Panhard M3

PanhardPL

Since the early 1960's the Defence Forces were using Panhard AML 60's & 90's, and in the late 1960s developed the Panhard M3 to meet an Irish demand for a suitable troop carrier.
1376 ZD Panhard M3.

Manic Moran

I don't know if they were developed just at Ireland's request or not, but what's the point of this thread?

NTM

PanhardPL

Manic Moran wrote:

I don't know if they were developed just at Ireland's request or not, but what's the point of this thread?

NTM

The point of the thread is simple, just to see what interest is there in Irish Military vehicles. Go and check your records and you will see we were the first customers for the M3. The French who had been using Panhard products never purchased any M3's.

Hagar

I remember seeing them, at least I'm fairly sure it was them, in Griffith Barracks around 1973/74. AFAIR they were being operated by 2nd Cav out of Cathal Brugha. We, 20th Inf, were also involved in manoeuvres with them in the Glen of Imall.

I also saw the first of the prototype Timoneys in Griffith around the same time. They were seriously impressive beside the Panhards. There were stories going around at the time that the Govt refused to commission more as they didn't want to become an arms producer as it would conflict with the "neutrality policy". I believe the manufacturing rights were sold off / licenced to FN in Belgium. I might be wrong, it was a long time ago.

PanhardPL

Hagar wrote:

I remember seeing them, at least I'm fairly sure it was them, in Griffith Barracks around 1973/74. AFAIR they were being operated by 2nd Cav out of Cathal Brugha. We, 20th Inf, were also involved in manoeuvres with them in the Glen of Imall.

I also saw the first of the prototype Timoneys in Griffith around the same time. They were seriously impressive beside the Panhards. There were stories going around at the time that the Govt refused to commission more as they didn't want to become an arms producer as it would conflict with the "neutrality policy". I believe the manufacturing rights were sold off / licenced to FN in Belgium. I might be wrong, it was a long time ago.

Your information on the Timoneys is pretty right and if you check on Karl Martins book you will see where the MKIV Timoney did enter service with the Tank Sqdn., and they were the ASI reg models. Some of the earlier prototypes still exist.

Manic Moran

Hagar wrote:

I believe the manufacturing rights were sold off / licenced to FN in Belgium. I might be wrong, it was a long time ago.

They were built by Behermen Demoen as the BDX.

However, of note is this comment in the Dail.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0320/D.0320.198005150028.html

The Irish company which produced the prototype vehicles for the Defence Forces maintain that the Belgain built vehicle is an entirely distinct vehicle, being larger and lower, having a different transmission, a different engine and cooling system and a refrigerated air conditioning system, and that none of the drawings, jigs and so on for the Irish vehicle was used in the manufacture of the Belgian vehicle.

Quite an argument in that transcript.

Go and check your records and you will see we were the first customers for the M3. The French who had been using Panhard products never purchased any M3's.

Which doesn't prove a hell of a lot in itself. Defense contractors often come up with ideas first and try to get militaries to buy them. Just because one is a launch customer does not mean that one requested the design. Ireland would have been the first military customer for the Sikorskiy S-92, until the contract got nixed, doesn't mean the product was made to fit Irish requirements. I shall see what I can track down.

NTM

PanhardPL

Hagar wrote:

I remember seeing them, at least I'm fairly sure it was them, in Griffith Barracks around 1973/74. AFAIR they were being operated by 2nd Cav out of Cathal Brugha. We, 20th Inf, were also involved in manoeuvres with them in the Glen of Imall.

I also saw the first of the prototype Timoneys in Griffith around the same time. They were seriously impressive beside the Panhards. There were stories going around at the time that the Govt refused to commission more as they didn't want to become an arms producer as it would conflict with the "neutrality policy". I believe the manufacturing rights were sold off / licenced to FN in Belgium. I might be wrong, it was a long time ago.

Just to clarify the situation re the purchase of Timoneys by the Defence Forces. The first five were ordered in 1977 and known as the MKIV and fitted with petrol engines and supplied to the 1st Tank Squadron, to be replaced in 1983 by five more newer models, known as MKVI and fitted with turbo diesel engines and they remained in service until 1999. A Mark IV is preserved at the National Transport Museum in Howth and a Mark VI is held in the Curragh.
Tho following photos may give you an idea as to how similar the BDX is to the MarkIV.

Timoney MKIV (rear)

BDX (front)

IMG]http://i14.tinypic.com/42ittg7.jpg[/IMG] BDX (rear)

Timoney MKVI

Manic Moran

Well, FWIW, Jane's has the M3VTT listed as being a private venture by Panhard, so unless someone pops up with a reference saying that DFHQ asked Panhard "Lads, can you come up with an APC based off the AML?", I think it more likely they just had some enterprising engineers.

As for the BDX/Timoney comparison, it seems the BDX is a sort of MkV/MkVI hybrid. It's about a ton heavier, has the track of the MkV, the wheelbase of the MkVI, runs on a different electrical system, smaller fuel tank, isn't quite as mobile (as determined by max gradiant (70 degrees for a MkVI!) or side slope, and has minor differences such as seating arrangement.

However, in effect, of course, as we all know it's just a license-built Timoney.

NTM

Victor

Some of those pics are huge, can't they be linked instead of being included?

cyclop

hi
i was one of the 3 prople involved in the upgrade of the m3 to buffalo std. in the 1980's
if anyone has any questions i will try my best to answer them
only 16 of them were ever converted
you can tell quickly from the outside if you are looking at a converted one or not
a converted one has large exhausts covered with a mesh basket and a different roof vent

tac foley

Cyclop, you might be an interesting man to know for the newly-opened museum in Meath.

Unless, of course, you already are part of it!

tac

tac foley

Victor wrote: »

Some of those pics are huge, can't they be linked instead of being included?

I agree - I think that what I'm looking at in the largest image is the front right mirror folded in - hard to say as the image would measure almost a metre wide if I had a screen big enuff to show it.

tac

Stovepipe

looking at that Timoney, what possessed the designer not to put protection on the exhaust? One splinter or bullet hole and it'd wake the dead. What were they thinking?.....incidentally, the M3 sold like hot cakes to the former French colonies and it still crops up in local wars out there in Africa. It must have been a nightmare to drive in hot climates.

regards
Stovepipe

cyclop

tac foley wrote: »

Cyclop, you might be an interesting man to know for the newly-opened museum in Meath.

Unless, of course, you already are part of it!

tac

Hi Tac
no i am not part of it
i just came accross this thread by chance
i i think i have some photos somwhere i will dig them out and post them here
i am still friends with the other guy who was working on the project with me he might have some as well

arybvtcw0eolkf

Stovepipe wrote: »

looking at that Timoney, what possessed the designer not to put protection on the exhaust? One splinter or bullet hole and it'd wake the dead. What were they thinking?.....incidentally, the M3 sold like hot cakes to the former French colonies and it still crops up in local wars out there in Africa. It must have been a nightmare to drive in hot climates.

regards
Stovepipe

Have you ever heard the M3's exhaust notes around the wadi's of south Lebanon?. I'm not joking when I say you could hear hear them from miles away.

They were awful in hot weather for both the crew and troops being carried.

Awful things altogether, then the pure luxury of the SISU when I served with the FMR.

Stovepipe

I had one trip in an M3. never, ever again.You couldn't give me one for free.