How much pain can you take?

jimmy9183

Hi all,
I’m new here. great forum!

I’ve been practicing for 20 over years and I have come to believe that pain and injuries, and the ability to endure them may be a big factor in deciding the outcome of a fight/match? anyone agree? most of the time, the emphasis it seems is to focus on one's skills/abilities/technical proficiency etc.
but the fact and reality of fighting remains - however good one is, if one does not have a high pain threshold, one will succumb quickly at the first sign of pain/injury/blood. so the question is, how does one handle pain?
is there a mental/physical training to withstand pain? how would you react to, say, a broken nose, teeth, a kick to the groin/ribs, a broken arm(amber)?

The question is, will you/should one carry on fighting despite a bloodied face or simply surrender?

Millionaire

depends on the situation...

when I was younger, I used to get hurt..then one day I decided I would not let it bother me no more...and it rarely does.

Now I will tap out of an arm lock of course, I do not want a snapped elbow.

Strikes are different usually.

In general I can take alot of pain...its more when endurance goes I slow up.

A busted nose, say badly bleeding but not broke, I will spar on. (but coach would want me to stop).

In the street twice I have been bottled across the face, and one of them was after a full unexpect right in the eye. and when the adreline and survival instinct kicked in (and total aggressive violence), pain did not enter my head at all...and both times had multiple attackers with strikes come from all directions. the next day I was sore...but I held my head high and new I caused those knacker b*astards serious pain too.

I believe with mental training and visualization and lots of sparring, you can turn your fear and weakness into strenght, if you really want to. It all starts up in the head...decide you will fight through, and your chances go way way up of doing so.

In real life...you got no choice.

even in the house if I bang my shin of say the metal leg of the bed, and it hurts, I refuse to acknowldge it, and in training unless its really bad, I refuse to let anyone see my pain. Its not a guarantee, but my pain tollerence has gone up massively, since I made this mental decision.

And if yuo get KO'ed you never feel it anyway...its only when you come round, the pounding head starts. its kind of funny, a KO blow, is sort of a nice dreamy feeling before you come around.

Just think of the 10 hunger strikers who lived in squalor where they had to rub their own excrement on the wall and endure daily beatings off prision screws for 4 years with no heat in the cells in winter, and then some went up to 90 days without food before dying for their country and freedom, giving their young lives, think of that...and a busted nose in sparring is not too bad!

mark.leonard

While I disagree in principle with part of your post Jimmy, that being - I believe any1 that lets their arm get snapped is a moron, there are degrees of pain that unfortunately come with the fight game as you said. I think fighters need to be able to carry on regardless if they wind up on the back foot for a part of a match. 2 fighters I think embody this ability the best are Tom Haddock and Black Dragon Kickboxer Ken Horan.
Tom's strength in many ways is that he can absorb a lot of punishment and not let it affect him mentally, when I start getting hit, be it ground and pound or standing up, I'll be the first to admit that I start worrying about it, taking away form my focus of dealing positively with it and turning the situation around. Tom on the other hand seems to barely notice that he is being hit and continues to work his game like the seasoned veteran that he is.

Ken also has this ability in spades, he fought a German international fighter a couple years ago who was renowned for his punching power. Mid way through the first round he put Ken on the mat with a thunderous left hook, which immediately raised a mouse over his eye. Second round he put Ken down again adding more damage. Ken kept his chin down and toughed it out, absorbing the bombs being thrown his way. At the start of the third round all of a sudden the direction of the fight changed, the German Brawler was starting to lose power in his shots as he had pushed so hard to finish Ken in the first two, for the next three rounds Ken gave him a kickboxing lesson before stopping him at the end of the fifth! Not something you would be able to do if you can't take a little punishment either.

Dragan

I will happily say that for most sports struggling on through an injury that’s more than cosmetic is just stupid.

Do you want to take part in your sport for a long time and be a success? Good, because spening 6 months sitting out because you were too stupid to just say "**** it, I'm really hurt" and made your injury worse is to be honest, no ones fault but your own.

You have a responsibility to yourself to ensure a safe and healthy environment to train and compete in. You have a responsibility to yourself to be honest and open about injuries with yourself and your coach.

Hardman theatrics are best left for the cinema screen and internet forums.

dlofnep

I cry like a little girl at the thought of getting out of bed in the morning. I think a pain threshold coincides with understanding. If you're not a good striker and someone unleashes a barrage of punches on you, chances are you're going to curl up even if it's not hurting all that much.. But if you understand the striking game in this instance, you'll defend, absorb and counter - all under the one thought.

Datsik can absorb an insane amount of pain, more than most - but he's not exactly the most successful fighter.

