Article: More than 20 injured in fog-stricken Kildare traffic accident

murphaph

More than 20 injured in fog-stricken Kildare traffic accident
27/03/2007 - 12:52:18

Massive traffic disruption has been caused by motorway pile-ups that has left more than 20 people injured in Co Kildare.

A fleet of ambulances are at the scene of one crash at Ballymany, outside Newbridge which involved almost two dozen cars.

Fog has also caused severe traffic disruption and another pile-up at the M7/M9 intersection.

HSE spokeswoman Dympna Bracken said a major emergency plan has been put into operation at Naas General Hospital to deal with some of the injured.

“The first four patients have arrived at the hospital, three walking wounded and one injured.

MayMay

Oh my God that's awful!! The fog is really bad here today alright.:(

Wishbone Ash

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055071188

Mikmon

Thats tragic.

There will inevitably follow a post mortem and some reactionary proposals from the government to improve lighting on that stretch of road.

Two weeks ago I was driving along the M7 in the dark, rain and fog. I know it wasn't dark at nine o clock this morning but I think lighting was part of the problem. It is lethal. Only the intersections with major towns like Newbridge and Naas are lit up properly. You have to rely on barely visible cats eyes in between. Failing this I was looking for the lights of the car ahead of me to guide me along!

I just don't know why we can't do things properly from the off in this country. This is yet another example of the malaise of bad planning and shortsightedness that has dogged many Irish construction projects in recent years from the Port Tunnel to the M50.

Of course drivers themselves have to take a portion of the blame for this mornings pile up. From the little driving I do on the countries roads, I have noticed an increasing level of impatience and agressivness from other drivers. While I drive along observing the speed limit I look in my rear view mirror to see another car dangerously close to my bumper driven by some red faced maniac trying to get past me. This happened three or four times in the single laned stretch of road leading into Abbeyleix. I could only let these maniacs pass me while I pulled into the hard shoulder.

The M7 motorway starts soon after this and the slow lane provides some refuge for sane drivers.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Calina

Mikmon wrote:

There will inevitably follow a post mortem and some reactionary proposals from the government to improve lighting on that stretch of road.

Overhead lighting doesn't necessarily mean things are okay at surface level driving in fog. It's not that long ago that I had a horrific time along the M1 trying to see the surface of the road in front of me, even allowing for the roadlighting there.

Ultimately, it would be more effective if drivers drove with the required care and attention in fog and rain. Unfortunately, they have an overelevated view of their ability and of their car's ability to stop. Driving in the rain on the M7 tends to make me quite nervous on occasion. Unfortunately, changing driver attitudes is difficult to do because most people take the view that it is not them who is the problem.

WhiteAp

Mikmon wrote:

Of course drivers themselves have to take a portion of the blame for this mornings pile up.

Fog doesn't crash cars, people do. If people put on their fog lights, drove MUCH slower and left enough space ahead of them I am sure this [terrible accident] would not have been so severe.

Slightly off topic, but you will notice that the general tendency in Ireland is to never / rarely blame the driver. You will read in the Monday papers "On Saturday night an 18 year old lost control of the car at 3am". You don't lose control of cars. You go too fast / drive dangerously. It makes it sound like the car has a mind of its own.

frizzefreckles

I was driving into Newbridge at the time this accident happened and I swear i couldn't see past the bonnet of the car. I'm an experienced driver but I was scared driving this morning. The fog was dreadful and yet there were cars zooming past me doing around 70mph and had no lights on. Unfortunately I wasn't surprised when I heard about the accident.

talkingclock

Garda says: "Our opinion would be that they [drivers] had ample visibility if they would adjust their driving."
Meself says: That should be common sense but maybe I'm expecting to much. Those kind of crashs might be the result of a non-existent proper driving test...

"Witnesses spoke of red brake lights suddenly appearing out of the thick fog, ..." Yes surprise! Red light's approaching you suddenly from the front! Spooky! You're driving just to fast!

Zebra3

Yep, the Gardai slated drivers on the Six-One News.

Simple solution is to jail people who drive recklessly.

