some rambling thoughts on table rhythm/c-bets

robinlacey

since a few of you seemed to find some of the stuff i posted in the thread about 3betting useful,i thought i'd post something else that might be worth thinking about,its something i wrote a while ago on a message board my friends have for talking about poker,and its probably the thing i've written that gets closest to dealing with how i think poker should be played.

it was in response to a hand my friend posted,so i'll put up his original post and then my reply.

its a little more abstract and a little more about "feel" than standard hand analysis,so it's possibly a little waffly,but i think its worth thinking about.

i think some of the ideas i mention are among the most important in poker,but i rarely see them discussed or written about,even during the golden age of twoplustwo a year or two ago,possibly because its the sort of thing that it's difficult to be precise about.

anyway,hopefully it should provide some food for thought/discussion.



ORIGINAL POST:


This is the result of my experimentation with raising mid pairs preflop, I actually felt it was the wrong play because the guy calls but i wanted it to look like a continuation bet and then hit scenario. Trying to get away from bluffing with the best hand though so was a little disappointed with myself

Boys From Brazil 10474869-115351 Holdem No Limit $5/$10
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Hand Start.
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 1 : R0N7655 has $404.25
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 2 : hanngame has $365
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 3 : sob45619 has $3,580.66
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 4 : pengweng has $552
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 5 : catzilla123 has $723.75
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 6 : jotaele1 has $871
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 7 : jorgejuan has $790.50
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 8 : DonLimpio has $777
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : Seat 9 : tommyblinds has $892.92
[Dec 30 08:54:02] : DonLimpio is the dealer.
[Dec 30 08:54:04] : tommyblinds posted small blind.
[Dec 30 08:54:04] : R0N7655 posted big blind.
[Dec 30 08:54:04] : Game [115351] started with 9 players.
[Dec 30 08:54:04] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Dec 30 08:54:04] : Seat 7 : jorgejuan has 8c 8d
[Dec 30 08:54:09] : hanngame folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:09] : sob45619 folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:10] : pengweng folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:11] : catzilla123 called $10
[Dec 30 08:54:15] : jotaele1 folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:22] : jorgejuan called $10 and raised $40
[Dec 30 08:54:24] : DonLimpio folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:25] : tommyblinds folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:26] : R0N7655 folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:28] : catzilla123 called $40
[Dec 30 08:54:28] : Dealing flop.
[Dec 30 08:54:28] : Board cards [2c 9h 7c]
[Dec 30 08:54:30] : catzilla123 checked.
[Dec 30 08:54:34] : jorgejuan bet $80
[Dec 30 08:54:36] : catzilla123 called $80
[Dec 30 08:54:36] : Dealing turn.
[Dec 30 08:54:36] : Board cards [2c 9h 7c Kh]
[Dec 30 08:54:39] : catzilla123 checked.
[Dec 30 08:54:46] : jorgejuan bet $190
[Dec 30 08:54:52] : catzilla123 folded.
[Dec 30 08:54:53] : jorgejuan wins $272 as the last player standing
[Dec 30 08:54:55] : Hand is over.

I'd be really interested to hear comments on this, I played it way different to my usual and it worked out great but I felt like I got lucky. What should be done differently? The guy had been at the table two orbits but had taken down 4 pots without a showdown and i sensed he felt suicidal so was happy to lose the 60 on the flop to potentially get a bundle.


MY REPLY:

i just want to comment on the middle (88) hand

this is very standard,i don't always bet the turn but 9 handed i do more often than not,but the point i want to make is that you can't look at a hand like this in isolation,and also if you are able to pick out this one hand from a session then you are probably doing something wrong in my opinion,that something basically being not having millions of hands like this per session...

i don't know if that sounds a bit abstract,but basically i think you should be raising a lot of hands,certainly all mid pairs (i raise all pairs) as well as suited broadway,unsuited broadway in late position or against a bad limper,suited connectors in position,etc,and as you raise all these hands you have to develop some sort of rhythm for when to c-bet,when to fire the second or even third barrell,etc

you just gradually get a feel for how this should go,usually i'd c-bet 80-90% of flops vs one player who checked to me,maybe 70% vs two players if there's been one check,55% or so vs 2 players if i'm first to act,etc, and then bet the turn if A-the texture changes and they check again (like in the hand you posted a K is a good card to bet) or if they've limp called/check folded a few flops recently and you get the feeling they're calling this c-bet with anything,its often worth firing another round,etcetc

3rd barrells are obviously much rarer,and usually for players who will check call flop and turn with a weakish ace for top pair (AT,etc)or something like QK for top pair good kicker but will be able to fold the river-there are quite a lot of these players at 9 handed mid-high stakes games...

anyway,the point i'm making is that its very important to stop looking at pots like these in isolation,these are the bread and butter pots that you play all the time,and the most important thing to realise is that it doesn't matter if they call or fold!

obviously if they are always looking up your c-bets or second barrells you are doing something wrong,but then you need to adjust to the rhythm of the table and your opponents,this is kind of a feel thing that you get with practice,but looking at this one hand,you say

