Fashion N.H Stallions And Agents

Fashion Man

What makes a Good N.H stallion. Is it looks, pedigree or progeny
Answer: None of the above , its Bloodstock Agents.
They rule and ruin the whole N.H breeding scene.
What ever they choose is Gospel.
If you dont have your foal by what they want then they would'nt even go near your stable.Even do your foal might be by a twice as good stallion as the ones they somehow pick.It dont make sense.This type of attitude is crippling the the N.H scene.Mares are not been crossed in order to make good racehorses, they are been crossed with Fashion that could fall flat on its arse tomorrow.The breeder no longer studys his mares pedigree or stallions pedigree.He just goes with what some Gom spending other peoples money wants.The future for developing a good N.H horse is not bright.

knighted

there is so much money around now these agents are just moping up -agree about fashionable -oscar must be riding mares 24/7 imo not shown much but an agent can sell any amount just cause he 'fashionable'

coolmore are increasing the nh stallions every week -failed flat sires who people want to be seen going to -u just have to look at the hurdling ranks now and they dominated by ex flat horses

sires i tend to like are flemingsfirth ,heron island ,great palm if they crossed with good genuine nh bred mares -too much flat being bred into the nh game
but i do have some exceptions mainly the aga khan breeds -they not too afraid to breed in some roughage and a lot of his seem to be natural jumpers from back breeding.

Fashion Man

Hi Knighted.I am goin to be a bit critical here with some of the horses you mentioned. Oscar: People are been roped in by this horse.He has one horse that the public really know Black Jack Ketchem, a horse who has been placed in the right races to-date.Up to christmas Oscar had sired 100 individual winners of racing age,Now you might say jees thats good but the facts are up to christmas he had 100 winners from 1400 coverings of racing age.Now on statistics this looks a horrendous record.If a horse that covered only 10 mares and got 1 or 2 winners people would say thats bad but comparing him to Oscar it would be infact Tremendous achievement.When are people going to take off the rose tinted glasses and deal with reality? Oscar is a Disaster


Flemensfirths are known headcases and are hot and cold in the sales ring.

Great Palms have a reputation of getting knocked for the wind,same with Oscar a very high rate of wind failure.

knighted

i dont like oscar -agree to a certain extent about others what about heron island ?
benificial?

Corroboree

The Coolmore influence is good and bad, as they can manufacture prices for any sire in the sales ring. But buying to race as I do I think Flemensfirth is a sire of real potential. Saddlers Hall is the one I cannot understand, some of the prices are crazy !

knighted

i agree about flemingsfirth the potential-just bought a cracking filly by him out of a solid nh family and looking forward with her

Corroboree

Ive got Imperial Commander (Flemensfirth - Ballinlovane (Le Moss) now in training with Nigel Twiston-Davies, bought him privately and split with a few pals, god willing he will make some chaser. Will be looking privately and at the sales this year, still think he is good value when you look at some of the other Coolmore entries.

Like the look of some of the Zagrebs I have seen

terry mac

I remember thinking the same thing about Presenting......

fits

I think the breeding that is going on in the thoroughbred industry is absolutely shocking. People are breeding based on performance only. I dont deny that performance is important, but not to the exclusion of other attributes such as conformation, soundness and temperament. Inbreeding is another issue in my opinion. The number of thoroughbreds I've seen with shocking conformation through bad breeding is something else.
The thoroughbred is a sickly animal at the moment....

terry mac

Conformation, soundness and temperament are mainly important because people think that they can be indicators of future performance. They're not really important in their own right, so of course more concrete performance evidence is going to outweigh those characteristics.

knighted

at the end of the day u can have a supermodel looking horse and it cant run a yard -sad fact -incidently only 50%of horses that are broken ever see a race track and a futher 5%will ever win a race -a lot of luck involved

Fashion Man

Heron Island is getting his winners but to look at him as a specimen he is very much like a rasher and he has a desperate temper.

Beneficials one word "SLOW"

Zagreb is a fine looking horse but he is living off one race The Derby

Saddlers Hall is probably a very good sire, gettin winners everyday, but the agents culled him before his first Irish crop of foals ran.Typical agents

Presenting has the reputation of breeding horses with bad front legs. A sire with luck on his side, his two best horses couldnt be given away when they were 3 and 4yr olds.

Cantoris

I don't pay too much heed to breeding as our trainer go on looks and more or less looks alone. He wouldn't buy a Rahar etc etc and does look at the breeding of the mare more than the stallion side. He had a few nice Beneficials and has no probs with them. (a few winners actually). He wouldn't be a fan of Dr. Massini. I agree that Oscars and Supreme Leaders have terrible breathing trouble. With Supreme Leaders, they also have trouble with jumping. Not a problem with Oscars so plenty willing to take a chance on their breathing. Flemensfirths need it deep so that kinda knocks out three quarters of the season if you end up with a moderate horse. Presenting is fine with me.. Saddlers Hall just strikes me as producing slow horses. Given that JP had 75 in his ownership at one stage I''m not surprised they sold well. Bit like Milan. I did like Classic Cliche until they went wrong with their wind.

