Licencing, VRT etc

b.harte

I wasn't sure if I could put this under another topic seeing as it covers two fields, so I put it here, sorry...

peasant wrote:

VRT
On importing a motorhome the current rate of VRT is 13.5% of the open market selling price. As there still are few motorhomes to compare with, you are pretty much at the mercy of the VRT people when it comes to defining said OMSP.
If your motorhome has an unladen (ie. just fuel, no driver, no water , no gas, etc, on board) weight of more than 3000 kg, the VRT is only 50 Euro.
So it might be cheaper to buy bigger

My First post here, and a bit of a dumb question to begin with, let's hope it doesn't become a habit of mine

My better half and I are thinking of importing a new motorhome from Germany. We are looking seriously at two models in particular. Both are Autoroller Garage P Models. The semi integrated has flat weight of 2950KG while the Overcab has a flat weight of 3500KG, according to the manufacturers website.
The question I have is a two-parter so any help would be nice.
If we go for the semi integrated it falls a mere 50kg shy of the VRT cut off so would we still be hit for the 13.5% VRT? The overcab at 3500KG is on the upper limit of the cat B Licence, is that correct, the Cat B covers up to an laden weight of 3500KG, so if I were to load my gear into the motorhome it would exceed my licence limits? Have I got that straight, I can buy a car / jeep / van / motorhome and drive it so long as it doesn't exceed the laden weight of 3500?
Details of the motorhomes we're interested in are here:

http://www.reisemobil-discount.de/

and here:

http://www.rollerteam.it/default.asp?lingua=eng

Any idea if this is a good price including the increased vat rate?

Bertie

Terrontress

Hi b.harte,

I wouldn't wish to encourage you to break the law but the VRT will not test your vehicle's weight.

If you bring it to a weighbridge, for example those operated by Roadstone, they will take a simple measurement and then this can be used for tax purposes.

The reason for this is that the vehicle's papers often simply quote the weight of the chassis and cab.

Get it weighed and see if it is over 3,000 kg. It could well be over 50kg.

b.harte

Me?
Break a law?
Seriously, that's good news. I thought they (Nice VRT Folk) went on the chassis plate or some such "official" documentation.
Great new anyway.
Thanks.
Bertie

peasant

Hi and welcome !

To answer the easy part of your question first:
From the department of transport website:

Vehicles (other than motorcycles, mopeds, work vehicles or land tractors) having a design gross vehicle weight not exceeding 3,500 kg

The key here is "design gross vehicle weight". So even if your camper fully laden only weighs 3400 kg, as soon as it says in the paperwork (or on the plaque with the engine and chassis numbers) that it is designed to carry 3501 or more kgs you can't drive it with a cat B licence, you need C or C1 instead.

As this is the case in most European countries, all manufacturers offer a lot of their models with a gross vehicle weight of 3500 kg to accomodate all the drivers on B licences.

Which leads to the unladen weight as mentioned on websites and other manufacturers publications.

Customers want a lot of mod cons in their motorhomes these days, while still having reserves for carrying passengers and lots of gear ...all within the limits of 3.5 tons. Hence manufacturers tend to be a bit optimistic when publishing unladen weights. They take the cheapest model in the range, without any extras like the stronger, heavier engine, awnings, ovens, 2 gas cylinders etc ...weigh that and post that weight as the weight for all models (adding a little * and telling you in the smallprint that unladen weights may vary according to spec)

Which means in short that the unladen weight of your chosen camper in your chosen spec may well be over 3 tons ...which is good for VRT, bad for bringing things along.

The only way to make sure of it though, is to make the unladen weight of > 3 tons part of your contract before you buy and weighing your yoke before you hand over any money. Most dealers will understand, once you explain to them about VRT.

There is another problem though:
In Germany for example, it is now law that the manufacturer has to specify the weight "ready for use". This is the unladen weight plus full tanks of water, 90% full tank of diesel, one full gas cylinder + 75 kg for a driver.

