Balcony Ownership?

Dynamo

Ok, I think this is a new scenario. It relates to my balcony ajacent to my apartment. Recently my property agent as in a news letter stated that the balcony does not belong to the owner but to the management company.....


I am on the ground floor, though I am raised about 5ft above ground level. The balcony is railed off from the public and partitioned from my neighbours. The outline of my balcony is detailed on the drawing in my contract although no specific reference in writing has been made to it. The only door/gate access to the balcony is through my apartment.

Is it possible that I do not own my balcony.

I would consult my solicitor, if I didnt have to change to a new one after my current one charged twice the agreed rate, but thats a different matter and remains to be solved.

Anyhow I think its all laughable.......Trust no one

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

talkingclock

The first time i ever heard of that and frankly that's insane! but with my experience with estate managements i wouldn't be surprised if you have to ask to enter the balcony that is attached to your apartment.

since my estate management started postin weekly letters in the tenants letter boxes what do do and what not to do in the estate i replied and asked for written permisson to breath on the estate grounds. never heared again from that company maybe you ask them for written permission to use that balcony and for the rules on how to use it?

loyatemu

in an apartment development you generally own the space inside the apartment - the physical structure belongs to the management company, of which you are a shareholder. the management "agents" (eg Wyse or whoever) just act on behalf of the company. Not sure how this applies to balconies.

niall2j

It's a technicality. I would imagine if you examined your contracts you'd find that while you do not 'own' the balcony per se, probably because it's part of the external structure, I'll bet that there's a paragraph somewhere that states it's private and for your exlusive use/enjoyment.

If there were any structural issues with it, then it would be the management company's responsibility to fix it. I don't think anyone's trying to do you out of anything, just that it's the most workable way to manage it.

godtabh

I've a balcony and would like know how this works.

Balconies are used in calculating floor area of apartments so if its not mine then the floor areas given to me are wrong

niall2j

kearnsr wrote:

I've a balcony and would like know how this works.

Balconies are used in calculating floor area of apartments so if its not mine then the floor areas given to me are wrong

This is not always the case (wasn't for me) but I'm sure it could vary from developer to developer. Just need to look at the fine print I guess..

jimmycrackcorm

As the solicitor said to a friend buying an apartment - all you are buying is the cube of air you are living in and some internal partitions.

godtabh

niall2j wrote:

This is not always the case (wasn't for me) but I'm sure it could vary from developer to developer. Just need to look at the fine print I guess..

I had always been told thats the way by agents and what not and until now I had no reason to doubt it.

At the end of the day is there anything they can do to stop you using it? Sure its useless to most other people

niall2j

kearnsr wrote:

I had always been told thats the way by agents and what not and until now I had no reason to doubt it.

At the end of the day is there anything they can do to stop you using it? Sure its useless to most other people

I don't think so... this is my point, I don't see it as a bad thing! We have a patio, not a balcony because we're on the ground floor but basically in my contracts, it was noted that it was for my exclusive use. If there is any serious problem with the patio, (lets say for example with drainage), I don't have to fix it, it's initially the builder's responsibility and then, ultimately, the management company's.

Like I said, your balcony is almost definitely allocated for your exclusive use, by contract, and it is forever tied to the owner of the apartment, but you are not responsible for it's structural soundness, just like you're not responsible for the lift or stairs in your block.

As far as I know, if you owned a structural component of your apartment block, then you'd have to be paying insurance on it. Instead, you pay block insurance as part of your management fees and the responsibility for its upkeep is taken out of your hands.

Victor

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

As the solicitor said to a friend buying an apartment - all you are buying is the cube of air you are living in and some internal partitions.

You are also buying a share in the company.

connundrum

niall2j wrote:

Like I said, your balcony is almost definitely allocated for your exclusive use, by contract, and it is forever tied to the owner of the apartment, but you are not responsible for it's structural soundness, just like you're not responsible for the lift or stairs in your block.

As far as I know, if you owned a structural component of your apartment block, then you'd have to be paying insurance on it. Instead, you pay block insurance as part of your management fees and the responsibility for its upkeep is taken out of your hands.

This is the way that it is unfortunately. And so you are unable to do many things on your balcony that you might have thought you could ie. erect a satellite dish, hang out clothes (may or may not be enforced), affix a bbq, erect a bike hanging device thing etc.

I have yet to come across the situation where this has worked - but I'm sure if your building's management company were to vote on it at an AGM, some of the above restrictions could be lifted?

antoinolachtnai

The balcony is licenced to you, not let, at least that's the way in the last lease I saw.

This is a good thing from the point of view of the management company being responsible for the maintanance of the balcony.

Re putting things on the balcony, this has to do with planning permission as well. Generally speaking you cannot put satellite dishes at the front of buildings. There is often a planning condition that the balcony will not be used to for drying clothes.

Generally speaking, there are conditions under the lease on what you can do inside the apartment too. You can't open a laundry in it for instance.

