Old Testament Law vs. New Testament Instruction

robindch

> And where did Jesus change the nature of the Law?

In Colossians 2:14-19, where the author says that Jesus "cancelled the written code". AFAIR, it was Excelsior who told me that this is the verse which invalidates the moral and legal obligations outlined in Leviticus and elsewhere.

BrianCalgary

Feel free to pipe in here Excelsior.

having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us

I would classify the written code as that which became all the rules and regulations surrounding the Law. The written code as put out by the Jewish hierarchy.

One particular discussion was about what constituted work on a sabbath. Somebody said that if you walked further than say 100metres, you were guilty of work.

Someone else decided that in order for the community to be clean, the outhouses had to be 200 metres away. Now on the Sabbath we have a problem. Imagine if you had a wee stomach bug on that day.:eek:

Christ was getting rid of the ridiculousness of the man made codes, I would argue that He would have the same thing to say about our current churches having equivalent riduculous codes demanded of their constituents, and not the Law.

robindch

> The written code as put out by the Jewish hierarchy.

No, I was told that it refers specifically to the laws, regulations, commandments etc with which the OT abounds.

But nobody would resolve the contradictory verse in Matthew 5:17-18, where the text says exactly the opposite -- "not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law".

So, which text is right? The one cancelling the law, or the one affirming it?

stevejazzx

BrianCalgary wrote:

Christ was getting rid of the ridiculousness of the man made codes, I would argue that He would have the same thing to say about our current churches having equivalent riduculous codes demanded of their constituents, and not the Law.

When did he get rid of these rdiuculous man made codes? Was it before or after he gave us free will?. And if was before he gave us free will why were the people of the time, before free will was granted, judged by the same criteria as the people who live now (or after the time when free will was granted)?

And if you claim that he always allowed us free will since the begining then what is the point in getting rid of our man made codes? Since that is part of our test.
If he's going to correct us why not correct us forever and more comphrehensively than just getting rid of a few poor laws.

philologos

Brian, didn't Moses dictate the Law from God?

stevejazzx

Jakkass wrote:

Brian, didn't Moses dictate the Law from God?

Do you mean 'did god dictate the law to moses'?
Well the commandments, yes, but the general law, no. That was recorded in the bible. Allah and satan dictated the qu'ran to mohammed. But noone dictated the whole bible to anyone. It is many books and the general code has been established from Jesus's morals and teachings.

Excelsior

robindch wrote:

...it was Excelsior who told me...

I don't think that is anything I ever wrote.

philologos

stevejazzx wrote:

Do you mean 'did god dictate the law to moses'?
Well the commandments, yes, but the general law, no. That was recorded in the bible. Allah and satan dictated the qu'ran to mohammed. But noone dictated the whole bible to anyone. It is many books and the general code has been established from Jesus's morals and teachings.

I thought from Genesis to Deuteronomy was dictated. God spoke to Moses when he gave him all the laws and rulings in those sections.

stevejazzx

As far as I know the books of Genesis have a few writers, most notably Moses, who, it is claimed, were inspired by the holy spirit to write these books in the begining. Maybe Brian has a better explanation.

robindch

> I don't think that is anything I ever wrote.

I believe it was, though it was well over a year ago and in a similar discussion about how Leviticus and others could be jettisoned. I noted down the verse-reference at the time.

robindch

> As far as I know the books of Genesis have a few writers, most notably
> Moses, who, it is claimed, were inspired by the holy spirit to write these
> books in the begining.

The claim of inspiration by the holy spirit was a much later narrative and doctrinal development, since the holy spirit, as subsequently described in the NT, isn't mentioned in the OT at all.

Genesis, in the opinion of most non-aligned scholars, is an amalgamation of bronze-age creation and catastrophe myths from around Sumeria and Mesopotamia, some of which were discovered in earlier forms from archaeological digs in the region from the mid-19th century onwards. Even my good friends in AiG have a reasonable page on the topic here, though the conclusion they reach is unsupported by facts.

BrianCalgary

The authorship of the pentateuch is given as Moses. Moses is the one who spoke with God and received the commandments from God.