Millionaire

Dragan wrote:

Hardman theatrics are best left for the cinema screen and internet forums.

If you want to be a good at MA...you must make yourself hard.

MA in their original form were hard, look at Mas Oyama, Old Muay Thai, Old Kung Fu etc etc.

If you make your mind hard, your body will become hard in time...assuming your train alot.

That carries over to other parts of life in a positive way too.

You should train hard and get stuck in.

I my view, whiners should look for another sport.

Look how watered down MA in USA and indeed Europe has become all to make more money for the school owners. thats just a sell out.

I am not talking about hurting students, but if you are an experience martial artist, and you know your body and abilities, and you want to fight on, then its your call.

padraigcarroll

Millionaire wrote:

I am not talking about hurting students, but if you are an experience martial artist, and you know your body and abilities, and you want to fight on, then its your call.

howdy,

i think thats a flawed view, just from the point that, in boxing for example where the athletes take ridiculous amounts of punishment yet keep going back for more, that kind of thinking can result in brain damage / death..... unless for example the towel is thrown in.
so even if u dont mean to talk about hurting students, that way of thinking can very well do so.

I think Dragan is making the distinction between enduring pain and working through injuries that you should get attended to instead of working through and making worse.
And he is dead right, I recently damaged both rotator cuffs because I ignored a problem.

Also,
as regards pain... it's a strange thing, because stubbing your toe is more painfull than being hit over the head with a lump hammer..... but just because u can stand being hit with a lump hammer but cry like a little girl when u stub your toe, doesnt make you a whinger!

I think Mental preparation, physical preparation, a good team around you and the common sense to let injuries heal properly is the best way to stay on top of your game.

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

If you want to be a good at MA...you must make yourself hard.

In a sense, I agree, in another, I don't. Sure, getting hit and thrown builds up an element of mental toughness, thats a given. But theres a fine line between being hard and just being stupid. Like getting banged up in training- why bother? Its just training, and there's still work tomorrow, customers to face, kids at home you'd like to pick up without dropping from a pain in your elbow.

You should train hard and get stuck in.

Agree totally. Why do something if you're not going to do it 100% while you're there.

Look how watered down MA in USA and indeed Europe has become all to make more money for the school owners. thats just a sell out.

Yes, but theres another way of looking at this. Look how many people are doing a healthy activity like martial arts who wouldn't have done it before if there was only one "hard man" level to slot in to. I hate watching points kickboxing, but it has given a lot of people a sporting outlet and and opportunity to compete and train at their own pace and level of contact.

There's a level for everyone, or at least there should be. Being "tough" shouldn't come into it. Toughest guys I've ever seen weren't martial artists they were Rugby players- hit after hit, no fear of the next tackle. Yet at the same time, kids, women, older men still play rugby at many, many different levels. Are they all as "hard" as Dennis Leamy?

To be frank Gerry, I think attitudes like your are what keeps a lot of people away from martial arts who think they're not "tough enough" to do it. It may even help recruitment into your much hated light contact kickboxing.

columok

One Sunday morning roll I asked Mick Leonard to have a 100 % MMA League rules match with me as preparation for the upcoming MMA league. At the time I had never done a single boxing or thai class, had little MMA experience and so on. Mick kept asking me why I kept the fight standing. I replied that I was trying to get used to being hit. Mick laughed at me and said "Don't be a fvcking eedgit O'Queef. Just don't get hit".

Resolve always matters but that's a mental thing as far as I'm concerned. It's infinitely more beneficial to focus your training on conditioning and skill development. In the adrenaline situation your resolve will come out anyway but it's your skills or conditioning that are infinitely more likely to win the fight.

As for not tapping: Well I need my hands to earn my living so it would be stupid of me to risk my elbow being broken when at the end of the day it's only a sport. Better to live and fight another day...

crokester

For me theres nothing special about MA's in terms of mental toughnes necessary! We just break a different type of frontier; one that seems like its especially demanding over other sports only because it involves the taboo that is two men/women trying to hurt each other. What sport would you suggest Mill that you move to if your a whinger!? Rugby!? Rowing!? Athletics!? Soccer!? (ok bad example!).

Personally my head has become somewhat more hardened to combat sports and been punched around the noggin but if you asked me to play a game of Hurling id refuse outright! Ask yourself the question whose pain threshold gets tested most during a competitive meet; a fighter or a rower? Id say the rower every time, every ounce of those of those guys muscle fibers are screaming at them to stop at about half way through the race.

If your competing Muay Thai say and youve got elbows reighning down on top of you you need to be hardened to the pain yes, but i dont think the pain is any greater then what Ronan O Gara went through last Satarday. More then that you need to have overcome the fact that intentional violence is been done on you by someone seeking to put you unconcious because at that point you have to confront all the taboos and lessons you learnt about such encounters, (ie their intrinsicly bad). Some of this is genetic (fight or flight) some of this is absorbed from a your surroundings.