In the current case, you need to read the lease very carefully to understand the situation.

talkingclock

Might go a bit OT but what is the reason behind that I'm not allowed to dry my towels an t-shirts on the balcony?

Victor

talkingclock wrote:

Might go a bit OT but what is the reason behind that I'm not allowed to dry my towels an t-shirts on the balcony?

If everybody does it, it makes the building look unsightly.

Have you heard of decorum? It starts with towels and t-shirts and graduates to off-white y-fronts with .... marks.

antoinolachtnai

It's often a condition in the planning permission, no?

snb

As stated above you are licensed to use the balcony under what is called a 'Lease of Easements'. This is contract you signed when purchasing your apartment which gives you not ownership of the common areas ( everything except the 'cube of air you live & the partition walls') but a right to use them based on the rules of the actual owner, ie the management company.

The management company makes the rules, such as not hanging washing out, and you as a member of the management company can participate &vote on such matters at Anuual General Meetings.

So, all in all, you do have an ownership interest/right over your balcony based on your Lease of Easements, though it is not the highest form of ownership in the traditional sense, in that other parties also have an interest/right over such common areas and can, as the example set above, dictate or limit how you use the property.

The_Conductor

kearnsr wrote:

I've a balcony and would like know how this works.

Balconies are used in calculating floor area of apartments so if its not mine then the floor areas given to me are wrong

Normally balconies and all external areas are *excluded* from the calculation of floor space. Floor area is calculated according to a formula which was determined by the Department of the Environment and is a legally enforceable formula. A copy of this Statutory Instrument can be viewed at:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI128Y2004.html

In appartments and leased buildings (even those on 999 year leases), the external of the buildings and all common areas would be vested in the Management Company. So- strictly speaking you do not *own* the balcony- but as pointed out above, it would normally be for your exclusive use.

Shane

The_Conductor

kearnsr wrote:

I had always been told thats the way by agents and what not and until now I had no reason to doubt it.

At the end of the day is there anything they can do to stop you using it? Sure its useless to most other people

As the calculation of floor area is a legally binding calculation- it is enforceable and if measured incorrectly you could potentially sue the agent who mis-measured the property. For this reason if you hop onto www.myhome.ie and view properties by certain franchisee estate agents you will see a lot of information but noticeably no floor areas in the properties they are selling. God, I hate estate agents.......

The_Conductor

connundrum wrote:

I have yet to come across the situation where this has worked - but I'm sure if your building's management company were to vote on it at an AGM, some of the above restrictions could be lifted?

In most cases these restrictions are detailed in the Terms and Conditions of the Lease which is probably lodged with the Bank by way of security for your mortgage. Unfortunately its not a case of simply voting on it at the AGM- as your lease and its conditions has precedent and is legally enforceable. If it were to be modified it would necessitate legally changing the leases associated with the propery(ies). A decision could be made to turn a blind-eye to particular terms, but this would have no standing in law.

antoinolachtnai

I would say the managment company could certainly release the tenants from conditions of the lease, or more straightforwardly decide not to enforce a condition. The problem then would be that the local council could serve enforcement proceedings for breach of planning permission. It is (probably) a condition of the planning for the development that the balconies not be used for drying clothes, and it is certainly a breach of the planning laws to erect a satellite dish.

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I would say the managment company could certainly release the tenants from conditions of the lease, or more straightforwardly decide not to enforce a condition. The problem then would be that the local council could serve enforcement proceedings for breach of planning permission. It is (probably) a condition of the planning for the development that the balconies not be used for drying clothes, and it is certainly a breach of the planning laws to erect a satellite dish.

However- as the exteriors and communal areas are vested in the Management Company, surely enforcement proceedings would thus be issued against the Management Company itself by the Council- rather than against the offending Leesor?

antoinolachtnai

Possibly true, but what difference would that really make?

is_that_so

smccarrick wrote:

However- as the exteriors and communal areas are vested in the Management Company, surely enforcement proceedings would thus be issued against the Management Company itself by the Council- rather than against the offending Leesor?

We had an "incident" a few years back where our block was deemed to have caused a sewage problem for a neighbour. The local council held everyone in the block individually liable and sent them letters to that effect. This was despite the fact that the Management Company was charged with resolving the problem.

Dynamo

Thanks all for your replys. they are greatly appreciated. Have looked into it, and yes I have exclusive rights etc. Management agent say we cannot have any object on our Patio/balcony. Best of luck to them trying to move my BBQ! and Hammock

The_Conductor

is_that_so wrote:

We had an "incident" a few years back where our block was deemed to have caused a sewage problem for a neighbour. The local council held everyone in the block individually liable and sent them letters to that effect. This was despite the fact that the Management Company was charged with resolving the problem.

Hmmm-
The owners strictly speaking are liable, however this liability is vested in the Management Company. So- all the owners would have had to do is simply send all the individual letters to the management company for implementation.