Tournament Hand ~ genius or madman?

Iago

Home game tournament, 13 players left, top 3 get paid. We're not long out of the rebuy stage which saw a number of blind all-ins and calls before a single card was dealt. In the freezeout now though, and the players involved know what they're doing...sometimes

Villian 1 : Has been the instigator of most of the all-in blind madness, but it's freezeout time now and he's shut up shop a little. He's been caught out a couple of times trying to bluff his way to a pot, and I think he'll bet pretty much any two cards if he thinks he can get away with it. Takes a certain amount of pride in both bluffing players off a pot and outdrawing them. Has a pathological attraction to Jx I think he would especially like to get one over on Villian 2 in this hand.

Villian 2: Has also been heavily involved in the blind all-in fun, but is a very capable player and probably the big danger out of everyone that's left. Very capable of being tricky and also playing solid poker to grind out a win. Sometimes get's impatient, but on the whole is a very strong player. There's an interesting dynamic going on between him and Villian 1 though, and he's unlikely to lay down without a fight in hands they're both involved in. They know each other quite well and he certainly knows of Villain 1's tendency to bet any two cards.

I've been playing way tighter than normal, mostly because I haven't had any cards & Villain 2 has already commented on it telling the others that "if Hero comes over the top it's only one of 3 hands" I've only shown down 3 hands so far QQ & KK, and an all-in blind Q4o in the last hand of the rebuy period where I could rebuy and top-up if I lost leaving me with more chips, as it happened I doubled up, co-incidentally it was against Villain 2.

Only 3 places paid, and of those you only want first or second.

1st 850 ; 2nd 450 ; 3rd 150

Effective stacks are 26K, average stack is around 17K or so, blinds are 150/300. I'm in the SB

Hero (26K) posts small blind 150
Villain 1 (17K) posts big blind 300
Villain 2 (26K) calls 300
Hero (26k) has 8s 3s calls 150
Villain 1 (17K) checks

POT: 900

Flop 6c 9s 10s

Hero checks
Villain 1 bets 1,000
Villian 2 calls 1,000 and raises 2,000 more
Hero calls 3,000 and raises 22,000 and is all-in

Thoughts?

Ste05

Is it 3-handed, did Villain 2 open limp on the button??

Marq

You could call and have more chance of getting more money in the pot on a blank turn.
Looks like you're trying to get rid of them, which considering you have an excellent hand, may not be the best strategy.

Iago

Ste05 wrote:

Is it 3-handed, did Villain 2 open limp on the button??

Sorry no, we were 6 handed at the time. Villain 2 open limped from UTG

Rnger

Why raise so much

Iago

Marq wrote:

You could call and have more chance of getting more money in the pot on a blank turn.
Looks like you're trying to get rid of them, which considering you have an excellent hand, may not be the best strategy.

good point, and I considered calling. In the end I felt that a call here leaves me in trouble on a blank turn if I'm facing a bet. Maybe if Villain 2 had flat called the 1,000 I would have just called behind. I still have no idea whether or not Villain 1 will flat call the 2K or raise again. So if the turn comes blank and either player fires 4K at it I have to strongly consider folding.

Part of me wanted them out of the hand simply because unless I get to the river and hit my draw, my hand isn't that great. At the moment I've 8 high and a great draw, that diminishes signifcantly on a blank turn.

Rnger wrote:

Why raise so much

If I raise any less, I'm re-opening the betting to both players and pretty much committing myself anyway. There's 4K in the pot, including the 3K to me to call, so I need to raise to at least 8-10k leaving me with 16K behind. It's a lot of money to see one card. I was happy to take it down on the flop and if not I really wanted to get to the river.

Mellor

You got a great draw. 12 cards will make it for you. But if you get a caller it, its about 50/50. And also no card can hit to give you the nuts. So there is a chance you can hit and lose. If a villian held JQs, youe be in a very bad spot. Given the fact that villians appear to like a gambol. Unless you have very good reason to think the both villians will lay down here, I would probably flat call in this spot. and let the hand play out, there will be almost 10k in the pot and you will have good pot odds for most bets that stick in.

dannydiamond

if i held top pair i would be calling you here,as your bet does look like a draw.from your descriptions of the two guys involved there's a better than average chance you'll take it down right here as villian 2 may well be re-stealing.in NL tournament poker the third raise in any hand is a powerful tool if played correctly!

cardshark202

I wouldn't raise any less than all in here. The play was fine.

Iago

dannydiamond wrote:

if i held top pair i would be calling you here,as your bet does look like a draw.

