Deap

ardara1

The revised version of the DEAP calculation package was rumoured to have been released today - has anyone any updates?

I believe it's not being made available to everyone - only those completing BER training?
Will building control accept calc done on the SEI spreadsheet?

muffler

Just for the benefit of users who may not be aware of what DEAP is. Its an abbreviation of Dwellings Energy Assessment procedure and details can be viewed on the SEI website

sesswhat

If you are self-building you will probably take the opportunity to exceed any of the building regulations standards on insulation and energy efficiency in any case, but they should accept the spreadsheet results as this was one of the purposes it was designed for.

The spreadsheet itself seems like a lot of work though and I don't know if many self-builders have actually been asked to supply this sort of information?

On the other hand, only an SEI registered assessor will be able to get you a certificate for the purposes of selling or renting a house.

Mellor

depending on when you applied for PP, you still need a cert even if you are not selling or renting.
as for standards, if you are self building, you should go for an A rating. No reason not too.
it will cost more, but in a few years, C houses wount be worth much on the market

ardara1

Playing about with it Mellor I can't see how an 'A' rating will be achieved without renewables in the design - I'd be happy with a 'B' rating on a pretty standard construction with a bit of tweeking - relying on these LZCs that cost a fortune - will not last that long - and will probably not be used properly - isn't worth the cost - I've worked out the difference between a B and A is about €450 per year?

Mellor

Well B is the minimum by the regs. B2 to be exact. The scale is in bad shape.
The top end of the scals is too open. they size of sections sections should be reduced. for example, a house with a energy output of 26KWh/m2y has the same rating as a house with 49KWh/m2y
theres a big difference there.

how did you work out the cost per year?
difference betwen A and B is 75KWh/m2y
Say a house of 200m2. so 15,000KWh/m2y
This is where I get stuck. What price per KWh should be used. The ESB price??? Lower???

ardara1

Mellor wrote:

Well B is the minimum by the regs. B2 to be exact. The scale is in bad shape.
The top end of the scals is too open. they size of sections sections should be reduced. for example, a house with a energy output of 26KWh/m2y has the same rating as a house with 49KWh/m2y
theres a big difference there.

how did you work out the cost per year?
difference betwen A and B is 75KWh/m2y
Say a house of 200m2. so 15,000KWh/m2y
This is where I get stuck. What price per KWh should be used. The ESB price??? Lower???

Hi Mellor -

I'm taking the ave price of energy at roughly 6c /kw (Sei quote energy prices monthly on their web site - it's hidden in the depths - but I'll try to find it again) - taking the ave house at about 120m2 you can work out the difference when the DEAP gives you the Kwhr/m2/yr in you example of a 200m2 property - the differcne is closer to €900 - an A3 is less than 50
A B1 is less than 75 - so only 25 of a difference

At 200m2 (Which is never going to be 'green' as you mentioned) the differnce going from a B to an A would be 5000 - Euro 300 -

I think that by us all concentrating on renewables as the solution (when they're only going to last for decades rather than the life of the building) the CO2 emissions point gets lost

Wear a vest and turn your thermostat down.

sas

ardara1 wrote:

relying on these LZCs that cost a fortune

Forgive my ignorance, LZCs are?

Mellor

ardara1 wrote:

I'm taking the ave price of energy at roughly 6c /kw (Sei quote energy prices monthly on their web site - it's hidden in the depths
Yeah I had a look before I posted, couldn't find it, only ESB prices. 14-15

taking the ave house at about 120m2
I would of thought the average house is bigger than that. Suppose it depends weither the house is a one off or developer built

an A3 is less than 50
A B1 is less than 75 - so only 25 of a difference
From B1 to A3 is only 50. But thats the smallest B to A.
B2 to A2 is 75, so is B3 to A3. Each letter represents 75KWh/m2y, I tok this figure as its the average.
For example the difference between and an A and a B (B3 to A1) could be 125KWh/m2y or more

At 200m2 (Which is never going to be 'green' as you mentioned) the differnce going from a B to an A would be 5000 - Euro 300 -
I agree here that one flaw with the rating system is that house scale isnt taken into account. Compacting a house can cause a rise in energy/m2
but total energy is very low for a house.

