Make people work for the dole?

PoleStar

Here is an interesting idea which has been brewing. Not sure if this is the right thread.

Thinking about social welfare in other countries, such as the US were benefits are only given for a limited time, got me thinking about the system over here with people who are long term on the dole with no job.

Should we make them work for their dole money.


Heres how it might work. For first 6 months on dole, individual gets money no questions asked. After 6 months if individual hasnt found themselves a job, then they are given a job working maybe 15 hours a week for a government set up scheme, some sort of community service job such as maintaining green areas, cleaning streets, office work, anything really I dunno.

This way, it would serve a number of purposes.

For the person on the dole it would perhaps relieve boredome and give them something to do as often feelings of worthlessness are found amongst these individuals.

It would also encourage those who have no interest in working to find a better job to avoid the government work.

And for the tax payer it would give a feeling of value for money for our tax dole payouts.

Is this out-rageous? or maybe a sensible idea that kills a number of birds with a single stone.


I do understand that the administration of such a scheme may make it impossible in practice.

Gurgle

PoleStar wrote:

Heres how it might work. For first 6 months on dole, individual gets money no questions asked. After 6 months if individual hasnt found themselves a job, then they are given a job working maybe 15 hours a week for a government set up scheme, some sort of community service job such as maintaining green areas, cleaning streets, office work, anything really I dunno.

Good plan & it would force a lot of off the books workers to stop scamming the dole.

Only problem is its a bit inhumane to deny subsistance money to that percentage who have never and will never get out of bed and do something constructive.

I'm tempted to say let them starve, but we can't have starving homeless people hanging around.

seamus

PoleStar wrote:

I do understand that the administration of such a scheme may make it impossible in practice.

That's pretty much the one major stumbling block I can see. In modern Ireland, the long-term unemployed are those who don't want to work. So they're going to invent some scam to get around this (have someone else clock in for them, find a dodgy doctor and permanently ring in sick, etc etc). Regardless of what checks you put in place, there's always going to be some way around it - turn up pissed, you get sent home but still get clocked in, etc.

The problem is that you can't force people to do a job that they don't want to do, and you can't fire them either. Even if you made "satisfactory performance" a stipulation of the continued dole, they'll scream victimisation and clog up the courts with appeals and bull****.

What I think would work better would be education schemes. Again, 15 hours or so per week. It doesn't exclude you from getting your dole, but you get a certain % of your dole, based on how many classes you take (a system of credits if you will). Even if they turn up and write on the tables, it's *something*. If they don't turn, they still get dole, but not as much as they would if they went to the classes.

Crucifix

Would it be just trivial work we don't need done? Or would it be useful stuff...ie, stuff we've already hired people do? So we'd have to fire people to make room for these unemployed people?

mike65

Its reckoned only 20% of the 80,000 umemployed are signing for more than one year and most of them (having listened to Ryan Tubridys coverage of this topic in the last few weeks) are 50 somethings who are (over)qualified from thier last job and won't allow themsleves to start fresh on the bottom rung of a different employment ladder. i.e. Woodies.

Mike.

Filan

Is that in effect not what many community employment schemes and many other fas schemes do? except that one must be a year unemployed? Actually my brother is a civil servant and he considers it a form of dole...so small is the amount of work to be done...and an expensive form of dole at that!...I have often been unemployed and would never have objected to work...and would have benefited me in many ways so long as common sense prevailed. Many people on Fas courses really learn very little...many very,very badly run...with even the co-ordinators only interested in self preservation by maintaining sufficent numbers...regardless of the suitability of candidates or curriculum. This artificaly keeps down unemployment statistics. The amount of long term unemployed in Ireland is relatively small....most do want to work...many have disabilities and various disadvantages....I have had a great many health problems...which at times hugely interfered with my capacity to work...however I nor most others would ever have objected to assistance in overcoming these...life on the dole is existence...not life...this is not what most would choose.

