Dull Thread Warning - EU is 50 today!

mike65

So then do we care?

I suspect not as like the weather or Corrie Street 'its always been there' and like the weather the EU is beyond the direct control of those on the ground. I does what it does and we get on with our lives regardless. In 1957 the Treaty of Rome made sense building on the Coal and Steel Union as a way of pushing previously warring nations toward dependancy on one another.

Its main successes it seems to me were early (esp the policies regarding food production, which were latter subverted by greed and inertia) and late - the realisation the market was actualy quite a good thing and should be encouraged and the ongoing integration of the ex-Soviet Bloc nations. Other areas such as the failure to ennunicate a foreign policy position on crisis issues such as the disintigration of Yugoslavia and the embarrassing toadying towards Slobodan Milosevic in the early 90s, speaks of a collective in search of a firm idea as to why it should exist.

After a half century of stuttering integration how much furthur should it go. Deeper seems to have been halted in the aftermath of the Constitution referendum defeats while wider is almost at its natural limit (maybe Switzerland and Norway will get on the bus one day).

I think the EU should just get what exists to work better and leave it at that.

Mike.

juliuspret

mike65 wrote:

So then do we care?

I suspect not as like the weather or Corrie Street 'its always been there' and like the weather the EU is beyond the direct control of those on the ground. I does what it does and we get on with our lives regardless. In 1957 the Treaty of Rome made sense building on the Coal and Steel Union as a way of pushing previously warring nations toward dependancy on one another.

Its main successes it seems to me were early (esp the policies regarding food production, which were latter subverted by greed and inertia) and late - the realisation the market was actualy quite a good thing and should be encouraged and the ongoing integration of the ex-Soviet Bloc nations. Other areas such as the failure to emmunicate a foreign policy position on crisis issues such as the disintigration of Yugoslavia and the embarrassing toadying towards Slobodan Milosevic in the early 90s, speaks of a collective in search of a firm idea as to why it should exist.

After a half century of stuttering integration how much furthur should it go. Deeper seems to have been halted in the aftermath of the Constitution referendum defeats while wider is almost at its natural limit (maybe Switzerland and Norway will get on the bus one day).

I think the EU should just get what exists to work better and leave it at that.

Mike.

The next step for the EU is Federalism!

Without such a drastic step these little squabbles that frequently occur within the EU will eventually tear it apart!

Federalism will make the European Parliament a stronger and more democratic concept.

Also the EU Comission needs to be reorganised as we all know what type of chancers go there!!!

Mr.Nice Guy

Bunch of sovereignty-robbing bastards who stick two fingers up at democracy whenever it suits them (see oriignal Nice treaty vote and two 'No' votes to the EU constitution.

Yeah they're going to "take account" of those rejections, ie ignore them completely.

F*ck the lot of em. If we have any sense we'll get out before they make us a net contributor and bleed us dry.

Mucco

mike65 wrote:

Its main successes it seems to me were early

The EU has been amazingly successful in Monnet's main original aim. In the first half of the last century, there were two world wars focussing on Europe. Can you imagine Germany invading France today?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Yeah they're going to "take account" of those rejections, ie ignore them completely

Who's this they? Last time I checked, we were part of Europe.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mucco wrote:

Who's this they? Last time I checked, we were part of Europe.

"They" are are the EU leaders currently at a summit in Berlin.

And last time I checked we were part of a continent called Europe but a State called Ireland.

smashey

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Bunch of sovereignty-robbing bastards who stick two fingers up at democracy whenever it suits them (see oriignal Nice treaty vote and two 'No' votes to the EU constitution.

Yeah they're going to "take account" of those rejections, ie ignore them completely.

F*ck the lot of em. If we have any sense we'll get out before they make us a net contributor and bleed us dry.

It seems that we have gained quite a lot over the years. Are you suggesting we just take what we can and then run? Can we have it both ways?

oscarBravo

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

And last time I checked we were part of a continent called Europe but a State called Ireland.

...and I live in a county called Mayo, in the vicinity of a town called Ballina, in the parish of Knockmore, and in a townland called Derrygullinan.

So, enlighten me. To which of these do I owe allegiance, and which should I be clamouring for independence from?

