Online users responsible for Suicide?

6th

Having seen this in the Sunday Times it got me thinking about how heated it can get in the ThunderDome.

I know people are responsible for themselves but how much blame can be put on the users in the story below?

Police consider charging chatroom users for inciting cyber suicide

Detectives are investigating whether people in an internet insult chatroom goaded a British man into killing himself.

ABOUT 100 internet chatroom users who witnessed a British man kill himself online - including some who allegedly incited him to hang himself - were being traced by detectives this weekend to be questioned over their roles in the cyber suicide.
Kevin Whitrick, 42, from Telford, Shropshire, killed himself after being goaded in an insult chatroom at the Paltalk website.

One of the users is claimed to have told him: "F..king do it. Get on with it."

The death has raised concerns that some internet forums encourage people to take their lives.

According to one charity that works to prevent suicide, there have been 17 deaths in Britain since 2001 involving internet chatrooms or sites that give advice on suicide methods.

The Home Office is reviewing the law over the possible prosecution of internet users who "aid, abet, counsel or procure" others to take their own lives. Campaigners want police to investigate and prosecute those involved in encouraging online suicides.

A West Mercia police spokesman said yesterday that detectives were working with a US internet service provider to identify about 100 people who were in the chatroom when Mr Whitrick killed himself. They will be offered counselling, but police will also want to reconstruct the online dialogue leading up to Mr Whitrick's death.

It has been claimed that many of those online thought Mr Whitrick was play-acting. But detectives will want to establish whether any of those involved were seriously inciting the father of two to kill himself.

Mr Whitrick, who used the online name Shyguy-17-1, was filmed by his computer webcam as he prepared to hang himself. He knocked a hole in his ceiling and attached a rope around an exposed joist.

Tim Bennet, a Paltalk user, said: "We were in an insult chatroom where people trade insults and have a go at each other. A couple of people told me what he was planning to do.

"Then Shyguy-17-1 turned his camera on. You could see him smash through the ceiling, then standing on a chair he hung a rope over an uncovered joist and tied it around his neck.

"People were still having a go at him, telling him to get on with it, shouting abuse over their microphones and writing messages - but he did not respond. And then he did it.

"I initially thought it was a fake, because you couldn't see his feet, but then his face started turning blue. I felt sick. The mood suddenly changed, everyone was concerned for him and started talking about calling the police and trying to help him."

Another Paltalk user, who asked not to be identified, said: "I didn't think it was real. I have known Kevin for over four years - he always went by his user-names of R1 and Shyguy-17-1, but he told his close friends on the sites his real name.

"I couldn't believe he was doing this. He was on the screen shouting, 'I've had it, you think I'm full of ****, not this time'.

"I hoped it was a stunt but I knew it was real. Other people were egging him on, telling him to get on with it, but I was just thinking, 'This is dangerous'. One guy who was chatting on his microphone shouted at Kevin, 'F..king do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For f..k's sake, he can't even do this properly'.

"Others were talking to him with his old user-name R1 and telling him to stop it. Then all of a sudden it became clear it was not a hoax. I watched what happened and felt sick - others were claiming he was faking it and was still stood on a chair, butI knew he was dead."

As Mr Whitrick died, reports said, those in the chatroom realised the seriousness of the situation. One chatroom user is reported to have said: "His face is turning purple. This guy is dead."

Another contributor asked: "Is this real?"

Computer users alerted police, who traced Mr Whitrick's address and forced their way into his apartment, but they arrived too late to save him.

Mr Whitrick, who worked for an electrical company in Shrewsbury, was divorced from his wife Paula. The couple had twins, a boy and a girl, aged 12.

In a statement, Paula said: "Kevin was a loving father and family man. He was the life and soul of the party and an extremely considerate and kind person. He will be so sadly missed by us all."

The case raises concerns that many internet users are detached from the impact of what they say online. In a similar death in 2003, Brandon Vedas, a 21-year-old man from Phoenix, Arizona, collapsed from a fatal overdose of prescription drugs after he was reportedly encouraged to take the drugs by others online. One of the chatroom users told Vedas: "Eat more ... I wanna see if you survive or you just black out."

Vedas's brother Rich said after the death: "These people treat it like somehow it's not the real world. They forget it's not just words on a screen."

In Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, there has been a significant increase in suicide pacts arranged over the internet.