Stevejazzx said:When did he get rid of these rdiuculous man made codes? Was it before or after he gave us free will?. And if was before he gave us free will why were the people of the time, before free will was granted, judged by the same criteria as the people who live now (or after the time when free will was granted)?

And if you claim that he always allowed us free will since the begining then what is the point in getting rid of our man made codes? Since that is part of our test.
If he's going to correct us why not correct us forever and more comphrehensively than just getting rid of a few poor laws.

Free will had been there from the start. God gave us the guidelines as to how we are to live. He began with the ten commandments. He then told us the sacrifices to be made in order to remind us of our sin and our resposibility to God an our fellow man.

Unfortunately man has added his own sets of rules over the years. Jesus came and corrected the Jewish leaders by reminding them of the Law as given by God and the spirit behind that Law.

Jesus narrows it all down to two: love God with all your heart soul and mind, love your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus did not change one stroke of either of these Laws. He did correct the Pharasaical rules tha thad been added throughout the years.

I think that if Jesus came today that He would probably have the same complaint of some of our institutional rules and regulations.

Splendour

Though Colossians 2, 14-19 and Matthew 5, 17-18, at first glance seem at odds, they are in fact both in tandem with each other.

In Matthew 5, 17-18 Jesus says,'Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets;I have not come to abolish them but fulfill them'. In other words, Jesus HAD to come to fulfill the law for us because no earthly man could keep all the laws perfectly-it just wasn't, and still isn't, possible. He didn't abolish the law, but rather he fulilled it for us...


In Colossians 2,14-19: 14 He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross. 15 He took away the weapons of the powers and authorities. He made a public show of them. He won the battle over them by dying on the cross.

16 So don't let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don't let anyone judge you about holy days. I'm talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days. 17 They are only a shadow of the things that were going to come. But what is real is found in Christ.

18 Some people enjoy pretending they aren't proud. They worship angels. But don't let people like that hold you back from winning the prize. They tell you every little thing about what they have seen. Their minds are not guided by the Holy Spirit. So they are proud of their useless ideas.

19 They aren't connected to the Head. But the whole body grows from the Head. The muscles and tendons hold the body together. And God causes it to grow.

No contradiction there, he 'wiped out the law' ie. fulfilled the law for those who choose to follow him. There are two choices here, one can either try to keep the law themselves in every single utterance or they can choose to accept that Jesus has fulfilled this law for them, in which case they will be completely washed clean by his blood.

People were so wrapped up in keeping various different laws and arguing over petty rules and regulations, God was basically saying, 'Listen guys, why are you so concerned with all your rules and regulations-follow me and what I've done through my son dying on the cross and all will be well.'

Some things never change...

stevejazzx

BrianCalgary wrote:

The authorship of the pentateuch is given as Moses. Moses is the one who spoke with God and received the commandments from God.

Stevejazzx said:When did he get rid of these rdiuculous man made codes? Was it before or after he gave us free will?. And if was before he gave us free will why were the people of the time, before free will was granted, judged by the same criteria as the people who live now (or after the time when free will was granted)?

And if you claim that he always allowed us free will since the begining then what is the point in getting rid of our man made codes? Since that is part of our test.
If he's going to correct us why not correct us forever and more comphrehensively than just getting rid of a few poor laws.

Free will had been there from the start. God gave us the guidelines as to how we are to live. He began with the ten commandments. He then told us the sacrifices to be made in order to remind us of our sin and our resposibility to God an our fellow man.

Unfortunately man has added his own sets of rules over the years. Jesus came and corrected the Jewish leaders by reminding them of the Law as given by God and the spirit behind that Law.

Jesus narrows it all down to two: love God with all your heart soul and mind, love your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus did not change one stroke of either of these Laws. He did correct the Pharasaical rules tha thad been added throughout the years.

I think that if Jesus came today that He would probably have the same complaint of some of our institutional rules and regulations.