MLM

Regular warning signs updating motorists about road conditions and adjustable speed limits are needed on our motorways. They exist in most other European countries. I suspect most drivers would not be aware of a safe speed for driving in fog.

dudara

I drove that road sometime at the start of the year, and the fog was atrocious. You could barely see the lights overhead.

We were driving somewhere around 90-100 km/h, as it really was too dangerous to go the full 120 km/h and yet people were still zooming past us at full speed with 2-5 cars often in a straight row, one right after the other.

People would pass us and literally 5 seconds they'd be covered by fog again and you couldn't see them.

And yet, people were still racing past. I'm not at all surprised that that accident happened today. I'm only just surprised it hasn't happened sooner

Pineapple stu

Driving at 90/100kph in that condition is appaling driving, you should have being going slower, 120kph is not a target, its a maximum. Its simple you drive to the condition of the road. Im suprised that this doesnt happen every day considering the way vehicles tail gate at speed

WhiteAp

dudara wrote:

I drove that road sometime at the start of the year, and the fog was atrocious. You could barely see the lights overhead.

We were driving somewhere around 90-100 km/h

Sorry to give out, but that is scarily way too fast for fog, especially if it was "atrocious"...

Some quotes from other countries about maximum speeds in fog:

Germany (http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/com/en/continental/portal/themes/press_services/media_service/ms_2004_11_02_1_en.html):

"When fog restricts vision to 50 meters, the maximum speed permitted also drops to 50 km/h. Even then, the stopping distance in an emergency is at least forty meters," warns Wolfgang Müller, traffic expert at the German Automobile Association in Lower Saxony / Saxony-Anhalt.

China (http://english.people.com.cn/english/200102/22/eng20010222_63101.html):

While vehicular traffic on the airport expressway was limited to a maximum speed of 40 kilometers per hour.

USA (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs19thru22.htm):

California has a “Basic Speed Law.” This law means you may never drive faster than is safe for current conditions. For example, if you are driving 45 mph (70 km/h) in a 55 mph speed zone during a dense fog, you could be cited for driving “too fast for conditions.”

I'm sure we have some limit in our wonderful rules of the road booklet?? Anyone?
Otherwise, I'd side with the Germans and say anything over 50 km/h and you are risking it...

Imposter

What to people think that 2 second thing you all learned about driving was about? If you can only see 5m and there is nothing in your way then you should travel that 5m in 2 seconds.

Chris_533976

I remember being driven along the N20 in fog awhile back. This is a bendy road with little/no cats eyes etc. It was terrible. Trundling along at about 40kmh (no faster on this road in the fog, believe me). It was alright when we had another set of brake lights to follow, but being at the head of the convoy was scary. If we had pulled into a driveway, I reckon people would have followed us in!

That said, most people were being very sensible and going very slowly. Of course theres the one idiot going 100kmh (stupid on parts of that road in the day at full visability, not in the fog at night).

MrPudding

WhiteAp wrote:

F

Slightly off topic, but you will notice that the general tendency in Ireland is to never / rarely blame the driver. You will read in the Monday papers "On Saturday night an 18 year old lost control of the car at 3am". You don't lose control of cars. You go too fast / drive dangerously. It makes it sound like the car has a mind of its own.

i have to disagree, if it said the car lost control then I would agree, but it says the driver lost control.

If I told you I lost a tenner would you think I was trying to blame the tenner for jumping out of my wallet?

Back on topic, there does seem to be a very strong feeling in drivers in Ireland that they are much better driveres than they actually are. Added to this there seems to be an additional attitude a lot of people have that their time is more valuable than the others around them.

This seems to lead to a lot of people driving well above their skill level as well as being inconsiderate tossers. Running lights, excessive speed (by this I mean inappropriate for the conditions, skill or vehicle,) general aggressive road manners & tailgating (irrespective of conditions) are just a few examples of this behaviour. Yesterday pileup was most likely caused by several of these traits.

MrP

BrianD

Speaking of running lights and a lack of awareness amongst drivers of their surroundings, I saw a motorist run a red light while a Garda on a motor bike was parked directly in front of him watching! The driver was already stopped at the light (RH filter lane) and decided he no longer wanted to wait.