I think your answer may be colored by knowing my holding, calling here with TP would be very very bad imho

I've limped from the SB in an unraised pot and I've CRAI against two aggressors both of whom have a history of going to the felt with their hands, what's my range?

you are behind a lot of it and will be outdrawn by a lot more. Even with a bare flush draw you would have to assume that I have at least one overcard to the board making it a 50/50 at best for you.

This is not the time to go to war with top pair.

dannydiamond

i see your point but don't agree.If i feel you're on a draw here and i'm ahead i'm calling every time.Of course alot has to do with your image and the other players knowledge of your game.Im not a big advocate of sticking all your chips in with one pair,but sometimes one pair is enough.On such a draw heavy board your allin move is obvious and transparent,but in saying that,it's a good move in this situation against these two players.

bops

dannydiamond wrote:

If i feel you're on a draw here and i'm ahead i'm calling every time.

Hello Danny! welcome to boards - above are the words of someone who's runnin hot?? ...and 100% correct

dannydiamond wrote:

On such a draw heavy board your allin move is obvious and transparent.

yup! - never push on a draw! - you have plenty of chips and a hand full of potential - but alas only 8 high atm.

I'm not saying it's a bad play - it's just a gamble rather than a poker play - and i've done it a million times myself of course.

...i'm sure you get called and hit anyways gl

fuzzbox

dannydiamond wrote:

i see your point but don't agree.If i feel you're on a draw here and i'm ahead i'm calling every time.Of course alot has to do with your image and the other players knowledge of your game.Im not a big advocate of sticking all your chips in with one pair,but sometimes one pair is enough.On such a draw heavy board your allin move is obvious and transparent,but in saying that,it's a good move in this situation against these two players.

If you regularly call here with top pair, then you will lose a lot of money/chips.

brianmc

bops wrote:

never push on a draw! - you have plenty of chips and a hand full of potential - but alas only 8 high atm.

Nonsense. This is a significant pot and you have an opportunity to take it.

Never push on a 12 out draw unless you think you have geuine fold equity. If you think you may get this pot uncontested - shove.


Would you still not push with 15 or 16 outs Bops?

Iago

dannydiamond wrote:

On such a draw heavy board your allin move is obvious and transparent

I disagree, on such a draw heavy board with two aggressive players betting in front of me I'm very likely to push here with any two pair, mid or bottom set and even a straight if I don't have the flush draw to go with it.

why would I let them improve for free?

dannydiamond wrote:

If i feel you're on a draw here and i'm ahead i'm calling every time

If you're holding AcTc and you know I'm holding QsJs do you still call here everytime?

bops wrote:

yup! - never push on a draw! - you have plenty of chips and a hand full of potential - but alas only 8 high atm.

I'm not saying it's a bad play - it's just a gamble rather than a poker play - and i've done it a million times myself of course.

Never call an all-in with a draw would be closer to good advice, but even then never is a very strong word.

The push gives me two ways to win the hand, I didn't see it as a gamble. I definitely think it was the play that was most likely to win chips for me. In saying that I agree with your point that I had plenty of chips, but I think there are very few hands that can call me here.

careca

Iago wrote:

I disagree, on such a draw heavy board with two aggressive players betting in front of me I'm very likely to push here with any two pair, mid or bottom set and even a straight if I don't have the flush draw to go with it.

why would I let them improve for free?

I think that could be your problem here. You gave them the chance to improve for free by checking. Would you have done this with a set or two pair. I think pushing on that flop is a better play than CRAI as it disguises your hand more.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

fuzzbox

Iago wrote:

If you're holding AcTc and you know I'm holding QsJs do you still call here everytime?

The answer to this is YES. Our odds of winning are <50%, but the pot offers us more than enough odds to compensate for our very slight disadvantage.

This is not the question you should be asking.

dannydiamond

cheers bops! sorry don't know how to cut/paste quotes,but...... fuzzbox-I wouldn't "regularly" call here with top pair,only in paticular situations where i felt i was ahead,if i think i am ahead in a hand I am not afraid to put my tournament on it.I will not fold because i am afraid of a draw,these marginal situations can often be very profitable if one has a correct read on the situation. Iago-i agree with your push!A good chance of taking it down right now,and a call wouldn't the worst thing either.BTW would you be happy with a call?

Iago

careca wrote:

I think that could be your problem here. You gave them the chance to improve for free by checking. Would you have done this with a set or two pair. I think pushing on that flop is a better play than CRAI as it disguises your hand more.

I knew one of them would have a pop at it regardless, and felt they would fold a wide range of hands they would bet with if I bet anything in front of them. IF they didn't bet and I got a free card then it wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world. but my intention was to end the hand on the flop if I could.

