1/2 NL live hand

Gholimoli

Live ½ hand:

Villain in this hand is a decent player.
He is generally very tight but some times he can open his game and basically he is able to take advantage of his image.

Effective stacks 500
4 or 5 limpers and I check my options from the BB with JTo.

Flop(12 ish)

8 9 T rainbow.
I check and its checked around to villain on the button who leads for 12.

I then make it 40.
Folded back to villain who calls.

Turn(90 ish)
2
I lead for 60 and villain makes it 180.

Me?

P.S villain is Eamon with ponytail

BigCityBanker

I dont think this is a profitable call at any time and fold.

sikes

doesn't make any sense for him to bluff into 4 players on that board.

he might lay down two pair, but apart from that you have to assume he will call you with all straights and sets.

He isnt playing AJ, KJ like this enough either.

Also, I would prob just call the flop

ianmc38

I hate your flop check raise and dont see the point of it. The turn for me is a pretty easy fold. All you beat now is air.

Bandara

you put yourself into a tough situation due to the reraise on the flop which has allowed the pot to spiral from a €36 pot, into a €94 one. You are now making it potentially a very expensive hand for you if you don't hit anything else (as I'm assuming your 10 with the J kicker isn't good here anymore).

by calling the flop bet, checking the turn into him (yes its a bit weak i know) you are reducing your exposure to facing another pot sized bet of €35 or so rather than the €180 one, which will result in the rest going in on the river and unless you hit the st8 or two pair at least you can't call anything.

just my opinion on it.

NickyOD

Calling is totally out of the question since there's no money card on the river for you. Going all in is probably better but pretty insane. Don't like the check raise on the flop. Check calling or leading is probably better.

pok3rplaya

We're getting 5.5 to 1 on the turn call are we not?

pok3rplaya

Lead the flop. I don't like the c/r either because we are usually facing a better hand and we have 0 FE most of the time. Same applies to the turn lead except we're even more sure that he has a good hand now since he called the flop raise.

Turn is a fold because we're not getting immediate odds and are implied odds suck because alot of the time we are splitting or still beat even if we hit our outs so we could be facing pretty nasty reverse implied odds.

Eddited because I cant add.

NickyOD

pok3rplaya wrote:

We're getting 5.5 to 1 on the turn call are we not?

huzzuh?

Villain is "very tight" How much money can you hope to extract on the river if Q, 7 or T falls IF we are actually drawing live?

Actually, if you believe you are drawing live in this spot, you should 3 bet all in on the turn, because this player should fold.

phantom_lord

ianmc38 wrote:

I hate your flop check raise and dont see the point of it. The turn for me is a pretty easy fold. All you beat now is air.

.

Ste05

pok3rplaya wrote:

We're getting 5.5 to 1 on the turn call are we not?

No, we're not. It's €120 to call to win a pot of €330 (90+60+180) or 2.75:1

It's a fold now, we'll be very unlikely to get paid off on a 4 to a straight board and there's not enough fold equity to make a push profitable. I'd have lead the flop here too

phantom_lord

is this nl or pl btw?

Gholimoli

I don’t think a CR here as bad as every one is saying.

I think a CR here will show a lot of strength on that board and the fact that my CR is in to so many ppl in makes it even stronger.

There were 4 or 5 ppl to the flop so my thinking was some on may lead ,get called on one or two place and back to me and then I CR .

If I lead ,get called in one or two spots then button raises then I will be in a though spot.
If I call I may yet get raised behind me again.

I thought my lead was a bit weak on the turn ,what do we think?

Even though I think villain is capable of raising my turn bet light there I really doubt he would do it there.

I think calling the turn bet is very bad as you are essentially playing it for your stack if you do and its much better to shove here if you are going to carry on.
I folded anyway.

pok3rplaya

Ste05 wrote:

No, we're not. It's €120 to call to win a pot of €330 (90+60+180) or 2.75:1

It's a fold now, we'll be very unlikely to get paid off on a 4 to a straight board and there's not enough fold equity to make a push profitable. I'd have lead the flop here too

Oh yeah so it is. In my world 60 + 60 = 180.

sikes

what does he fold that he pots it with on the flop?