The building regs ask for a B2 rating (its actually dependant on volume/surface area ratio, but nearly all are in B2). So improvement to A is at least 50kwh/m2/y.
One thing thats worth mentioning too is the fact that as a house reaches a lower and lower energy rating, the average cost of a KWh increases, due to the fact that heating cost is reduced and electricty makes up a larger percent of energy consumption. Electricty costs 16c a KWh, which throws off the average.
Electricty has an image of being a clear energy, but infact its probably the worst, in this country at least.

ardara1

Mellor wrote:

The building regs ask for a B2 rating (its actually dependant on volume/surface area ratio, but nearly all are in B2). So improvement to A is at least 50kwh/m2/y.
One thing thats worth mentioning too is the fact that as a house reaches a lower and lower energy rating, the average cost of a KWh increases, due to the fact that heating cost is reduced and electricty makes up a larger percent of energy consumption. Electricty costs 16c a KWh, which throws off the average.
Electricty has an image of being a clear energy, but infact its probably the worst, in this country at least.

hi Mellor - found it!

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=58&docID=-1 (under publication - 6c seems reasonable)

I don't see where regs ask for B2 - all calcs I have done are comming in at C -and pass Part L fine -

Electric is twice as dirty as N gas - pushing CO2 up and is more expensive.

Have you heard any thing about the release of the software?

ardara1

sas wrote:

Forgive my ignorance, LZCs are?

Hi SAS - LZCs are LOW & ZERO Carbon technologies

Low - Ground source heat pumps
Zero - wind

Etc

Mellor

ardara1 wrote:

hi Mellor - found it!

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=58&docID=-1 (under publication - 6c seems reasonable)

I don't see where regs ask for B2 - all calcs I have done are comming in at C -and pass Part L fine -

Electric is twice as dirty as N gas - pushing CO2 up and is more expensive.

Have you heard any thing about the release of the software?

Thanks for the link. Must bookmark it.
Agreed 6c is reasonable.
If a calculation was carried it wouldn't be hard to quote the list and itemise it.
Eg Space and Water heating 75% @ 6c
Electricty 25% @ 15c


You can comply with Part L under "Elemental U-Values" and the house could come in at a C rating.
But if you choose to comply under BER the KWh/m2y will need to be within the 80-100 range depending on house shape.
Its a bit of a contradiction. As BER still needs to be carried out, even if you comply by elemental means.
So a building reg compliant house can be a C. Depends on what means is used to comply. Similar to the OHL verses Elemental u-values discussion.
I imagine that over time OHL will be phased out, followed by Elemental.

Zero carbon energy sources are going to have to become a larger part. Not even on a domestic scale but the likes of electricty production.

All I heard was new software at Easter. But nothing yet.

ardara1

Mellor wrote:

Thanks for the link. Must bookmark it.
Agreed 6c is reasonable.
If a calculation was carried it wouldn't be hard to quote the list and itemise it.
Eg Space and Water heating 75% @ 6c
Electricty 25% @ 15c


You can comply with Part L under "Elemental U-Values" and the house could come in at a C rating.
But if you choose to comply under BER the KWh/m2y will need to be within the 80-100 range depending on house shape.
Its a bit of a contradiction. As BER still needs to be carried out, even if you comply by elemental means.
So a building reg compliant house can be a C. Depends on what means is used to comply. Similar to the OHL verses Elemental u-values discussion.
I imagine that over time OHL will be phased out, followed by Elemental.

Zero carbon energy sources are going to have to become a larger part. Not even on a domestic scale but the likes of electricty production.

All I heard was new software at Easter. But nothing yet.

Hi Mellor -

Part L building regulations has NOTHING to do with regs - it's a separate piece of legislation - all you need to do to pass Part L for B Control approval is to make sure the Carbon emissions are below a target (MPCDER-against CDER) - and there's other certain things like min levels of insulation (like in OHL) that can't be surpassed

Scotland have taken this level as well - but if you look at Part L app C - th eElemental values (for everything! boiler efficiency, no. of vents, sheltered side - - it's all there)

Mellor

Part L from building regulations was revised. The TGD includes BER. Part L is a building regulation.
The other piece of legislation is the EPBD. This is separate.
As I said in my post there are three ways to comply with Part L.