Do not confuse this weight with the one the VRT want to see, they want to weigh your vehicle unladen ...without any ballast and without you sitting in it.
(or at least they should, if they know their stuff).

With a B licence this puts you into a bit of a connundrum. If you make sure that your unladen vehicle is over 3 tons, once you have all your kit in it, you may have to leave your wife at home because you're over the 3.5 tons already. If you keep your eyes on maximising load, you will most certainly stay under 3 tons unladen and pay through the nose in VRT.

You could play it safe and get a bigger vehicle and the C1 license to go with it, you could try and cheat on the scales (and possibly get caught), you could drive around constantly overladen (and also get caught, fined and possibly lose insurance cover for driving without the appropriate licence) ...it's a tough decision to make.



The link to the dealer you have provided is for Palmowski, one of the biggest motorhome supermarkets in Germany. They have great prices due to their buying power, but from what I hear their service isn't the best and they need to be kept on their toes and everything has to best be agreed in writing only.
The main advantage is, they sell so many motorhomes for export, they can offer you the service of buying ex VAT, which makes things considerably easier, as you don't have to go through forests of paperwork to claim it back afterwards.

You have a a few tough decisions ahead of you

Good luck!

(and feel free to ask if you have any more questions)

peasant

Terrontress wrote:

Hi b.harte,

I wouldn't wish to encourage you to break the law but the VRT will not test your vehicle's weight.

If you bring it to a weighbridge, for example those operated by Roadstone, they will take a simple measurement and then this can be used for tax purposes.

The reason for this is that the vehicle's papers often simply quote the weight of the chassis and cab.

Get it weighed and see if it is over 3,000 kg. It could well be over 50kg.

In my case they insisted that they be present for the weighing, it was part of the general pre-licensing inspection and they actually checked in all the cupboards (for sandbags ) and I had to show them that the water tank was empty.

On the other hand, I had to tell the apprentice that they sent along with me to the scales to get out of the vehicle in order to get an unladen weight ...he wasn't too keen, seenashow it was raining

pounder770

My van falls well below the 3 ton rule....My local revenue guy(who was in fairness most courteous and helpful) did inform me that it would need to be weighed at the harbourmaster's weighbridge,with a member from his office present.
they then however had the audacity to tell me that a 1996 transit self-build camper was worth 14000 euro,and ask me for 1890 euro before i appealed the valuation!!!! i did get a small refund on appeal though:)

stapeler

A VRT person from Navan initially told me to go off and get mine weighed myself. Then they insisted an inspector had to be present.
Initially hadn't a clue what they were doing but the central office in Clonmel put them straight.
I was a few Kgs shy to the 3000kg so added an awing, full tank of diesel, fiamma wheel blocks, fire extinguisher and a few other bits. Worked fine.
When I went to tax it the Motor Tax office they insisted on viewing it to ensure it was a motorhome??? Surely the different state departments could talk to each other without having to create more work for themselves.

PM me if I can answer any othe questions.

wexford12

I have a few friends in the VRT office in rosslare and im sorry to tell you but they have a list of campers and what the weight should be.If its one that they dont have they will weigh it and they know all the tricks "full tank bricks water in every pipe etc etc etc".I was looking at bringing one in and it does go on weight but also height and maybe lenth,you should get full details of the one your looking at and ring them to check before you get a bill.Lots of vans brought in had to pay when the owner had been told the wrong weight just to get the sale.Remember the german sales man knows all this.

peasant

A good (legal) way to push the unladen weight over the limit is to accessorise right from the start.
Get that awning, that bike rack, that motorbike carrier, the solar panels, the extra battery, the satellite system ...everything that is permantly fixed to the vehicle falls into the unladen weight ...and on a new-ish vehicle these accessories are still cheaper than the VRT

That list in Rosslare couldn't possibly cover all makes and all types with all combinations of possible accessories.
You'd be very hard pressed to find two campers out there that are exactly the same.

And only hand over your money after you've weighed the unladen camper yourself (over in Germany) and make the 3 ton unladen weight and the weighing part of the sales contract.