Mr.Nice Guy

smashey wrote:

It seems that we have gained quite a lot over the years. Are you suggesting we just take what we can and then run? Can we have it both ways?

We should have run when they stuck two fingers up to Irish democracy by ignoring the original Nice Treaty rejection. Would they have asked for a second referendum if the first one had achieved the result they desired?

Is democracy to be the will of the people or the will of the European Union?

oscarBravo wrote:

...and I live in a county called Mayo, in the vicinity of a town called Ballina, in the parish of Knockmore, and in a townland called Derrygullinan.

So, enlighten me. To which of these do I owe allegiance, and which should I be clamouring for independence from?

I would think you should owe allegiance to the nation you feel you come from, be that Ireland, Mayo, Derrygullinan or wherever. You tell me.

Personally my national identity is Irish, not European, and I have no desire to see my country stripped of its sovereignty through stealthy means whilst we are shepherded into a European Superstate.

Gurgle

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

We should have run when they stuck two fingers up to Irish democracy by ignoring the original Nice Treaty rejection. Would they have asked for a second referendum if the first one had achieved the result they desired?

'They' were the Irish government who asked us to vote on a treaty without telling us what it was about. 'They' got the answer - 'not until you tell us what its about'. They told us what it was about and then we agreed to the treaty.

That is democracy.

Just because you happen to disagree with the informed vote of the majority of the country doesn't mean we should be stuck with the answer that you chose.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Personally my national identity is Irish, not European, and I have no desire to see my country stripped of its sovereignty through stealthy means whilst we are shepherded into a European Superstate.

My national identity is Irish, my racial origins are celtic, my political viewpoints are liberal socialism, but I have no desire to live in a xenophobic 2nd world separatist island state.

Thats why we get to vote on these things, so people don't get to make arbitrary decisions without consulting the rest of us.

imho, theres way too much going through the Dail without consultation.

I would have a general referendum-type vote every six months to cover every major point of law they (again, the Irish government) produced from their arses.

bonkey

Personally, I think its all a load of toss.

The EU is pushing 15, not turned 50. It was established in 1992.

OK, so its based largely on the ToR from 1957, but that doesn' t mean the EU is 50.

Can you imagine Germany invading France today?

No, but then again I'm pretty sure that they said the same in the mid-1920s.

Can I imagine Germany invading France in 20 years? Yes, I can.

I can imagine a lot of things. I can imagine war with the US within my lifetime. I can imagine the EU tearing itself apart in a series of bloody conflicts, spurred on by resource-shortages brought about by any number of causes.

Do I think these things are likely? No, not really. Then again, I don't think a Federal EU is particularly likely either in the sense that some seem to wring their hands about.

extragon

mike65 wonders about the purpose of the EU.
Freedom - for trade, capital, and people which we take totally for granted, which exists to this degree within no other supranational body, which has given so much stability and prosperity, and which would fall apart without EU regulation.
The next step must be, not more integration but more democracy at a supranational level. Those who say that there cannot be a "demos" at a European level must be faced down, or the project will always seem to lack legitimacy, and be hacked away at until it cracks. And the alternative to the EU is not a Europe of "sovereign" states. Globalization is here to stay. The alternative is a Europe run by bilateral treaties with zero transparancy, by short term political deals, by multinationals, by the US dept of trade ( when it suits it ), with the re-emergence of protectionism ( through a plethora of non tariff barriers, at first ) and the throwing away of hard won rights.

fly_agaric

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Bunch of sovereignty-robbing bastards who stick two fingers up at democracy whenever it suits them (see oriignal Nice treaty vote and two 'No' votes to the EU constitution.

Yeah they're going to "take account" of those rejections, ie ignore them completely.

F*ck the lot of em. If we have any sense we'll get out before they make us a net contributor and bleed us dry..

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Personally my national identity is Irish, not European

Are you sure your real nationality is not LittleEnglish?

Anyway, (IMO), a problems which creates negative perceptions of the EU is that PM's/Ministers really want to keep most of the power within the EU for themselves (through the council of ministers), while at the same time using the faceless "EU" as some distant whipping-boy whenever something unpopular locally is decided *by them* collectively at EU level.