Setting up a "record label"

Frankiestylee

I often see unsigned bands releasing their own material on their own "record label", but how many of these are actually registered businesses etc and how many are just some words on a cd?

I'm asking because I'm planning on releasing my own work this year and I'm curious.

Has anybody gone down the route of setting up a real company in order to release music, and if so how is it done? Is it necessary?


Apologies if this is the wrong location for this thread, I wasn't too sure where to put it.

TelePaul

Frankiestylee wrote:

I often see unsigned bands releasing their own material on their own "record label", but how many of these are actually registered businesses etc and how many are just some words on a cd?

I'm asking because I'm planning on releasing my own work this year and I'm curious.

Has anybody gone down the route of setting up a real company in order to release music, and if so how is it done? Is it necessary?


Apologies if this is the wrong location for this thread, I wasn't too sure where to put it.

Interesting question. I don't know of many truly 'indy' bands that are making it in the big time. It seems the current trend is to record a demo in your bedroom, put it up on MySpace, gather a 'cult' following and play increasingly larger gigs on the basis of that. I imagine THAT is when they get snapped up by a label.

Though look at the current climate. Home recording has eliminated the A & R man. I think certainly in Ireland, the music scene is pretty overcrowded. It's because any guy with a laptop and guitar can circulate his music via MPEG LAYER 3. So where does the demo come in? Where's the pitch to a label?

I think that if you want to register a label, it'd be alot of work. And as a label you'd be repsonsible for more than just releasing your music...you'd have to mix, master, promote it, circulate it...handle all costs too. Obviously on a small scale that's all manageable...but if your stuff is good you're probably gonna attract the attention of an estbalished label - big or small - anyway.

I think it all depends. It depends on the stage you're at and how serious you are about extolling a living from the music business. If you think you have a shot as the next arctic monkeys, throw your Cubase mix up on MySpace. If you think you have a shot in the mainstream - presumably on the basis of gigs, gigs and more gigs - get an agent and get some serious studio time.

Just my ramblings.

Doctor J

I'd have to disagree with pretty much all of that, that is just not grounded in the real world, sorry man, you're neglecting the sheer ludicrous amounts of graft involved in getting anywhere in the trade. A&R still exists on a grand scale and it's going nowhere, I don't see how a demo recorded in a bedroom can magically remove the need for people whose job it is to scout for bands/artists to sign/shelve. The bands who "make it" are the bands who put in hard work at marketing and promoting themselves combined with a modicum of talent. Record companies are not insterested in good music, they are interested in selling CDs and DVDs. When a band shows potential to be a viable economic investment with a real potential to return a profit, they have a chance of being signed, should that be the path they choose to follow. Putting songs on myspace and expecting to get signed off it is bloody ridiculous and it doesn't happen in the real world, despite what the Arctic Monkey's team of publicists might say. Myspace is a pile of **** and there are a million **** bands on it, it's not a great way to get ahead and, if ever it had a time, that time is gone. Bands don't get signed on the strength of unsolicited demos posted to record labels either, it's another stupid myth about the record industry with no grounding in reality. The percentage of demos which actually get listened to is miniscule. Anyway, back on topic...

Frankie, realisitically, what are you aiming for here? Are you looking to turn in a profit by shifting 1000-2000 cds? I'd say forget it. You'll make more money for substantially less work just doing a few well populated gigs and that's where I'd be spending my money and energy. Are you just looking to give yourself something to promote and get punters through the door at gigs? It baffles me why people try to take on the record industry on it's own terms - ie trying to compete in the likes of HMV, etc against industry backed CD's with marketing budgets and you don't want to be looking at boxes upon boxes of CDs in your bedroom You don't really need to set up a company to put out a CD or make money available for paid download, should you choose to do so. How are you looking to release it, CD or download?

