Catholic V Roman Catholic

LordSutch

Recently there has been a bit of a spat in the pages of the Irish Times regarding the use of the term 'Roman Catholic' or (RC) for short, as a Protestant I would consider myself a Catholic and a member of the Catholic Church ~ But I am not a 'Roman Catholic' .............

Below is a couple of paragraphs regarding the in-depth reasons for the distinction between 'Catholic' & 'Roman Catholic', and in a nutshell (we Protestants do not take our guidance from Rome) so I am posting this in order to help with any confusion regarding said topic!

Catholic ~ Present-day usage
The term "Catholic Church" is normally associated with the Church that is led by the Roman Pontiff, currently Pope Benedict XVI, and whose over one billion adherents are about half of the estimated 2.2 billion Christians. Other Christian denominations also lay claim to the description "Catholic", including the Eastern Orthodox Church and those Protestant Churches possessing the historic episcopate (bishops).
In some countries, Catholic is included in the official name of a particular parish church, school, hospice or other institution belonging to the R.C. Church, to distinguish it from those of other denominations. For example, the name "St. Mark's Catholic Church" seeks to make clear that it is not an Anglican or Lutheran church. In other countries, such as England, it would be more usual to use "Roman Catholic Church" in this context.
Many of those who apply the term "Catholic Church" to all Christians indiscriminately object to this use of the term to designate what they view as only one denomination within what they see as the "whole" Catholic Church. However, the R.C. Church considers itself to be the Catholic Church, with others as "non-Catholics", and regularly refers to itself as the Catholic Church. This practice is in application of the belief that not all who claim to be Christians are part of the Catholic Church - a belief that goes back to Saint Ignatius of Antioch, the earliest known writer to use the term Catholic Church - and that communion with the Roman Pontiff is essential for membership.
Though normally distinguishing itself from other Churches by calling itself the Catholic Church, it accepts the description "Roman Catholic Church" in its relations with some of them.

r3nu4l

This is one I'm not aware of! In fact I refer to myself as Catholic, meaning 'Roman Catholic'.

It's interesting because if it was such an issue then surely I would have heard about it in the past 2.5 years living in Cambridge where everyone refers to the RC church building as the 'Catholic Church'. Wouldn't at least some of the Anglicans have raised their heads in all that time and said something? Also most Roman Catholic schools in Cambridge simply refer to themselves as a 'Catholic school for Boys/girls', they do not distinguish themselves as Roman Catholic.

I don't think it's that big an issue, perhaps it's an 'ecunemical matter'

Also, I've yet to hear any Protestant in England refer to themselves as Catholic so perhaps this is just a scholarly thing, not meant for contemplation by mere mortals

dulpit

r3nu4l wrote:

I don't think it's that big an issue, perhaps it's an 'ecunemical matter'

Yes!

Scofflaw

r3nu4l wrote:

This is one I'm not aware of! In fact I refer to myself as Catholic, meaning 'Roman Catholic'.

It's interesting because if it was such an issue then surely I would have heard about it in the past 2.5 years living in Cambridge where everyone refers to the RC church building as the 'Catholic Church'. Wouldn't at least some of the Anglicans have raised their heads in all that time and said something? Also most Roman Catholic schools in Cambridge simply refer to themselves as a 'Catholic school for Boys/girls', they do not distinguish themselves as Roman Catholic.

I don't think it's that big an issue, perhaps it's an 'ecunemical matter'

Also, I've yet to hear any Protestant in England refer to themselves as Catholic so perhaps this is just a scholarly thing, not meant for contemplation by mere mortals

Protestant:
"Any Christian belonging to a sect or denomination descending from those that seceded from the Roman Catholic Church at the time of the Reformation. Originally it referred to those who adhered to the doctrine of Martin Luther and who protested in 1529 against the decree of the Diet of Spires commanding submission to the authority of Rome. The word comes from roots meaning to testify or witness in public. The term does not include those churches who broke with Rome either before or after the Reformation. It thus excludes the Orthodox from whom Rome split in 1054 and the Old Catholics who split in 1870. Most Anglicans reject the term, although it was used by the "Protestant Episcopal Church" in the United States, which broke off from the Church of England in 1789. Episcopalians today are split on the use of the term."

The Anglican community is more correctly considered Catholic - its breach with Rome was organisational, not doctrinal.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

> I've yet to hear any Protestant in England refer to themselves as Catholic

The Church of England's Book of Common Prayer has a version of the creed which contains this text:

I believe in the Holy Ghost; The holy Catholick Church; The Communion of Saints;[...]

...together with a further supplication:

That we may be kept in holiness, righteousness, and sobriety, in the fulness of the Catholick Faith, let us entreat the Lord.

Since the 'catholick' has an upper-case 'C', I assume that the CofE is referring to itself as the Roman Catholic Church, but that's presumably rejected by the other Roman Catholic Church.

Can anybody resolve this one?

r3nu4l

As I say, this is all new to me so I can't help. I'm interested in learning more though

LordSutch

robindch wrote:

> I've yet to hear any Protestant in England refer to themselves as Catholic

The Church of England's Book of Common Prayer has a version of the creed which contains this text:...together with a further supplication:Since the 'catholick' has an upper-case 'C', I assume that the CofE is referring to itself as the Roman Catholic Church, but that's presumably rejected by the other Roman Catholic Church.

Can anybody resolve this one?

Yes, I can confirm that the Church of England do indeed recite "I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" and so to do the Church Of Ireland, the Church of Scotland & many other Christian Churches too ............