You dont want to play a big pot OOP against a decent player with a vulnerable holding and your redraw being as clear as day when it hits.

valor

your check raise on the flop is really bad because it over represents your hand, inflates the pot out of position and makes him fold almost all worse hands

Gholimoli

valor wrote:

your check raise on the flop is really bad because it over represents your hand, inflates the pot out of position and makes him fold almost all worse hands

there is nothing wrong with over representing your hand.
its called a bluff/semibluff .

In terms of folding worse hands that’s fine too as he is not likely to put money in the pot with a worse hand than mine anyway.

He can fold QT,KT, and maybe even AT here .also if he calls im not really in a bad shape as I possibly have 3 jacks,2 tens,4 queens,4 sevens as outs.
I think the worse thing about a check raise here is if villain is an aggro one who can call lite here and then raise the turn lite as well.
Im not saying CR is better than leading but im still not convinced leading is much better.

If we lead and get called and then button raises, what’s the plan then?

valor

yes but you dont want to bluff or semi bluff here

if i lead for 10 and he raises pot I would just fold, we have reverse implied odds

MrPillowTalk

Leading is better because you find out for a tenner what you have found out for 40.

Gholimoli

valor wrote:

yes but you dont want to bluff or semi bluff here

if i lead for 10 and he raises pot I would just fold, we have reverse implied odds

why dont i wanna semi bluff here?

valor

because we are out of position, have a reasonably strong made hand, and our draw is pretty worthless because we arent likely to get paid off if we hit

robinlacey

Gholimoli wrote:

there is nothing wrong with over representing your hand.

in situations like this i think there is,you have a hand with showdown value and you're out of position 250 bbs deep,turning it into a bluff while still having top pair and a draw is going to put you in a lot of raspy situations.

you have to be very careful when you check raise the flop that you know exactly what you're doing,for this reason you usually want to have 100 bbs or so stacks so that when you c/r the flop your stack is such that it looks like all the money will probably end up in on the turn,so you maximise your fold equity on the flop and also can pot commit yourself on the turn if you want so that you can't get priced out of the draw you've already put a decent amount of money in with.

anyway,with check raising draws you really want to be doing it with hands that have no showdown value to speak of,but a draw to a very strong hand,usually the nuts or close to it.

here you have a hand that is neither here nor there,it has some showdown value but not a huge amount,and it has a draw to an obvious non-nut straight.this is not a situation where you want to swell the pot out of position playing deep stacked,in my opinion.

Gholimoli

robinlacey wrote:

in situations like this i think there is,you have a hand with showdown value and you're out of position 250 bbs deep,turning it into a bluff while still having top pair and a draw is going to put you in a lot of raspy situations.

you have to be very careful when you check raise the flop that you know exactly what you're doing,for this reason you usually want to have 100 bbs or so stacks so that when you c/r the flop your stack is such that it looks like all the money will probably end up in on the turn,so you maximise your fold equity on the flop and also can pot commit yourself on the turn if you want so that you can't get priced out of the draw you've already put a decent amount of money in with.

anyway,with check raising draws you really want to be doing it with hands that have no showdown value to speak of,but a draw to a very strong hand,usually the nuts or close to it.

here you have a hand that is neither here nor there,it has some showdown value but not a huge amount,and it has a draw to an obvious non-nut straight.this is not a situation where you want to swell the pot out of position playing deep stacked,in my opinion.

Totally agree,
As almost every one has said I think CR was a wrong thing to do but I think as you correctly pointed out its mostly because we are so deep .

As you said with less deep stacks a CR would be fine but here it was a bad play because villain can simply call our raise and punish us for drawing on the turn, which is just what happened.

phantom_lord

Gholimoli wrote:

Totally agree,
As almost every one has said I think CR was a wrong thing to do but I think as you correctly pointed out its mostly because we are so deep .

i think it's mainly because the hand is ****.

valor

with less deep stacks a cr still sucks