Alflora and Anshan are two cheaper stallions I like. We bought a Fourstars Allstar who was nice (then broke his leg). Luso's at least are a bit more reasonably priced now although the jury is out. The only Old Vic I had any involvement in was a fruit cake! Not sure about Overbury's or Pistolet Bleu. I believe the last named could produce an orchestra with his offspring.

So all in all, they all have problems but it's about picking the right looking one and sticking sometimes to tried and trusted stallions. We did and have ended up with two nice horses, both Good Thynes.

knighted

that flemings firth i bought was second produce -first produce is with ca murphy-can u check on its progress for me cantoris if i give u the dams name -dont know if they named there one -i think u said b4 ur involved somehow down there ?

terry mac

Cantoris wrote:

I don't pay too much heed to breeding as our trainer go on looks and more or less looks alone. He wouldn't buy a Rahar etc etc and does look at the breeding of the mare more than the stallion side. He had a few nice Beneficials and has no probs with them. (a few winners actually). He wouldn't be a fan of Dr. Massini. I agree that Oscars and Supreme Leaders have terrible breathing trouble. With Supreme Leaders, they also have trouble with jumping. Not a problem with Oscars so plenty willing to take a chance on their breathing. Flemensfirths need it deep so that kinda knocks out three quarters of the season if you end up with a moderate horse. Presenting is fine with me.. Saddlers Hall just strikes me as producing slow horses. Given that JP had 75 in his ownership at one stage I''m not surprised they sold well. Bit like Milan. I did like Classic Cliche until they went wrong with their wind.

Alflora and Anshan are two cheaper stallions I like. We bought a Fourstars Allstar who was nice (then broke his leg). Luso's at least are a bit more reasonably priced now although the jury is out. The only Old Vic I had any involvement in was a fruit cake! Not sure about Overbury's or Pistolet Bleu. I believe the last named could produce an orchestra with his offspring.

So all in all, they all have problems but it's about picking the right looking one and sticking sometimes to tried and trusted stallions. We did and have ended up with two nice horses, both Good Thynes.

So many mass generalisations I don't know where to start...

Cantoris

I never said I was being specific!! I was just giving my experience of various stallions. Any experience you have, whether good or bad, will bias you one way or the other into making a generalisation. I can assure you that Classic Cliche's will not be on our list....simply because of the experiecne of three or four trainers with them. That's about three or four of his 150 offspring each year! A complete generalisation. Take Beneficial. Generally not liked by agents. We like him as his offspring are not liked but good looking individuals, pacy and go for relatively cheap money. Good Thyne was the same. So in answer to your point......complete generalisations and unless you can roll out twenty statistics on each with comments from every trainer who has had one by a certain stallion, that is all any of us can do.

Knighted, let me know the dams name and I will do my best. I'm down there every two/three weeks so should be able to find out if it's alive.

knighted

will pm u dams name -thanks

beneficials-i had one bought for three grand she progressed well won once and placed six times bit unlucky but genuine -its a sire i follow a bit cause u can pick them up cheap -mine had a slight breathing prob but the treatment for this is so advanced now it wouldnt put me off providing its the right money -gva ireland is a good example of benificials -gallopers

we got good money for her when we sold her at the feb mixed sale double what we expected -we could talk all day about sires and breeding but everyone has there preferences and tried and trusted ways of selecting a horse ask ten people what they look for in a horse and u would prob get 10 diff answers -if it can make it to the racetrack u know u have done something right

Fashion Man

Hi,Has anyone a nomination to Old Vic or Presenting that they might sell

knighted

not being funny with u fashion man but as i stated earlier post my knowledge of the breeding businass is limited but i dont think u can sell or transfer nominations to these sires u have to be accepted to them ie have a quality mare that the stud want to cover to stop ordinary mares getting covered by them to keep the quality of the offspring up -if they told u they were full it might mean they dont want ur offering -they checked our mare out b4 telling us yes or no -

but i do have a nomination to supreme leader that i could sell u for 2 grand

Fashion Man

Knighted, It appears from what your saying that you are only on a promise because if you purchased a nomination you could do what you like with it.

knighted

fair enuff u seem to know more than me on the subject but i can only speak from what happened to me and as far as i was aware nominations get bought and sold for the top flat sires syndicated horses not nh sires but there u go learn something new every day

keepitquiet

shame about celestial wave, hate to see a good horse put down. on the subject tho as they said the horse would be used just for breeding hence not running anymore. for me this is wat ruins flat racing and i h8 to see it merge with nh...

terry mac

keepitquiet wrote:

shame about celestial wave, hate to see a good horse put down. on the subject tho as they said the horse would be used just for breeding hence not running anymore. for me this is wat ruins flat racing and i h8 to see it merge with nh...

not really ever going to happen with 90% geldings is it...

Some mares sour very quickly, Asian Maze being a case in point

Fashion Man

keepitquiet wrote:

shame about celestial wave, hate to see a good horse put down. on the subject tho as they said the horse would be used just for breeding hence not running anymore. for me this is wat ruins flat racing and i h8 to see it merge with nh...

Celestial wave a lovely mare, would have love have her for breeding.Loved her sire Taipan he was some sire , sad day when he died. Taipans family on fire lately.