"Youngsters find that on internet chat sites they can talk about the most intimate of issues with total strangers - including vague notions of wanting to die," said a psychology professor at Niigata Seiryo University, Mafumi Usui.

"Most of them aren't serious. But say one chat participant starts suggesting concrete plans ... that's when the internet can encourage suicide."

There has been at least one case in Britain of strangers meeting on the internet and arranging a suicide. Chris Aston, 25, a Manchester University PhD student, and Maria Williams, 42, from southeast London, killed themselves in February 2005 after they met online.

Campaigners want websites giving detailed advice on suicide methods to be shut down. And they want any online users who goad on those considering suicide to be prosecuted.

Paul Kelly, a trustee of Papyrus, the charity which works to prevent suicide in young people, said: "Some of these sites which incite or give advice on suicide are horrifying. They are encouraging vulnerable people to take their own lives."

Mr Kelly's son Simon committed suicide in 2001 after researching methods of death online. Mr Kelly has compiled details of 16 other deaths since 2001 involving the internet.

Campaigners say the law should be updated to make it clear incitement to commit suicide on websites or online is an offence.

The Sunday Times

6th

The death has raised concerns that some internet forums encourage people to take their lives.

I've seen it said in the Thunderdome and think I may have suggested it myself. It may be said in jest but is it possible that someone on here might be unstable enough to do it?

xebec

Read that article yesterday, found it kinda scary that people were able to joke about such a serious thing.

Zillah

Haha

Can you be prosecuted for goading someone to suicide in real life?

Thats like another case years ago, some idiot who took an overdose in an internet chat room with everybody spurring him on. With all the firewalls and sites being blocked, I can't search for it in my college- but he had the internet name "Ripper"

6th

Zillah wrote:

Haha

Can you be prosecuted for goading someone to suicide in real life?

Yep, afaik its happened a few times but not in Ireland.

monkeyfudge

Anyone remember the story of the kid who plotted his own murder in an online chatroom? He'd created multiple characters in the chat room and convinced some other kid to kill him.

The whole story is a very interesting read.

6th

Thats one of the ones that been on my mind.

So if I tell someone on here to kill themselves and they do how responsible am I?

monkeyfudge

monkeyfudge wrote:

Anyone remember the story of the kid who plotted his own murder in an online chatroom? He'd created multiple characters in the chat room and convinced some other kid to kill him.

The whole story is a very interesting read.

Have you got a link?

runswithascript

I think we must differentiate here between websites and chatrooms that exist for the soul purpose of inciting suicide and forums and chatrooms for general discussion where someone gets into an argument with someone they hate who claims to have suicidal tendacies and the former shouts DO IT!

I can picture myself telling someone to do it if they were a drama queen etc but I can't imagine how those people egged this guy on when he was on the webcam with a hole in his ceiling etc.

Very interesting, if disturbing article.

Ghost Train

can't really see anybody being prosecuted this way, but does raise questions about how people behave online. The way the internet works, you can't really stop this from happening, there will always be sites out there for people who want to find them, and you cant stop people insulting other people online. Also where do you draw the line, this article clearly describes the method used, breaking hole in ceiling, hadn't heard of that before, so if somebodies thinking about ending their life and reads this article, is the paper responsable in some way for providing instructions. sad story

Call Me Jimmy

If someone is ready to commit suicide then they are just ready, this guy with the webcam was an attention seeking loser and he got what he wanted, people talking about him.

Dragan

I don't know that many people on the net who don't realise where they hang out, where they post, what they read. It's hard to go through a day on the net blind to the intention of those around you.

The article said that guy was in an insult forum. In fairness it would seem like me going into the Thunderdome and posting something more at home in PI and then being pissed off about replies telling me to get the **** over myself and stop being a loser.

You get a reaction equal to where you post. This guy wanted to kill himself. It’s that simple….. People who commit suicide tend to have that issue. Wanting to kill themselves. They can harbour it for a long time, letting it bubble and eventually hinge on something which in there reality JUSTIFIES the act that they commit.

The problem with suicide is that it's almost impolite or un-PC to be angry at the person who killed themselve.

If someone killed a friend of mine I would be understandably pissed off at them. If my friend killed themselves I would be just as ****ing pissed off….at THEM, not at imaginary bull**** like blaming a chat room whos function and purpose was obvious.

justsomebloke

wrote:

According to one charity that works to prevent suicide, there have been 17 deaths in Britain since 2001 involving internet chatrooms or sites that give advice on suicide methods.