"This is the result of my experimentation with raising mid pairs preflop, I actually felt it was the wrong play because the guy calls but i wanted it to look like a continuation bet and then hit scenario. Trying to get away from bluffing with the best hand though so was a little disappointed with myself"

which is in my opinion completely the wrong way to look at it-if i am this hand i don't care whether he calls the flop or the turn,i just trust that over time i have developed a good enough feel for when to check or bet that he folds often enough for it to be profitable,i know that he has to call some of my second barrells sometimes and i don't mind at all,its just part of the ebb and flop that goes on while i'm waiting to stack someone,and it also makes it easier to stack someone since i'm playing a lot of pots with them...

and when you say

" I actually felt it was the wrong play because the guy calls "

i think this means you are thinking about it the wrong way totally,you shouldn't give a **** whether a single continuation bet is called,because you should be making hundreds of them over the course of a session,its sort of like in supersystem when he talks about playing loads of small pots to set up for the big ones (he phrases it badly in the book but the concept is good)

all the above is for full ring,but most of it is relelvant to six max too,none of it is probably too relelvant to 2/4 or below,or at least its not as important...

i've been playing a lot of 10/20 and 25/50 full ring recenlty and it seems to me that this sort of agression is actually possibly more profitable than at 6 max where people expect it and know that they need to counter it more,in full ring a lot of people play like they have a chart and its vital to take advantage of that,the main way to do it is by punishing limpers and people who will call a bet on the flop and fold on the turn with their TPMK/mid pair type hands,because no one else is doing this

robinlacey

credit where credit is due:

i said above that i rarely see this sort of thing talked or written about,but,as i mention in my reply,the one place that these ideas are talked about is in supersystem.

supersystem was the first poker book i ever read,and i keep meaning to reread it,because the more i think about and play poker,the more i realise how good it was.it probably wasn't the best book to read as a beginner,although i remember thinking at the time that it gave me a good insight into how poker at high levels should be played,even if it wasn't much use to me at the time when i was playing .50/1

its amazing that it was written however many years ago and is still relevant to todays games.i haven't seen all the episodes of high stakes poker,but i think its telling that brunson is pretty much the only big name pro whose been around since the pre-internet days who doesn't look like a fish out of water playing nl holdem cash games.

pok3rplaya

I'll anaylise the ish out of this tomorrow I'm to drunk nw not even gonna try. I want you'r wisdoms Mr. Robin Lacey.

kebabfest

This is an excellent piece and not abstract in the slightest. However I would imagine that this philopshy would be more in tune with cash games as opposed to tourneys.
Interesting that you have found it better working at full ring than 6 max as I would have thought the opposite due to the wider range of hands played on 6 max.
In terms of what the other bloke said about the singular hand you're quite right in that you shouldnt take 1 hand into account.
Ironically the way you play these hands will only work for an advanced player as if a novice tried to play in the same way it would look very much like pattterened play.
I would be interested in hearing on what reasonable high stakes on-line cash players think of this.

sikes

nice post. This is what i found at the lower stakes.

A lot of players cbet religiously if they raised preflop. but the effectivness of a cbet depends on the board texture, how your image is and your opponent(s).

Everyone's cbet should have positive expectation, however, by passing up one with a minor +expectation, like on a very coordinated board, you allow future cbets to have a greater expectation. Of the X% of the time i dont cbet, its not picked randomly, but taking the board as the main consideration and you can always just make a delayed continuation bet on the turn anyway.

But as you say its all about feel and the flow of the game.

At the higher stakes, I would imagine you would have to mix your game up more. If you always cbet on a good board like Q72 rainbow, which I would always do atm, the players, I would imagine, are much smarter and will repop you a lot becuase they know thats profitable for you and they know you are not going to have a hand most of the time. Something I have done a lot is, when I smooth call preflop, I will raise their cbet on boards such as these against the right opponent, often less than the size of the pot and take it down a large % of the time.

robinlacey

sikes wrote:

At the higher stakes, I would imagine you would have to mix your game up more. If you always cbet on a good board like Q72 rainbow, which I would always do atm, the players, I would imagine, are much smarter and will repop you a lot becuase they know thats profitable for you and they know you are not going to have a hand most of the time. Something I have done a lot is, when I smooth call preflop, I will raise their cbet on boards such as these against the right opponent, often less than the size of the pot and take it down a large % of the time.

yeah its definitely become more important to start raising people's c-bets,but also other people are starting to realise this to,so you have to start reraising again when people raise your cbets too!

ZZR1100

robinlacey wrote:

yeah its definitely become more important to start raising people's c-bets,but also other people are starting to realise this to,so you have to start reraising again when people raise your cbets too!

And then they will realise this too and RR.where does it all end

Macspower

robinlacey wrote:

yeah its definitely become more important to start raising people's c-bets,but also other people are starting to realise this to,so you have to start reraising again when people raise your cbets too!

sounds like a real domino effect. Thankfully at the site and levels (1/2) I play at there are only a few players capable of 3 and 4 betting and RR your C-bets light. Generally I dont get a lot of experience at it because (i know its the checken way out) if i'm at a table where my C-bets and raises are getting played back at, I just go and find another table...
Great post again Robin....

Mac