saying -the two coaches are signing up their old Aussie mates (Finnegan etc) and giving them some money for a pension before they retire.

At the same time the Leinster Branch and also the Leinster coaches owe to the backline Leinster have to get some decent front 5 players.

bugler

The points difference will only tell you so much. Munster were soundly beaten - 9 points doesn't reflect this. They eventually started to play, and if the pack fought as furiously all game as they did for the last quarter it might have been closer.

Leinster competed well for the first half. They came off second best by far in the second half though. On another day it might have been a different story.

All that said, the statistics don't lie. Munster when they've lost have generally been close-ish, whereas Leinster have had a few crushings. It's not something I'd ever thought about to be honest. And ultimately it's not of great importance.

What is of great importance is an apparent lack of progress in the development of a Munster cutting edge out wide and a Leinster pack that can compete at European level consistently.

buck65

But bugler at least Munster have recognised their shortcomings and with the signing of Carney and Lewis and the unlikely persuing of Doug Howlett have sought to redress their failings.
I think they looked a bit burnt out on Friday both physically and emotionally and to be honest the defeat to Leicester may well have rocked their confidence.
Leinster on the other hand have no excuse, they are capable of great things but really its time they dug into the trenches. I would give Cheika and Knox another year to prove themselves. They look like shoe ins for the Magners,this is a big achievement for them but would love to see them land the big one.

bugler

We've yet to see if Munster have recognised their failings, buck. Or more specifically if Kidney has recognised their failings. The signings of Carney, Lewis and Warwick were needed last year.

Carney and Earls were left out of the squad for the Llanelli match. The only person left on the bench to turn to was Barry Murphy who hasn't been firing this season at all. So essentially Plan A - dominate Llanelli up front failed, and there was no Plan B.

Both Leinster and Munster have made signings that might rectify their failings for next year - but I wouldn't bet on it.

raven136

LFC5times...have to say thats harsh on knox and cheika...the brand of rugby is more than just good to watch and with a few decent forwards it will be a winning brand of rugby.Totally agree with the finnegan thing but whiteaker is a far superior player to easterby.
The main problem with the quarter finals was that neither team ssem to have a plan b. Also in leinsters case some players just didnt put their bodies on the line,maybe thats an attitude thing a kind of we have such good backs of course we'll win.
The return of cullen and jennings and the signing of knopp will hopefully rectify that.

Also leinster put on the greatest display of attcking rugby in years against toulouse,so we know they can perform on the big day they just need to do it consistently

LFC5Times

They have performed once out of 4 times and that was only in the quarter final.

What happened against Wasps ? Munster and Leicester ?

It was a big jump from Randwick to Leinster thats all im saying and while they may play exciting rugby,winning is all that matters in "business" as Cheika likes to refer to it.Its up to Cheika and Knox to get players to put their bodies on the line and sign the players we need,not Finnegan or Vermaas etc

Whittaker is average thats all he is,just because he was sub behing Gregan in OZ(people think he's automatically good)doesnt mean anything sure look Paddy Wallace is sub behind O'Gara and he is average - got rave reviews for playing against the Pacific Islanders - yet routinely misses tackles and makes poor decisions for Ulster.

Aldini98

Cheika has to go. Anyone in their right mind would not have played Lewis on Saturday. Shaggy should have been moved in and Carney played on the wing. As for consistantly allowing Brian "I cant throw a f-ing ball" Blaney NEAR the team is just too much.

Diamondmaker

LFC5Times wrote:

They have performed once out of 4 times and that was only in the quarter final.

It was a big jump from Randwick to Leinster thats all im saying and while they may play exciting rugby,winning is all that matters in "business" as Cheika likes to refer to it.Its up to Cheika and Knox to get players to put their bodies on the line and sign the players we need,not Finnegan or Vermaas etc

QUOTE]

Chieka record:

ML 2nd Place, ERC beat Toulose , lose in SF to eventual winners
ML 1st place ( fingers crossed ), poor display losing in QF away to Wasps

Now given that next season is when we will have real impact from new recruits this is not a bad record, for some one as you say, who has made the jump from Randwick to Leinster!

Who expects a manager to bring more than the above in 2 season?
I dont, I have high expectations for next year with Jennings and Leo back, we WILL recruit big in the front row and these need to be good signings.
Judge him next year.

For now they have gone further than most EP, ML and T14 teams in 2 seasons!

Agree with the point on Finnegan and Vermass however.