To me this actually seems like quite a low figure, and the other thing you have to remember is how many of these people would of killed themselves anyway even if they didn't have access to the internet, chances are the vast majority of the 17, if not all of them, may have did it anyway.

monkeyfudge

Deleted User wrote:

Have you got a link?

This is the one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1227362,00.html

crybaby

attention seeking coward

Mossy Monk

yes, that's it. an attention seeking coward :rolleyes:

Canis Lupus

I'm more concerned you can be prosecuted for telling a gobsh*te to go kill himself. Madness.

0utshined

Can someone post a link in Cool Vids & Pics & Links please?

There's only one user of that room responsible for that guy's death and it's Shyguy-17-1.

OctavarIan

No way in hell were the people in that chat room responsible for his suicide. They may have added to the hysteria as the event was taking place, but they were not responsible for it. I've read up on the man's background, and to pin the blame on the people in the chat room after what the man had been through is typical media bull****.

That being said, I detest the people in the chat room who egged him on while he was doing it. That's despicible and I truly hope they're feeling like crap now. However one of them has said he's going straight to the News of the World to make money off it (scum), so I know that's not the case.

I also disagree with the plans to introduce prosecution against people who incite cyber suicide. It's a bit silly really.

dermot_sheehan

6th wrote:

Thats one of the ones that been on my mind.

So if I tell someone on here to kill themselves and they do how responsible am I?

Here's the law:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993_11.html

Criminal Law (Suicide) Act 1993

section 2

A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

seamus

"These people treat it like somehow it's not the real world. They forget it's not just words on a screen."

That's really it summed up in one sentence.
"It's only the internet, it doesn't really matter", may pan out 99.99% of the time. But there is the odd time when the wrong factors come together that the line between reality and "words on a screen" becomes blurred.
As the Internet becomes much more interactive in terms of video and audio, that line will probably begin to vanish altogether.

If these same guys were talking to eachother on the phone, somehow I think their reactions to someone talking about suicide would be very different.

InFront

I would say that they didn't tell him to kill himself, they 'goaded' nothing more than a user name capable of emitting text onto a screen. It's the internet, you turn off your computer and everyone in it disappears, turn it on and they're back again - you control it. It's not like real life. I don't see that the chatroom users are to blame.

Marksie

seamus wrote:

That's really it summed up in one sentence.
"It's only the internet, it doesn't really matter", may pan out 99.99% of the time. But there is the odd time when the wrong factors come together that the line between reality and "words on a screen" becomes blurred.
As the Internet becomes much more interactive in terms of video and audio, that line will probably begin to vanish altogether.

If these same guys were talking to eachother on the phone, somehow I think their reactions to someone talking about suicide would be very different.

Oh I think that if you post in PI for example, you have to be fully aware that any person reading it may very well act on what you are saying.
It always pays to think carefully what you are saying. Even though i this instance it was an "insult" room, they do have some collective responsibility.

Fantastic Kaz

Don't think they're responsible. I think they're pathetic though. This guy had been thinking about killing himself for a while id say. You don't decide to kill yourself simply because someone tells you to do it.

limklad

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993_11.html

Criminal Law (Suicide) Act 1993

section 2

A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

gabhain7 wrote:

Here's the law:

By the wording of it, You can be conviction in this country if you aid another in another country to commit suicide. unless there is a loop hole, I hope not.

TwoShedsJackson

If he was stupid enough to let some harsh words on the internet of all places help convince him to kill himself, then the human race has profited by him being taken out of the gene pool.

Dagnir Glaurung

monkeyfudge wrote:

This is the one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1227362,00.html

Vanity Fair have a more detailed article for the bored.

Catsmokinpot

if you are dumb enough to listen to randomers on the internet then darwin wins again, i feel sorry for the fella, he was obviously a troubled and if the people that were around him had payed him more attention they may have noticed this, you cant blame people on the internet for this. how are they to know that someone is going to actually do this

tony 2 tone

Deleted User wrote:

Thats like another case years ago, some idiot who took an overdose in an internet chat room with everybody spurring him on. With all the firewalls and sites being blocked, I can't search for it in my college- but he had the internet name "Ripper"

His name was Brandon Vedas, here's a site by his brother.
http://www.brandonvedas.com/

0utshined

ripper wrote:

[04:49] <ripper> I told u I was hardcore

Maybe the guy in the first post was just trying to show he was hardcore?