This does not mean that the Church of England or any other Anglican Church are part of the 'Roman' Catholic tradition (the Pope is not our leader) although we do accept that he is indeed a very good and Holy man.

Refreshing to note that although we still have many doctrinal differences within the broad 'Christian Church', at least we are all beginning to accept & explore those small differences between Catholic/ Roman Catholic/ Protestant & Anglican, and maybe some day all the Christian Churches will all be re-united?

I should also point out to the poster who had lived in Cambridge but never heard of the term 'Roman' Catholic, suffice to say that the 'Roman' has been dropped in everyday ordinary speak and so its only when you are in the confines of the Church or filling out a Census form (RC) meaning Roman Catholic that you will encounter the term ~ good to know what it means though

r3nu4l

ArthurF wrote:

I should also point out to the poster who had lived in Cambridge but never heard of the term 'Roman' Catholic, suffice to say that the 'Roman' has been dropped in everyday ordinary speak and so its only when you are in the confines of the Church or filling out a Census form (RC) meaning Roman Catholic that you will encounter the term ~ good to know what it means though

I moved 25 miles away from Cambridge about 3 months ago but still work in Cambridge Just to clarify, I have heard the term 'Roman Catholic' but I've never heard a Protestant or an Anglican differentiate between 'Catholic' and 'Roman Catholic'. Anytime I've talked about being a 'Catholic' they know I mean Roman Catholic (because I'm from Ireland) but have never sought to correct me.

I do agree that it is nice to explore the small differences and it would be nice to see a unified Christian church but with the split over homosexuality occuring in the Anglican church I doubt that will ever happen.

ISAW

r3nu4l wrote:

As I say, this is all new to me so I can't help. I'm interested in learning more though

Yeah. The Original poster makes some interesting points. The Irish Times does have a big Cof I influence. But anglicans do refer in their Creed to the "Catholic" church.

As regards being interested in learning more:

Catholic means "universal". Romans don't necessarily refer to Roman Catholic Church. In Northern Ireland Catholic usualy means roman Catholic. But the CofI is smaller than other Protestant denominations there though greater in the Whole Island.

I would consider the Catholic element to be the "big 3" Anglicans Orthhodox and Romans. thiese might be regarded as out of communion but (no pun iontended) the romans recognise the Orthodox eucharist as the real presence and the anglican communion ( no pun intended) is only a step from this with consubstiantiation. The Cof E then is more like the Catholic Church of England as opposed to the Catholic Church of Rome and is miles removed from the EU Protestants e.g;. Lutherans and Calvininsts.

The Trinity, and other doctrines are substiantially the same for members of the Catholic church. One rule of thumb I would suggest is thet for romans the center is the Eucharist, for Anglicans the Word and for Orthodox the Spirit.

when I use Catholic I dont usually mean Roman. they also accept ther is ONE church. they dont claim the others are all wrong! AFAIK the Roman position is that the church "Subsists" in the roman version.

r3nu4l

ISAW wrote:

Yeah. hte

Excuse me? Why did you quote me?

EDIT: Ah, I get it, sorry.

ISAW

robindch wrote:

> I've yet to hear any Protestant in England refer to themselves as Catholic

The Church of England's Book of Common Prayer has a version of the creed which contains this text:...together with a further supplication:Since the 'catholick' has an upper-case 'C', I assume that the CofE is referring to itself as the Roman Catholic Church, but that's presumably rejected by the other Roman Catholic Church.

Can anybody resolve this one?

The apostles and nicean creeds: There was substantial differences particularly the Orthodox branch of the church on the words "and the son" i.e. "with the father and the son". there is hte
Three creeds find some ecumenical acknowledgement: the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (also called the Nicene Creed), the Athanasian Creed and the Apostles’ Creed. The apostles’ creed is the baptismal confession of the Roman Catholic community; its original form as a Greek hymn can be traced back to the apostolic tradition (of the 2nd century). The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is the confession of faith of the ecumenical Council of Nicaea in 325, which was later supplemented at the ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381. The Athanasian Creed is a Latin creed whose theological content can be traced back to Athanasius of Alexandria (4th century) but which probably first originated in the 5th century in Spain or southern Gaul. It contains a detailed formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity and Christology (the two-natures doctrine), which was influenced by Augustine. The Churches of the Reformation accepted all three creeds.

ISAW

r3nu4l wrote:

Excuse me? Why did you quote me?

EDIT: Ah, I get it, sorry.

typo now corrected

ISAW

ArthurF wrote:

Yes, I can confirm that the Church of England do indeed recite "I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" and so to do the Church Of Ireland, the Church of Scotland & many other Christian Churches too ............

This does not mean that the Church of England or any other Anglican Church are part of the 'Roman' Catholic tradition (the Pope is not our leader) although we do accept that he is indeed a very good and Holy man.

Another point of inmfo on the Anglicans. One bone of contention is the secession of Bishops. In England they changed a lot of Stuff. the Church of Ireland howecver fairlyu much preserved all the Bishoprics so it would be a very strong claim they have. Rome however sems to have an "all or nothing" approach to "readmitting" (if that is the correct term) Anglicans.

maybe some day all the Christian Churches will all be re-united?

Under Rome or constantinople/ Istambull?

In fact the anglican communion is dwarfed by the other two.

mdebets

A good explanation for the use of Catholic can be found here.
Basically Catholic or catholic if it doesn't refer to Roman Catholic just means that these churches believe to be part of one universal (=catholic) Christian Church.