Talk to Trev and Niall on gigsmart, they've a lot of experience in this area with the GS comps and with MGS, talk to Gar from 20BE, they put out their own cd last year too and use the likes of www.cdbaby.com

frobisher

I think both of the above posts have merit. My advice would be to do whatever you chose suits you best. I have been strongly considering releasing some music myself and if a record label came knocking I'd find it hard to say no, BUT, I'd certainly rather try and do it on my own first. If you do it yourself you are taking on a task of potentially monumental proportions. But if you let a label do it the chances are that even with their existing distribution, well oiled PR cogs and thick wallet that nothing will happen anyway. Getting signed is more like a path into art college than a path to a successful career. And how many art students become successful artists? Exactly. I have seen many people get signed and invest 2 years and all their hopes and aspirations into a deal that sees them dropped before they ever even release a record. I also know guys that have had one number one Irish albums and toured the world and all they have to show for it is an ego that won't let them get a regualr job, few nice guitars and an empty bank balance. It's tough out there.

What I would say though is that if you feel the need to do it then you shouldn't let anything stand in your way and ignore anyone who tells you different (Especially other musicians. And I REALLY mean that). Because the only thing that will make it work enough that you can make a living from releasing records is sheer beligerince. It's probably more important to success than the quality of the music you have when you start out. You also need to educate yourself on how to do business. And that means learning how you are expected to play the game but then finding your own route through it all. Even on an everyday level, finding success in any business can require alot of creativity and individuality. Don't be fooled by all those suits, those boys have big brains!

In regards to whether a band's record label is a real company or just a word on the back of a CD, I'd say it's usually the latter for local releases. Think carefully about setting up a limited company, they are easy and cheap to set up but over night things change like your tax responsibilities. And if you don't live up to them your name will be published and you could possibly be prevented from becoming a company director in the future again. You'd very well advised to get a good accountant should you choose to go that route. I'd also strongly suggest looking at the business expansion scheme.

The one caveat here is that the above advice comes from learning what not to do rather than doing the right thing. I've released an independent local record that did well, had a major label manager offer me a 7 album deal, been promised the world by producers, been courted by the big indies in meeting after meeting and was even once asked to go to a meeting with a large London label based on an unsolicited demo :eek: :eek: :eek: If I could sum up any advice in as short a space as possible it would be to write until you get very good, get a great live show together and gig lots, record lots until you get a great recording together, take that recording to the labels/industry figures that you'd LIKE to work with, if they say yes give it a bash, if they say no then get a plan together for financing and releasing that same recording yourself. And then fall back on the business degree that you got while the rest of the band were working in Tower Records. Go forth and multiply.

TelePaul

Doctor J wrote:

I'd have to disagree with pretty much all of that, that is just not grounded in the real world, sorry man, you're neglecting the sheer ludicrous amounts of graft involved in getting anywhere in the trade. A&R still exists on a grand scale and it's going nowhere, I don't see how a demo recorded in a bedroom can magically remove the need for people whose job it is to scout for bands/artists to sign/shelve. The bands who "make it" are the bands who put in hard work at marketing and promoting themselves combined with a modicum of talent. Record companies are not insterested in good music, they are interested in selling CDs and DVDs. When a band shows potential to be a viable economic investment with a real potential to return a profit, they have a chance of being signed, should that be the path they choose to follow. Putting songs on myspace and expecting to get signed off it is bloody ridiculous and it doesn't happen in the real world, despite what the Arctic Monkey's team of publicists might say. Myspace is a pile of **** and there are a million **** bands on it, it's not a great way to get ahead and, if ever it had a time, that time is gone. Bands don't get signed on the strength of unsolicited demos posted to record labels either, it's another stupid myth about the record industry with no grounding in reality. The percentage of demos which actually get listened to is miniscule. Anyway, back on topic...

I agree that MySpace is a pile of **** but I wouldn't be so quick to neglect the potential advertising power it holds. I didn't say you'd get signed straight from MySpace but it cuts out alot of the groundwork and initial gigging hell involved with generating a home crowd following. And whether you are signed to a label or not, you can certainly gig on the power of a MySpace or Bebo Bands following, I've seen it done.