Diamondmaker

Aldini98 wrote:

Cheika has to go. Anyone in their right mind would not have played Lewis on Saturday. Shaggy should have been moved in and Carney played on the wing. As for consistantly allowing Brian "I cant throw a f-ing ball" Blaney NEAR the team is just too much.

Cheika has to go!!???....he ( may ) wins the ML in 2nd season, jeese give the guy a chance. 1 and a half seasons he has had and only one off season, remember Ella started last season, ( or do you ?! ) What leinster need now is stability in management for a decent period after Kidney, Ella debacles in last 3 seasons and you are calling for another. A pay off also to let him go wasting valuable transfer cash, think about what you are saying!
Its only now that serious cash is availble too thro BOI.

What happened when Ireland moves Shaggy in??
Shaggy as most agree is not suited to centre, Lewis has impressed many at centre in the past.

jackbhoy

Aldini98 wrote:

Cheika has to go. Anyone in their right mind would not have played Lewis on Saturday. Shaggy should have been moved in and Carney played on the wing. As for consistantly allowing Brian "I cant throw a f-ing ball" Blaney NEAR the team is just too much.

It's Kearney, not Carney!

No way i'd play play numerous players out of position to bring Shaggy to IC, he's not great there in first place and that decision really cost Ireland in 6N. Lewis has been very good in most games he's played this season, it's only since he signed for Munster that his form has dipped, even so he didn't stand out as worse than others....

LFC5Times

If you guys really think winning the Magners League or coming second is something to go on about - you lack ambition and need to aim a lot higher.

The Magners League is between 2 countries- Scotland havent got a team worth entering and Wales have 1 maybe 2 teams.

Its a mickey mouse competition.

Im not calling for Cheikas head,yet,have another year but dont try tell me the Magners League is something to celebrate.

Diamondmaker

LFC5Times wrote:

If you guys really think winning the Magners League or coming second is something to go on about - you lack ambition and need to aim a lot higher.

The Magners League is between 2 countries- Scotland havent got a team worth entering and Wales have 1 maybe 2 teams.

Its a mickey mouse competition.

Im not calling for Cheikas head,yet,have another year but dont try tell me the Magners League is something to celebrate.

Out of the HC now! What s the next highest thing to aim for? The ML

You gotta aim for what you can win and they have a chance to get SOME silver ware this season. SOme consolation it will be , but only some......

Its better than an interpro...The ML is an achievemnet in its own right, succesufully balancing a team for an entire season ( not just holding them for 6 big games ) its a less glamourous achievement, but none the less better than NOTHING.

IF you were to take a new coach on board and write "win HC " into his contract in 1st yr that would be nonsense, everybody has got to be able to build. This is only the 1st season Leinster have not been messed around by changes in coaching staff and that has to be taken on board. Also only recently did many key players commit to the future. This stability has hopefully now been found.

Why are people not calling for Kidneys head? he is an experienced coach winthin Munster and the HCup, settled in Munster and has seriosuly UNDER ACHIEVED this season. Of the 2, Cheika has produced a better result from less time, less sponsor ship resources, less fans.........
Im gonna start a "sack Kidney" thread more reason to sack him than Cheika!!

A settled Munster side may come out with squat, I would be more worried about aiming for a HC and winning nothing, than building to a HC and winning a ML.

Your commenst are purely aimed to ro rise a reaction and somehow draw a M V L debate from no where.

buck65

I think the ML is a good competition but if both England and France ; pull out of the HC maybe a Uk and Ireland League would be the way to go.

GreenHell

Never happen. UK is happy enough with its domestic competition than to be sharing the spoils with us.

The ML is a decent league thats treated poorly, mainly by us. A decent PR campaign, funding for the weaker teams and a better attidute from competing teams would make a big difference in particular I'm looking at us down south.

crybaby

I think you have to give Cheika huge credit if we win the Magners league as it really is ridiculous how many badly its treated by the national teams and it would be interesting if the HC does fall apart for next season to see a restructed league in place that would see full strength teams going at it

The Heineken Cup though Munster and Leinster are such different teams that the scores dont really suprise me, Munster play a tight game based on precision and passion and thats the type of game place that makes for closer game ahnd plus they never give up

Leinster on the other hand unfortunatley have a tendency to throw in the towel when O'Driscoll isn't around and once they feel the game is out of their reach they just give up as was shown with that pitiful display against both Munster and Wasps

Cheika and Knox to me though are doing a good job although I think they really need to have a serious look at the pack during the summer, clear out the garbage from it and start building it up again. the signing of has beens for their "experience" has to stop immediatley