Elemental U Values
Overall Heat loss
Heat Energy Rating
You only have to comply with one.


If you choose to go the route of HER then you have to meet KWh/m2y limits.
As I said you don't have to go this route.
Here is the revised TGD part L,

Part L

page 11, section 1.4, has the info on complying with part L through HER.
The buildings HER has to but under the MPHER.

This is separate to the DEAP certificate.

ardara1

Mellor wrote:

Part L from building regulations was revised. The TGD includes BER. Part L is a building regulation.
The other piece of legislation is the EPBD. This is separate.
As I said in my post there are three ways to comply with Part L.

Elemental U Values
Overall Heat loss
Heat Energy Rating
You only have to comply with one.


If you choose to go the route of HER then you have to meet KWh/m2y limits.
As I said you don't have to go this route.
Here is the revised TGD part L,
http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/a137e0322d60e09780256f5d00504a79/$FILE/30183 Build Regs L 2002.pdf
page 11, section 1.4, has the info on complying with part L through HER.
The buildings HER has to but under the MPHER.

This is separate to the DEAP certificate.

0.1.1 Section Part L
For dwellings, the primary method of demonstrating
compliance is to show that the calculated rate of
CO2 emissions associated with the operation of the
dwelling does not exceed a target value specified in
this document. In addition, reasonable provision
should be made for energy efficiency measures
which: –
- limit the heat loss through the fabric of the
building;
- limit the heat loss from pipes, ducts and
vessels used for the transport or storage of
heated water or air; and
- control, as appropriate, the demand and
output of these services.

It's ONLY the subsection limiting heat loss thru' the building fabric that can be proven by elemental or OHL method - not with compliance with Part L. - It's only CO2 that count a DEAP has to be done to prove this - I can't see any mention of BER - can you clarify

- This is getting more complicated than I thought!

I must have a different (PDF) version of the Part L document P11 section 1.4 is about non heated buildings and extension - where does it state that HER is still OK?

muffler

Is this of any help:

S.I. No. 873 of 2005 - Building Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2005



Fuel and Energy: L1 A building shall be designed and constructed so as to ensure that the energy performance of the building is such as to limit the amount of energy required for the operation of the building and the amount of CO2 emissions associated with this energy use insofar as is reasonably practicable.

Dwellings L2 For dwellings, the requirement of L1 shall be
met by-

(a) providing that the CO2 emissions associated with energy use for space heating, water heating, ventilation and lighting of a new dwelling, calculated using a method published by Sustainable Energy Ireland, are limited insofar as is reasonably practicable

(b) limiting heat loss and, where appropriate,
maximising heat gain through the fabric of
the building

(c) controlling, as appropriate, the output of the
space heating and hot water systems
(d) limiting the heat loss from pipes, ducts and
vessels used for the transport or storage of
heated water or air.

Mellor

Sorry, looks like the link above wasn't working. I fixed it, I think.
Here it is again.
Part L
This is the TGD part L specific to dwellings.

TGD Part L Dwellings, 2002, reprint ed. May 2005 wrote:

0.1 The philosophy underlying Part L of the First
Schedule to the Building Regulations is that
occupants can achieve adequate levels of thermal
comfort while minimising the use of scarce energy
resources. Buildings should be designed and
constructed to achieve this aim as far as is
practicable. This requires, as a minimum, the
provision of energy efficient measures which –

(a) limit the heat loss and, where appropriate,
maximise the heat gains through the fabric
of the building,
(b) control as appropriate the output of the
space heating and hot water systems;
and
(c) limit the heat loss from pipes, ducts and
vessels used for the transport or storage of
heated water or air.

The TGD takes this section almost directly from the building regulation. The requirements regarding conservation of fuel and energy are laid out in Part L of the Second Schedule tothe Building Regulations 1997 (S.I. No. 497 of 1997). And it has been ammended and reads almost the same as the quote above.