I just can't see open pushing here as being profitable given all I have is 8 high and I don't think an open push for 25 times the pot makes sense here.

fuzzbox wrote:

The answer to this is YES. Our odds of winning are <50%, but the pot offers us more than enough odds to compensate for our very slight disadvantage.

This is not the question you should be asking.

really?? I've no access here to calculators but if I have 21 outs on the flop (any spade, J, Q, K, 8) and even given that both J,Q won't be enough if you get a T or an A, I would have thought we should fold here. I think I'd fold here a lot more often than I'd call, so that's something I need to look at improving.

what question should I be asking?
how do you view my move, and what range would you call with?

dannydiamond wrote:

I will not fold because i am afraid of a draw,these marginal situations can often be very profitable if one has a correct read on the situation

agreed, but I'm not sure that this is one of those situations. given how tight I've been playing and given the dynamics of the hand, I think you're in huge trouble here with TP more often than not.

as for whether I wanted a call, I had mixed thoughts. If I was called and won, I would really have fancied my chances of winning overall. If they both folded I increased my stack by almost 25%. I would have been happy taking it there, but a call wouldn't have been the worst outcome

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

at this point in the hand, yeah a shove is all we can do in terms of raising. calling so transparent and we have pretty bad reverse implied odds due to us not drawing to either of the nuts and all other draws are calling if we call, that i think thats the worst of the three options. Also your not closing the action.

I would always fold this hand preflop, becuase i dont think its profitable to complete from the SB with this crap being this deep.

Its really marginal at this stage whether pushing is going to be profitable.

Also the idea of never pushing on a draw is just stupid. Why make the distinction between a made hand and a draw when going all in?

Marq

I misread the original board. I thought you had flopped a flush. On reflection I think the way you played it is fine, but folding is also an option worth considering. I probably raise 80%, fold 20%.

Juan Pablo

I was the villain here. I think the one big mistake I made here was focusing on the BB and not considering the rest of the table.

In the last three orbits, Villain 1 raised when on his big blind. So when I look down at KsKh utg, I have a nice little plan of limp reraising the big blind, then talking him into playing back at me (we've been to and fro all evening, playing for 150 BB pots blind in the rebuy period and such, usual home game fun). So of course Villain 1 checks his option after Iago completed his SB. After Iago checks the flop, Villain 1 leads for 1k, which means he either has a pair, a draw or even J high. Its not the worst flop in the world for Kings but I'm raising here every time. Upon reflection, a bet of between 3400 and 3800 may have been better than the 3000, but I don’t think the hand would have played out differently.

When Iago pushes for 22k more my gut reaction was flush draw. He isn't pushing with a set/ 2 pair/straight as he would want to extract a little more value from both myself and Villain 1 and an awful lot of the time myself and Villain 1 will have very little here, certainly not enough to call with, so Iago knows there is huge folding equity. I'm at the very top of my range and still have a really tough call to make. While I was certain I held the best hand now, I still figured it was a coin flip with what Iago could be pushing with. Coupled with this was the fact that I had the chance to take out the best of my opponents and at the same time have a monster chip lead, after serious consideration I called and my Kings held up. Nasty spot to be in though, especially since the suicide rebuy had been availed of a few hands prior.

Iago

in retrospect I should probably have paid more heed to your utg limp and almost instant re-raise on the flop. I did think you had your eye on Villain 1's stack though and felt you'd raise almost any two against him.

I could fold here but it's a little weak I think, calling is probably worse. So the only question was how much to raise, given the betting patterns during the game and the fact that any reasonable raise commits me I felt it was better to push. When you called I figured I probably had 12 outs so I was 50/50 to get rid of the only real threat in the game. Then you turned over the Ks, and villain 1 showed the 7s and I got a sinking feeling...

still I think I get this through a lot of the time here, and when I don't I outdraw you a good portion of the time so I think it's a valid move. Just unlucky that you happened to be at the very top of a very wide range that you could have been holding there.

juan pablo wrote:

He isn't pushing with a set/ 2 pair/straight as he would want to extract a little more value from both myself and Villain 1

actually while I'll very rarely push with a straight or top set here, I would push with two pair or bottom set a lot. Simply because I know that Villain 1 is more than likely on some sort of drawing hand, and I don't want him getting there cheaply. Your re-raise could be two overcards, but it could also be TP with a good kicker/straight draw and I don't want you getting there cheaply either. Granted this is far more applicable when I'm holding 96 than any other two pair or set holding, but is possible.

juan pablo wrote:

and an awful lot of the time myself and Villain 1 will have very little here, certainly not enough to call with, so Iago knows there is huge folding equity

This was the key point and was really what made up my mind for me. I think if you'd been at any lower part of your range or even without the Ks you would have folded...even if you wanted to call