InFront

These people were the railroad builders and canal builders of the British Empire, The idea has been around for a very long time, and although it is put to some use here in Ireland, it probably isn't used extensively enough. I presume you could argue that it hinders the person seeking gainful employment in private sector and maintains an artificial dependency on the state.

Zombrex

PoleStar wrote:

Should we make them work for their dole money.

What you are basically saying is that the government should make jobs for these people to do. But sure if they could do that they wouldn't be on the dole

de5p0i1er

Gurgle wrote:

Good plan & it would force a lot of off the books workers to stop scamming the dole.

Only problem is its a bit inhumane to deny subsistance money to that percentage who have never and will never get out of bed and do something constructive.

I'm tempted to say let them starve, but we can't have starving homeless people hanging around.

Let them starve, or mabye they'll feck off to England and try to tap there welfare system instead of ours. Why should we pay for a bunch of lazy slobs to sit on there arses and do nothing while we go out to work.

Gurgle

de5p0i1er wrote:

Let them starve, or mabye they'll feck off to England and try to tap there welfare system instead of ours. Why should we pay for a bunch of lazy slobs to sit on there arses and do nothing while we go out to work.

Its the difference between socialist democracy and capitalist democracy.

silverharp

You could start with having it age related, there should be no dole for people under 23/25 for instance (if they havn't worked before), giving dole to teenagers is bad for them in the longer term as it sets a precedant of something for nothing. Anything is better then being on the dole.

Saruman

Good idea this! It will not work for everyone so maybe have it on a case by case basis so it can be refused if an able bodied person does not take a job.
The jobs would be jobs that are needed.. we need more people cleaning the streets, changing public litter bins etc. these are jobs we need so my might as well get the lazy people to do it. If they realise they have to work to get money then they might eventually better themselves and get proper jobs.

There will always be people who will milk the system and others on short term dole when in between jobs or simply cant work but if we can get a lot more people off their arses it would be a good thing for everyone.

tbh

I think one of the problems with the scheme is that whatever job you put the unemployed on will be "devalued" - i.e. If I had a full time job cleaning streets, how bad would I feel that the government is putting the long-term unemployed into that job - and if they are still paying them dole, they'd obviously be on less than what I'm being paid (probably). I'm not saying that would be the right attitude, but would probably be the prevailing one. The unions would go mad.

I think that if someone is on the dole, but not working, they should not be paid cash - food vouchers, ESB vouchers, Gas vouchers etc etc, plus a little bit of "Pocket Money". If you go on a scheme, the vouchers go down and the money goes up.

lostexpectation

if you take some guy who gone to college and pehaps has an IT degree and gets sacked by company in down turn in the industry, he isn't expected to go get a job in mcdonalds whatsoever.

you can be legitmately on the dole if you can't get a job in the category and level of which you have trained for, I don't know why so many people bileful mistaken idea that dole is just for wasters.

the dole is mininum payment

PoleStar

Wicknight wrote:

What you are basically saying is that the government should make jobs for these people to do. But sure if they could do that they wouldn't be on the dole

I think you are wrong here.

The influx of foreign nationals who seem to have no trouble finding jobs would go against what you say.

InFront wrote:

you can be legitmately on the dole if you can't get a job in the category and level of which you have trained for, I don't know why so many people bileful mistaken idea that dole is just for wasters

That is why I suggested a 1 year window period after which the individual is given the option of work or nothing.

iguana

What you are talking about is basically the SES (social eployment scheme) schemes that were introduced in the mid-nineties. Afaik they aren't around any more which is no bad thing.

Just think it through logically. If you are getting people to do work for dole money, you are taking away work which other people normally do for a proper wage. People who have been doing their jobs for years suddenly find their jobs destabalised by cheap labour. They lose their job stability, they haven't a leg to stand on when they are looking for cost of living wage increases or better work practices.

Dr.Bunson

Chain Gangs? I like it!!!