Section 1. Limitations of Heat Loss through Building fabric wrote:

1.1 GENERAL

1.1.1 Any one of the following three methods may
be used to demonstrate that an acceptable level of
transmission heat loss through the elements
bounding the heated building volume is achieved

(a) The Elemental Heat Loss method
(Paragraph 1.2);

(b) The Overall Heat Loss method
(Paragraph 1.3);

(c) The Heat Energy Rating method
(Paragraph 1.4).

The BER certs required now are a result of the EU Directive on the Energy Performance of Buildings.
The (EPBD) contains a range of provisions aimed at improving energy performance of residential and non-residential buildings, both new-build and existing. This Directive was adopted into Irish law as Regulation in 2006.

As part of the Directive, a Building Energy Rating (BER) certificate, which is effectively an energy label, will be required at the point of sale or rental of a building, or on completion of a new building.
This certs are now complusory.



The current building were established in 1997 (1992 was the previous edition)
But they are being revised the whole time and a list of revisions is available.

Part L has allowed HER to be used as a means of compliance for the past few years. But it was never used as elemental and OHL were far easier. The method chosen were voluntary. Alot of people were unaware of HER calculations because of this. Through my studies, I had to learn to carry out a HER energy assessment long before the EPBD was in place, or even heard of.
Most people have only become aware of this type of assessment since the introduction of EPBD and the DEAP. These BER certificates are complusory and are unrelated to the HER compliance assessment option from part L .

Part L still has HER as an option. And if chosen it had limits that need to be adhered to. These limits and be found in TGD part L dwellings section 1.4

So to return to my original point, the limits of a Part L HER compliance are a very high standard. And most houses will not reach this standard, but will comply with part L through other means, and will comply with the EPBD by producing a BER certificate.

I know its a bit long winded, but I hope its easy to follow. Energy in buildings is going to become a bigger and bigger topic over the next few years. It wouldn't be a bad idea in smashy or muffler made a sticky with relevant info in it.

muffler

Mellor wrote:

Energy in buildings is going to become a bigger and bigger topic over the next few years. It wouldn't be a bad idea in smashy or muffler made a sticky with relevant info in it.

Not a bad idea. Its certainly something that we will include in our "to do list". Unlike this thread however I think that links only to the relevant regs - statutory instruments etc need be provided.

ardara1

Don't you guys realise the document you are talking about TGD L was updated in June 2006 - with the 2005 version of Part L????

Roches Statement-

"I am delighted to publish guidance to help designers and builders comply with certain key requirements of the EU Energy Performance of Buildings Directive", said Mr Dick Roche, T.D., Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Minister was commenting today (31 May 2006) on the publication of the 2006 Edition of Technical Guidance Document L on Part L (Conservation of Fuel and Energy) of the national Building Regulations.

Part L Document
Technical Guidance Document L - Conservation of Fuel
and Energy (1997 edition) and Technical Guidance
Document L - Conservation of Fuel and Energy -
Dwellings (2002 edition) cease to have effect from 1 July
2006.

Mellor

ardara1 wrote:

Don't you guys realise the document you are talking about TGD L was updated in June 2006 - with the 2005 version of Part L????

I was aware that TGD part L was updated, and the Updated version is available of the environ website.
However the Part L Dwellings TGD hasn't been updated on the site, and I thought it was to be soon, along with all the rest.
Is this not the case?

Also the "old versions" can still be in effect until the end of June 2011. Any home that applied for PP before july 2006 is covered by these ones.
New buildings from july onwards are affected by the new ones.


Say there is is a house that got applied for PP a year ago.
The application has only got through planning recently and they are ready to go to site.
They are covered by the 2002 regs. They do not need to provide a BER Cert, BUT its probably a good thing to consider anyway due to the public awareness and if the house ever goes back on the market one will be required.
So the house is assessed for an energy rating. There are limits set in the regs that apply to this house for an energy rating.
But as I said they are very high and probably wont apply. And compliance with part L will be through other means.

ardara1

Mellor wrote:

I was aware that TGD part L was updated, and the Updated version is available of the environ website.
However the Part L Dwellings TGD hasn't been updated on the site, and I thought it was to be soon, along with all the rest.
Is this not the case?