Aren't you avoiding the point, if free will exists from the begining then Jesus romaing around Jureusalem 2000 years ago interferes directly with idea of free will. If people could see Jesus 2000 years ago perfroming miracles, like the loafs and fishes for example, they no longer need free will or the the test of faith. They can say, Jesus is real I saw it with my own 2 eyes, he fed hundreds with just a couple of loafs and fishes. No faith needed, therefore, there exists in existence, people who were favoured by God, in that he revealed himself to them and lessened their burden.Why favour some? Clearly the idea is that we all face the same hardship and tests. My question again: why would he appear and walk amoung people 2 thousand years if the principle of free will and the test of faith was already in place. A god interacting with mortals breaks these concepts as he is the giver. Just like the stroy Adam and Eve, they were free to choose and they ate the fruit of the trees, and started all this suffering under God until death. Could an all knowing God not of forsseen that they would sin? The whole process of getting to the part where we must suffer is anti-logic. It benefits noone. Not god, not us.Why not, in Gods masterplan, just skip it? No Adam and eve, just humanity all living peacefully in heaven. Why is the human concept applied that we must earn a place in heaven, this doesn't make any sense either for if heaven if a transcendental spiritual world surely it is a contradiction the to say that one can actually earn it. Surely transcendental sprititual eternity is something that is just given by an all powerful omnipresent being? What would be the purpose to concieve a rule where people must earn it and then make people in such a way that they immediately inherit the burden of sin thereby denying them it, only to invent another rule where if they repent they can qualify again? And then further break these rules by appearing to some people (like he did 2 thousand years ago) and giving them an advantage (they would of been able to witness miralcles firsthand) over others who would follow.
What is God testing (our gentic makeup?) that he doesn't already know the answer to? If his being is of infinite knowledge and power, why the test? Our sense of right and wrong? Some people are mentally disabled, how are they tested? Why are they tetsed?
Some children die so young that were never able to repent properly or even commit any sin in the first place. What is the point of an infant who dies in it's cot after 2 weeks of life?
Furthemore the idea of faith cannot possibly be expected of tribes who have never even heard about God, yet since he created the world, I imagine they too are subject his rule. What is the point of the hundreds of thousands of people who have never even heard about christianity? How are they tetsed? Or is it just us god fearing christians that are being tested endlessly? The God in the clouds looking over our every action and judigng? Surely a God so intelligent and powerful doens't need to test? One tests something to find out if that something knows the answer to what you're testing, if you already know exactly what that they know, why test them? Give them free will to make their own decisions? Ok that makes sense but only if they all face the exact same challenges, are genetically identical and live in the same envoiroment but that is not life. Life is random and we all face differnet levels of difficulty just staying alive, let alone abiding to some obsessive master who is constantly assessing our eligibility for some unknowable afterlife which is so sacred that it defies all our knowing and contradicts the very animal, physical and motal essence and nature of the beings that we actually are.

PDN

robindch wrote:

> And where did Jesus change the nature of the Law?

In Colossians 2:14-19, where the author says that Jesus "cancelled the written code". AFAIR, it was Excelsior who told me that this is the verse which invalidates the moral and legal obligations outlined in Leviticus and elsewhere.

If you read this verse in context you will see that the specific examples the author (Paul) mentions are ceremonial aspects of the law, not moral obligations. In fact the New Testament repeatedly and consistently reinforces the moral obligations of the Old Testament. The ceremonial aspects of the law were pointing the way to Christ, so they were fulfilled rather than abolished.

This would be similar to me giving you written driving directions to visit our church. After several visits you wouldn't need the directions anymore, not because they have been abolished but because they fulfilled their purpose.

BrianCalgary

stevejazzx,

Not quite sure what you are on about, but I will try and answer the free will question.

Jesus performed miracles and showed that He was God. He read scripture to show that He was the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

People then have the choice whether or not to follow Him. The rich man knew who Jesus was and believed in Him, yet he wouldn't put his faith in Christ by giving up his comforts.

I think the Pharisees didn't accept Him because thatwould have meant a loss of power and standing in the community, so they called Hi smiracles: sorcery.

Today you also have a choice whether or not to follow Christ. His life is laid our for you to read about, His miracles, His resurrection and His teachings.

I hear people say that they agree with His teachings yet don't want anything to do with Christianity. My experience with this group is that they like the rich man do not want to give something up thatis dear to them, be it material or lifestyle.

Others say they think the church is full of hypocrites or they don't like the institutional church. My response find one that isn't an institution, and trust me one more hypocrite isn't going to hurt.:)

What is your reason?

PS. Make it easy for us and number your questions, or start a new thread for each.