Technology has created something it always creates, disintermediation. Whether you think it's in the form of online advertising, music vending, music production, technology has cut out alot of the middleground. Podcasts are just another illustration of my point. Bebo bands, Soundclick pages, they connect artists with listeners and ultimately satisfy a consumer need. It's just another means to an end.

Doctor J

Nobody can dispute the importance of technology, nor the new avenues it opens up to bands (who sadly seem to ignore its almost limitless potential and lump themselves in with everyone else in largely predicatable and generic web formats, your bebos, myspaces, etc, entirley unimaginative and as dull as most of the music), but merely having a myspace page or a website will get you absolutely nowhere. There are millions of bands on myspace. So what. Have you heard even 1% of them? Of course not. They are a means for people to have their music heard, but if nobody is aware of the band it isn't going to attract listeners on its own. Far from it. To bring it back to an older analogy, what is the point in having your song played on the radio if noone is listening? Success depends entirely on getting people to hear what you'e doing, not waiting for them to stumble upon it. Bands who were too lazy, stupid, whatever to promote themselves back in the day won't have any success if they have a myspace site and expect people to turn up to gigs. The same gig hell exists, and the same kinds of bands are the ones who are playing those gigs, regardless of digitisation and the internet.

The cast iron truth of it all is this: bands who work hard at marketing themselves and their brand are the ones who move on. Bands who lazily think they are bigger than the big J and who expect people to magically find their music and think it's the soundtrack to their lives are the ones who get nowhere. Myspace and Bebo are very small means to a very small end, they are a tool whose potential is related entirely to the work ethic of the band. They are definitely not a gateway to success and should never be viewed as such. Behind any success story in any medium is a fierce work ethic, this hasn't changed because of myspace or bebo, nor will it. Any band who records something and expects great things to happen merely by lumping it up on myspace might as well not record at all.

None of this, however, is related to what Frankie is asking.

Frankiestylee

Thanks for the long replies guys, definitly words of wisdom in there.
Though I've heard the whole "things you have to do to make it" bit so many times when other people were releasing material, it's more the financial aspect of the whole thing. Like the tax responsibilities etc. I've set up a "record label" before in my youth when I was oh so naiive, and it was basically just me making a website, designing a logo, getting some letterheads done, contacting some bands I knew and running a gig, but nothing more ever happened and just as easily as it was created it disappeared.

Now, I'm sure I'm going to release something this year, I determined to do it, and I know my best mate's band are on the same wavelength. I guess it could start as a fictious company and then change into a real one, but I'm in my early 20's so if the government come knocking I really don't think I can use the old "I'm young and ignorant" defence.

Neurojazz

Musicians get tax exempt status beneath certain levels of earnings in Ireland (Southern as far as i know).

http://www.thestage.co.uk/news/newsstory.php/5857 - a littel article there about the big acts getting hammered - you just need to ask your local office where you would stand.

Labels are hard work, my working partner is setting up all the mechanics (publishing etc...) and it eats up 90% of his time until we can get someone else to run it.

MySpace is a really simple way to manage a fan base with mailouts etc if you don't have php/asp skills to do your'e own web.

Good Luck!

Doctor J

Frankiestylee wrote:

Thanks for the long replies guys, definitly words of wisdom in there.
Though I've heard the whole "things you have to do to make it" bit so many times when other people were releasing material, it's more the financial aspect of the whole thing. Like the tax responsibilities etc. I've set up a "record label" before in my youth when I was oh so naiive, and it was basically just me making a website, designing a logo, getting some letterheads done, contacting some bands I knew and running a gig, but nothing more ever happened and just as easily as it was created it disappeared.

Now, I'm sure I'm going to release something this year, I determined to do it, and I know my best mate's band are on the same wavelength. I guess it could start as a fictious company and then change into a real one, but I'm in my early 20's so if the government come knocking I really don't think I can use the old "I'm young and ignorant" defence.