But, as said above, always keep an eye on max weight (licence) and payload.
Some european countries are VERY strict when comes to driving around in overloaded vehicles. There are big penalties out there for that, and these countries have mobile weighing stations and do regular checks on the main transit routes. (Switzerland being a prime example, closely followed by Spain and France)

I've heard of a few cases where, on top of paying a huge fine, unsuspecting tourists had to unload half their vehicle at the side of the road, leave stuff behind and/or even send passengers home by train or plane :eek:

Rolex

Is it acceptable to the VRT people to have two leisure batteries?

peasant

Can't see why that should be a problem ...provided that the battery is connected and actually works and isn't just thrown in as ballast. After all ...a second leisure battery gives independece from mains electricity for longer ...and that's what a camper is all about.


On the other hand ...if you have to rely on a 20 kg battery to bring you over the "magic" three ton mark, you might be cutting it a bit fine. Not all truck scales are precision instruments and they easily swing 50 or more kg either side of the truth.

In my case, got my yoke weighed at a recently calibrated scales in Germany, came in at 3085 kg empty. The local coal merchants scales here (that the VRO uses) decided it weighed either 3225 or 3250 kg (no scaling inbetween).

That's a big difference (and I still don't know what it actually weighs)

Rolex

Thank Peasant,

I'm actually short 60kgs to get over the 3 ton. I have the awning and the bike rack. I have stuck in the extra battery so that probably leaves me short about 40kgs. Any suggestions?

Wishbone Ash

peasant wrote:

that it is designed to carry 3501 or more kgs you can't drive it with a cat B licence, you need C or C1 instead....... ..........You could play it safe and get a bigger vehicle and the C1 license to go with it

I would advise anyone who wishes to do a category C1 to go the whole hog and do the category C instead and you will get the C1 with it. The waiting times for the rigid truck are usually only several weeks. The other advantage is that you will generally have to utilise the instructor's truck which means that you are accompanied by a qualified driver and less likely to develop bad habits. A rigid truck licence may come in handy in the future.


A friend recently purchased a 4,500kg motorhome. He was going to apply for the C1 but following my advise, he went for the C instead and has a test next week.

peasant

Rolex wrote:

Thank Peasant,

I'm actually short 60kgs to get over the 3 ton. I have the awning and the bike rack. I have stuck in the extra battery so that probably leaves me short about 40kgs. Any suggestions?

Any further weight would have to be permanently fixed to the vhicle.

That doesn't leave many options.
AC, power inverter, solar panels?

All bloody expensive and not really necessary.

Are you sure it's 60 kg short (without the driver, without water, without gas but with a full tank of diesel)? you could be further off (or nearer to) the mark than you think.

Do you have actual weighing data?

Rolex

Hi Peasant,

I have access to the weighbridge the VRT people use. I have been there several times after adjusting the weight. I would think I'm fairly accurate in being short the 60kgs. Maybe a motorbike carrier of heavy steel will do the trick.

peasant

Well ...you could also weld a 70 kg steel plate under the vehicle to "protect" the tank or whatever

But basically I'd say very much depends on your VRO people on the day.
There is anecdotal evidence of some of them not having a clue and never checking for full water tanks or gas cylinders (IMO the gas cylinder(s) should be part of the unladen weight anyway ...after all what's a camper without gas?) as well as stories of people being very exact and pernickety.

If I was a VRO officer and you arrived on my weighing scales at 3002 kgs ...I would check every nook and cranny for stuff that shouldn't be there and thus secure my months wages through your VRT payment

You're in their bad books already anyway ...from what I gather you've had that vehicle for quite some time without presenting it to the VRO (which you should have done immediatedly after your arrival).

So ...I'd say it really could go either way ...even if you "make" the 3000 kg

Rolex

A 70kg steel plate....that sounds perfect..it will protect the water tanks and increase my chances of survival should I cross a minefield. I hav the van in the country less than two weeks...is that considerwed a long time before producing it?