WindSock

I think its a great idea, I'm on the Dole at the moment and I hate sitting around doing nothing all day, posting on this website. I would be happy to do some work each week. I could throw paint over unsightly tags for instance.

Gurgle

InFront wrote:

you can be legitmately on the dole if you can't get a job in the category and level of which you have trained for, I don't know why so many people bileful mistaken idea that dole is just for wasters

Legitamely, yes.
But how long do you have to be unemployed before you reduce your sights and take any job you can get.

At some stage, with qualifications/training/experience or none, long term on the dole makes you a waster.

dave2pvd

...sounds like the dole in Ireland is too high to me. Lower it, and the ex-IT worker would embrace working in Woodies to make ends meet pretty quickly.

InFront

Gurgle wrote:

Legitamely, yes.
But how long do you have to be unemployed before you reduce your sights and take any job you can get.

At some stage, with qualifications/training/experience or none, long term on the dole makes you a waster.

Hmm that's the second time that comment's been attributed to me... I didn't say it, someone else did!:D

edit: lostexpectation said it.

Gurgle

InFront wrote:

Hmm that's the second time that comment's been attributed to me... I didn't say it, someone else did!:D

edit: lostexpectation said it.

doh, I copied Polestar's quote

donaghs

Its an interesting idea that often discussed down the pub. Certainly in a time of full employment.

Over-50s should definitely be exempt though due to the difficulties of finding work at that age.

How about adding this idea onto it? Every Irish citizen should have to pay some sort of minimum tax? This would guarantee that scroungers like ex-esat O'Brien pay their fair share for the running of public services.;)

Newaglish

I think people on the dole (the able bodied ones) should be made to push giant turbines to generate electricity with zero harm to the environment.

They could also expand this scheme to prisons.

Just kidding... or am I?!?! Think about it....

K4t

lostexpectation wrote: »

if you take some guy who gone to college and pehaps has an IT degree and gets sacked by company in down turn in the industry, he isn't expected to go get a job in mcdonalds whatsoever.

you can be legitmately on the dole if you can't get a job in the category and level of which you have trained for, I don't know why so many people bileful mistaken idea that dole is just for wasters.

the dole is mininum payment

I agree, and this situation will especially apply during the recession when jobs are scarce.

Forget about getting people on the dole to work. It's just too complicated for a variety of reasons.

The majority of these 'wasters' are people who have struggled or who have been failed by the education system. They deserve their social welfare.
Instead, money should (have) have been poured into education in the budget e.g. special needs, resource classes and so on.
Basically, the governments education cuts are just going to mean more people on the dole in the future.

ChocolateSauce

The way to do it is to make the dole a humiliating experience. Give a person a bus pass, pay their rent and give them food stamps, but under no circumstances give them enough money to do anything with. The dole is to stop people from starving, not to ensure they live comfortably.

This approach would not only provide the service of welfare, it would reduce cost, increase the number of people desperate for work, and best of all, it would stop losers and junkies from spending taxpayers money on drugs. I know too many people who live with their parents and spend the dole on drugs.

And I like drugs, but only as a special treat when I have the money to spare.

dlofnep

It's a good idea.

97i9y3941

i think that dole thing was a good idea,i would like the same applied to the grant system,i knew people who worked half their life,wanted to get to college,only to find out they werent entilted to an grant or back to education allowance cause they were not claiming off the dole half their life,while some rich businessman/farmer undeclares their income for their kids to get the grants.

mikemac

To get an education grant for your kids if you're self-employed involves handing over a set of accounts.
So realy unlike a PAYE worker, you need an accountant for your application, more expense.

I'm sure some farmers under declare their incomes but having seen these applications, they must be getting help doing it.
As you have an accountant compiling everything and then you have the local VEC staff checking it all so somebody is not doing their job.

97i9y3941

heard aswell the goverment could be reforming the lone parents scheme by making them work?