Talk to Trev man. They had to go legit, as it were, after the first comp when the taxman started sniffing around. Below a certain level you can get away without declaring but if you're going with a full on commercial release you're wiser to keep everything above board. Plan every aspect of your release and I'd say spend whatever you can on marketing and PR and schmoozing.

counterpointaud

I agree with the Doc on this one... it's not for the faint of heart, or light of wallet.

Trick is: DON'T USE YOUR OWN MONEY.

Nathan

Frankiestylee

Ah, but you kinda have to use your own money to get the ball rolling, which I don't mind. I don't mind spending my money on capturing my music properly, something to show the grandkids ya know, and more important to me then a car or a plasma tv.

As for planning, I've been thinking about this for over a year. I have a load of radio airplay sorted through various connections, and being a journalism student I have a few lecturers who wouldn't hesitate to give me a nudge into the right direction for the bigger papers.

I'm planning a free online single, then an online pay to download single, then a small release for the album for anyone who wants it. Realistically I'm just looking for the whole thing to pay for itself and get my name out there.

I know it's a lot of work, but if you're not willing to invest in yourself then who are ya gonna invest in?

dream brother

I've always wanted to setup a record label too but it seems like theres so much work involved. Plus I haven't a clue about the business side of things. I say getting an accountant would be a very good start though

TelePaul

You'd need to come up with some capital before a bank will go near you.

Frankiestylee

dream brother wrote:

I've always wanted to setup a record label too but it seems like theres so much work involved. Plus I haven't a clue about the business side of things. I say getting an accountant would be a very good start though

To get anywhere you tend to need a lot of work, it's just the way of the world I guess.

counterpointaud

TelePaul wrote:

You'd need to come up with some capital before a bank will go near you.

Capital, or assets.

Plus a good business plan.

Although I'm not really that familiar with the tax breaks available to arts investment in this country, I believe films and documenties have been produced on the back of private investment, no banks loans involved.

I doubt, somehow, that the patrons involved are investing purely to further Irish artists.

And there is always arts council grants available also.

Still risk involved obviously, but I personally think there are other routes besides a personal or business bank loan.

Nathan

Frankiestylee

Well in my personal situation I'm planning on funding my album myself anyhows, so I'm not too worried about what the bank thinks. Question is whether to use my money as a person or whether I should funnel it through a company of some sort.

To be honest I think any unsigned artist in Ireland has to show a financial commitment to their work at least to some extent. If you're not willing to invest some money in your music then why should anybody else do it?

counterpointaud

Frankiestylee wrote:

Well in my personal situation I'm planning on funding my album myself anyhows, so I'm not too worried about what the bank thinks. Question is whether to use my money as a person or whether I should funnel it through a company of some sort.

To be honest I think any unsigned artist in Ireland has to show a financial commitment to their work at least to some extent. If you're not willing to invest some money in your music then why should anybody else do it?

I agree, my business relies partly on people like yourself self financing their own work (I too, have invested money in releases/showcases/promotion for bands I've played with).

All I'm saying, is that IMO, running a record label as a business, and signing act's other than your own, is another kettle of fish.

Maybe I missed the point of the thread, working weird hours @ the moment = scrambled brain...if so...my bad.

Nathan

EDIT: You can gain in your situation after the fact by setting up a label for your own material, and talking to the Art's Council RE: grants. You will need invoices for recording/duplication/promotion costs, and 'proof' that you've paid them. The amount you can recoup is @ their discretion. I know this as an artist recently recouped all his expenditure @ my place months later. Maybe that helps?

Frankiestylee

Ah yeah, I know other peoples music is another kettle of fish... if I did a good job of my own stuff I'd take a look at releasing other bands' stuff.

Ah, ya didn't really miss the point of the thread, I'm just generally curious about all of this and the more information the better.

I was also considering buying some duplication equipment, not just for this project, but my Dad was looking at some stuff last year for his business so I might see about going halves on it or something, or maybe work something out. Might make a new thread about duplication... hmmm...

I know that one of the companies I was considering using is actually just a duplication machine in a small office, might make sense to go into the same business myself. :P