TigerTim

A heavy trolley jack - borrow one from a friendly garage.
Can you leave a gas tank in. If so get an empty one, remove the top & fill with something heavy like wet sand, cement or even some lead thrown in.

T.

peasant

Rolex

Well ...the law says you have to re-register the vehicle (and present it to your local VRO) on the next working day following your arrival.
Not doing so increases suspicion, at least

TigerTim

One *could* do something like that, but that would be cheating. I don't know what the consequences would be if one was to be found out (which isn't entirely unlikely) ...but I'd imagine there'd be some consequences.




Overall, I'd say we should keep suggestions legal (this is a public forum after all !)

I'll now go and flaggelate myself for mentioning the 70 kg "protection plate"... (if only in jest.)

Rolex

Thanks Tiger Tim and Peasant.

Both your ideas were excellent....now all I have to do is decide to cheat or not to cheat:D But seeing as the whole VRT system is so fair why would anyone want to cheat:p

Benny-c

Like many posters I am seriously considering importing my first motorhome from Germany, it is unlikely that I will make the 3000kg mark;

Where do I find an approximate OMSP of a few I am interested in?

Has anyone in this forum have any stories of what people were charged for VRT?

All help greatly appreciated......:)

Benny

Colmdwyer

peasant wrote: »

A good (legal) way to push the unladen weight over the limit is to accessorise right from the start.
Get that awning, that bike rack, that motorbike carrier, the solar panels, the extra battery, the satellite system ...everything that is permantly fixed to the vehicle falls into the unladen weight ...and on a new-ish vehicle these accessories are still cheaper than the VRT

That list in Rosslare couldn't possibly cover all makes and all types with all combinations of possible accessories.
You'd be very hard pressed to find two campers out there that are exactly the same.

And only hand over your money after you've weighed the unladen camper yourself (over in Germany) and make the 3 ton unladen weight and the weighing part of the sales contract.

But, as said above, always keep an eye on max weight (licence) and payload.
Some european countries are VERY strict when comes to driving around in overloaded vehicles. There are big penalties out there for that, and these countries have mobile weighing stations and do regular checks on the main transit routes. (Switzerland being a prime example, closely followed by Spain and France)

I've heard of a few cases where, on top of paying a huge fine, unsuspecting tourists had to unload half their vehicle at the side of the road, leave stuff behind and/or even send passengers home by train or plane :eek:

Hi Peasant

Going to Germany to buy a camper myself and want to make sure it is over the 3000Kg.

The obvious thing to me is to try and get a van rated at 3500KG max. weight and make sure it is over the 3000KG unladen.

However, there are a lot of vans rated at 2800KG, 3100KG and 3200KG max. weight (Gesamtgewicht)

Is it possible to get these to comply??

The problem as I see it is that if you do get them over the 3000Kg are you breaking the max. weight rule.

Will a 2800KG max. weight van, for example be illegal here in Ireland if it comes in over 3000KG?

Or Is there scope for manouvre with the 3100KG and 3200KG max weight vans?

peasant

Some of these smaller vans could be uprated with stronger springs / bigger brakes, some even just with the stroke of a pen in the according papers by the appropriate authority.

But I don't really see this type of van work for our 3 ton rule. They are reasonably light to start with, so you'd probably have to add lead bricks somewhere to make them reach the 3 tons on the day (which would be illegal)

Or you accessorise them to the hilt, so that you have genuine 3 tons empty and then you're already over their rated weight or so close to it that you can't bring anyone. I'm yet to experience a weight check on the roads here, so you might get away with an overweight vehicle for quite a while ...but I wouldn't advise it.

Firstly it is just not safe and secondly your insurance might use the issue against you in case of an accident / payout.

Colmdwyer

Hi Peasant, yeah I think you are right. Best to start off with 3500Kg rated van.

Also, one other thing .... is it necessary for export purposes to have current HU and AU TUV certs?

loobylou

TUV must be up to date before export will be allowed.