Also the "old versions" can still be in effect until the end of June 2011. Any home that applied for PP before july 2006 is covered by these ones.
New buildings from july onwards are affected by the new ones.


Say there is is a house that got applied for PP a year ago.
The application has only got through planning recently and they are ready to go to site.
They are covered by the 2002 regs. They do not need to provide a BER Cert, BUT its probably a good thing to consider anyway due to the public awareness and if the house ever goes back on the market one will be required.
So the house is assessed for an energy rating. There are limits set in the regs that apply to this house for an energy rating.
But as I said they are very high and probably wont apply. And compliance with part L will be through other means.

The 2005 Part L is available for download form the DOE website from June last year

there is a shorter period of grace for approvals received before July 2006 -

Old - 2002 document will still apply to buildings -

Conservation of Fuel and Energy -
Dwellings (2002 edition) cease to have effect from 1 July
2006.
However, these documents may continue to be used in
the case of buildings:
- where the work, material alteration or the change of
use commences or takes place, as the case may be, on
or before 30 June 2006, or
- where planning approval or permission has been
applied for on or before 30 June 2006, and substantial
work has been completed by 30 June 2008.

muffler

Listen lads. This is turning into a bit of oneupmanship with each trying to get the upper hand on the other.

I dont want to see this thread turning into a platform for personal self gratification of what is and is not perceived to be the most relevant or updated version of a regulation.

Keep the comments from here on specifically to the thread title - DEAP

And shorter posts are easier to read and would be more welcome.

ardara1

muffler wrote:

Listen lads. This is turning into a bit of oneupmanship with each trying to get the upper hand on the other.

I dont want to see this thread turning into a platform for personal self gratification of what is and is not perceived to be the most relevant or updated version of a regulation.

Keep the comments from here on specifically to the thread title - DEAP

And shorter posts are easier to read and would be more welcome.

Muffler - let me state here - I have the greatest respect for Mellor - he talks more sense than many of the contributors we have contributing to the board.
Can YOU specifically pinpoint where you see this one up man ship manifests itself?

Mellor and I are speaking abot DEAP - DEAP is a process used to calculate building regulation compliance AND the BER - I am confused about your perspective of the discussion - I see it as a very RESPECTFUL exchange of information - once again - thank Mellor for your contribution - I wish there were more like you!

muffler

ardara1 wrote:

Muffler - let me state here - I have the greatest respect for Mellor - he talks more sense than many of the contributors we have contributing to the board.
Can YOU specifically pinpoint where you see this one up man ship manifests itself?

Mellor and I are speaking abot DEAP - DEAP is a process used to calculate building regulation compliance AND the BER - I am confused about your perspective of the discussion - I see it as a very RESPECTFUL exchange of information - once again - thank Mellor for your contribution - I wish there were more like you!

Let me go through your points:

Contributers who have posts that are inferior to Mellors - Can you say who these are and give examples by PM please.

Pinpointing the oneupmanship: - The posts and conter-posts speak for themselves.

DEAP and BER: I am aware of these so I dont need a crash explaination

Respectful exchange: Yes, agreed to some extent but while there is no animosity shown in the responses by both of you never the less its turning into the ardara1 and Mellor show.

I will make this simple - its a good thread and I dont see why either of you are determined to prove the other wrong. Post the links to the info you have at hand but we dont really need 15 lines of a response with each post.

Now I've said all I'm going to say on this and would like to get this back on topic

Mellor

I don't think its a case of either of us trying to out-do one another. But I do see how somebody new to the forum could get lost reading through the posts.
ardara1 and I have been are simpling talking part L have different ways of applying it. Im not trying to out do anybody on here. I value Ardara1's opinion. I respect him and the posts reflect that.
But in the interest of clarity I've no problem with deleting or tidying up posts.
As ardara1 and I are aware of each others point on the topic, let me know through PM

Nukem

ardara1 wrote:

The revised version of the DEAP calculation package was rumoured to have been released today - has anyone any updates?

I believe it's not being made available to everyone - only those completing BER training?
Will building control accept calc done on the SEI spreadsheet?