So if they do this they are unlikely to be affected by early warning weather systems etc.

stevedublin

Imposter wrote:

What to people think that 2 second thing you all learned about driving was about? If you can only see 5m and there is nothing in your way then you should travel that 5m in 2 seconds.

That would be 9 km/h :rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

If it's unsafe to drive, then don't?

Imposter

stevedublin wrote:

That would be 9 km/h :rolleyes:

Right then you explain your understanding of the concept of stopping distance?

mackerski

MLM wrote:

Regular warning signs updating motorists about road conditions and adjustable speed limits are needed on our motorways. They exist in most other European countries. I suspect most drivers would not be aware of a safe speed for driving in fog.

You do not need matrix signs and adjustable speed limits to tell you it's foggy and to show you how far ahead your visibility reaches. Every driver has an obligation to drive appropriately to the conditions.

Matrix signs and automatic speed limits are used on the back of existing incidents (accidents or jams ahead) or road conditions the driver might not be able to spot (ice, slippy roads). By all means use them to alert of fog ahead. But you can't send out the message that a driver can hurtle through a peasoup just because no sign told him he shouldn't.

corktina

its not as simple as slowing down as if you slow down too much you could be causing another hazzard.
I wonder how many of those involved were on Provisional Licenses? This type of incident is of course one of the reasons why inexperianced motorists shouldnt be on a Motorway.

Isnt it ironic that many cars had no fog lights lit, when half the posers on the road are running around with them turned on to look cool when it isnt foggy.


It's a tragedy for those injured and the Girl who died, my symapthy to them and their families, it can happen so quick cant it and change peopels lives forever.

Capt'n Midnight

WhiteAp wrote:

I'm sure we have some limit in our wonderful rules of the road booklet?? Anyone?

S.I. No. 294 of 1964.
ROAD TRAFFIC GENERAL BYE-LAWS, 1964.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI294Y1964.html

General obligation regarding speed

18. A driver shall not drive at a speed exceeding that which will enable him to halt the vehicle within the distance he can see to be clear.

Fog changes perception of distances. In fog treat every thing as being TWICE AS CLOSE as it appears. Maybe it's because you see less of the object or lack other visual clues, but in fog just because you can see something doesn't mean you will get the same reaction time as you would normally get.

Stark

corktina wrote:

its not as simple as slowing down as if you slow down too much you could be causing another hazzard.

As Capt'n Midnight has stated, you must drive at a speed that allows you to stop in the distance you see to be clear. While I agree that drivers who drive significantly slower than this speed are a hazard in themselves, you can't drive slower than the safe speed just because crazy bastards behind you decide they want to drive significantly faster. The best thing you can do is have your dipped lights and your rear fog light on so there's some chance they'll see you before running into the back of you.

If you're forced to stop for whatever reason, switch on your hazard lights.

corktina wrote:

I wonder how many of those involved were on Provisional Licenses? This type of incident is of course one of the reasons why inexperianced motorists shouldnt be on a Motorway.

Probably not as many as you would like to think. A full licence isn't worth the cheap inkjet paper it's printed on when it comes to motorway driving. My test involved weaving in and out of housing estates and a short trip up the 60kph section of the Finglas Road. Hardly preparation for driving on a 120kph road. (And probably why many people think it's acceptable to merge at 60kph regardless of what the traffic with right of way on the road is doing).

corktina

well....if someone can run into the back of a Fire engine responding to an emergency hard enough to kill themselves how likely are people to see rear fogs when they dont seeing flashing blue strobes...its a nightmare, too fast and you might hit something...too slow something might hit you. Theres no easy answer...its a bit of a lottery.....are there any fog warning lights and flashing speed limits on our motorways? and if not (i cant recall seeing any) why not?

Oh btw, did you hear the advice from the emergency services? dont stop on the hard shoulder under any circumstances.....to allow a route for them.....

Capt'n Midnight

Mikmon wrote:

There will inevitably follow a post mortem and some reactionary proposals from the government to improve lighting on that stretch of road.
...
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Back in the Dublin smogs in the 80's you couldn't see more three street lights, but I know someone who swears he could see stars if he looked straight up.

So lights would just give a false sense of security as you vision might be drawn to the short section of visible road ?