Ardara - the new DEAP software is rumored to be finished last Thursday night. Heard from someone on an SEI course last week.

The software as i understand it will not be publicly available for the time being but will be eventually. The spreadsheet should give people a bit of an understanding on how to improve their house rating by making adjustments and comparisons.

And no anyone those who are using the excel calcs will not be allowed to issue a Cert as it is my understanding. The grey area i see is that people who have done the course must get re-trained using the software before they are a registered accessor.

As this link says http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1090&docID=-1 "qualified" but the wording required is "registered".

Mellor

Thats a bit strange, as the new softare will produce the same ansers as the excel calcs, and I suppose the new software will only be an excell program made to look a little prettier.


Nukem, the link you gave lists all people who are quailified and the moment,
It says at the bottom that people quailified are able to apply for registration from april.

"Note: These people are eligible to apply for formal registration, which will commence in April"

Nukem

Yes this is correct but in order to be trained you must have completed the DEAP official software training which no one has yet as it has not been formally released.

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1050&docID=-1

Top of the page
"Building Energy Ratings (BERs) can only be based on assessments completed by persons that have successfully completed (overall pass mark ≥70%) a training course which meets the BER Training Specification. This training must be based on the official version of the Building Energy Rating software (DEAP Version 2.1). This version of the software is scheduled for release at the end of March"

This is written into the training requirements also - so as far as i can gather; if you have done the course and still have yet to use the DEAP software then you must complete an assignment using the official DEAP software and not the excel version.

Mellor

Would i be right in thinking that all courses take account of this, and their should be no enrolling or signing up for additional assoignments.
and the final assignmens should come out as soon as the software does,

serotonin_sam

Mellor wrote:

the final assignmens should come out as soon as the software does,

Yes, this is the case. Once the software is released, the training providers will schedule training on the actual deap software. Only following this can qualified BER Assessors proceed to registration.

Mellor

Out of curiosity, are all courses the same price to complete?

Nukem

As far as i know its €1800 everywhere for the training - its the registration and other fees that are due on an annual basis that is the pricey part.
All the info is on the SEI website

fitz1985

started the course last week. we have been just reading through the DEAP files which you get on sei.ie and the building reg's part L. then we have been doing some examples. the price for the program if you are doing it is 1000 for the 1st year and then 500 every year after. the money is just for subscribing the software.

ardara1

fitz1985 wrote:

started the course last week. we have been just reading through the DEAP files which you get on sei.ie and the building reg's part L. then we have been doing some examples. the price for the program if you are doing it is 1000 for the 1st year and then 500 every year after. the money is just for subscribing the software.

Where have you attending? - did you get a copy of the 'new' software from SEI to work on?

fitz1985

its only my class that are doing it,like there is no outsiders that we dont know doing it. well i just graduated and got my diploma in architectural technology so tey are doing the course in our college to see how it goes(we're like the test pilots to see if they'll bring it in next year for other students) and the software i cant seem to get it without registering and payin the amount they are lookin for and its annoyin me cause the guy thats teachin us said the software was free to download but if you wanna register then you pay the money. so the only thing tats annoyin me is i cant practice on it without being in college.

Do-more

Just wondering if energy labelling is based purely on energy efficency or on carbon emissions?

The reason I ask is that with Airtricity now supplying domestic customers (albeit at the same price as the ESB) as well as business customers, then any electric heating could be argued as being zero carbon. How is this dealt with in DEAP?

sydthebeat

Do-more wrote: »

Just wondering if energy labelling is based purely on energy efficency or on carbon emissions?

The reason I ask is that with Airtricity now supplying domestic customers (albeit at the same price as the ESB) as well as business customers, then any electric heating could be argued as being zero carbon. How is this dealt with in DEAP?

I think the issue here is that the supply of electricity can be changed by owners, so what is airtriciity today may be coal fired ESB tomorrow....

dont want to be dragging up old threads, but i though this was an interesting question.

galwaytt

Actually - that's an excellent question..........I'm going to push the assessor that did our house on this, and see what happens........

Mellor

AFAIK the label is based on energy, not carbon, the reason is as sydthebeat pointed out