The same adrenaline rush is not there for a rugby player only becuase of the lack of intent on behalf of his opponenet. His opppenent didnt seek to hurt him but to take him to the ground and get the ball. This produces an entirelly different response to the same given pain level experienced in a ring. We as humans consider intent to be very important. If you remember hitting the chair when you kicked your toe on it and hurt yourself as a kid youl know what i mean!

In short; same pain, different circumstances, different mental response, different demands

DAGEROUSDAVE

A good way of testing ur pain threshold in my opinion is this:

Get a partner and start leg kicks (without blocking them). Start off light and then build up to heavy kicks (right in the centre of the thigh).
You and your partner stand there taking turns at absorbing the pain. Start with outside thigh, then inside shin, then outside shin, then inside shin.

I have done this loads of times and it does seperate the men form the boys.
BTW... ur legs will be a wee bit sore for the rest of the day if done right.;)

columok

Surely thats a very specific pain threshold Dave? Would it compare to torture, childbirth, blah blah blah? That's a test for how well you can take leg kicks. Not a test for any of the other forms of pain...

Dragan

DAGEROUSDAVE wrote:

I have done this loads of times and it does seperate the men form the boys.
BTW... ur legs will be a wee bit sore for the rest of the day if done right.;)

columok wrote:

Surely thats a very specific pain threshold Dave? Would it compare to torture, childbirth, blah blah blah? That's a test for how well you can take leg kicks. Not a test for any of the other forms of pain...

Would agree with Colm all day. The guys i spar with do conditioning at the end of each days sparring. It's no gloves, shots to the ribs and stomach. I'm not sure but i believe that someone here may have seen the results at ROT 4? I had a bruise going from my side to my navel. It was lovely.

Was it big and clever? Nope, because i couldn't do conditioning for about 4 weeks until the swelling went down. That was me being an idiot.

Legs kick and shots to the side i will take all day. Not sure why, i have big muscley meaty legs so i suppose that might at something but i distinctly remember one of the guys putting in his best shots into my quads and being distinctly worried that i was having a good time.

Good shots to the stomach however will drop me every time.

Taking a shot is so specific to that person and their training past, conditioning past, mental attitude and physiological development it's crazy. Hit me in the face and i'll smile, hit me in the guts and i'll crumble.

DAGEROUSDAVE

Ok, point taken guys. I'll admit everyone is different. Although i have meaty enough legs myself, i always wince in pain at a well placed leg kick to the thigh. A shot to the liver is very painful too.
I suppose both of these are my kryptonite!:rolleyes:

Mark Hamill

There is a difference between fighting through pain and fighting through injury. I can fight through a lot of pain, I wont tap to pain compliance moves (knee ride, judo fist etc).
However while i could probably fight through a broken arm (eg from an armbar) I am not going to because that is stupid.
Yes i can take the pain, hell i might even win the fight, but i would miss out on so much training that i would end up a worse fighter for it.

So while i partially agree with Millionaire in that you should be tough in martial arts (when i train for any competition that includes strikes, i always try to do more stand up training and add striking when fighting on the ground because i do not want to be dropped with a body shot),
i also agree with Roper in that different things are tough for different people (you might find points sparring to be easy and absolutely no drain on you while someone else finds it the most physically demanding sport in the world, but then again you might find calculus tough while they find it second nature)

Nothingcompares

As people have mentioned before there are different types of pain. There's the pain you get when someone hits you really hard which is a signal to up your game/defend better (check kicks) or change range. Then there's the pain that's a signal that something bad is going to happen (arm bar pain - ligament snapping, bone breaking). So simply, it's the difference between pain as a sign of pain and pain as a precursor to being hurt/injured.

'tough' people will have a high pain threshold or an ability to deal with the first type of pain and keep going. top athletes will also have conditioning for the type of shots that results in this pain (kyokushin blackbelt will be able to 'take' lots of thigh kicks as result of this conditioning and 'touhghing up').

We all agree we wouldn't give up in a fight because we got a swollen lip but when it comes to tapping out of an armbar and losing and not tapping out of an armbar and ruining the risk of long term injury at the slight chance of an escape we would all veer to the safe side.

To compete in any full contact sport (some semi contact - some of the most annoying blows I've taken have been in TKD) you have to be conditioned to the bread and butter of the contact. So a judo guys gets thrown 10 times a day, 3 days a week for 3 years he should be able to be thrown in a match and be able to get back up no problems (first because of correct falling/break falling technique and secondly due to conditioning and thirdly due to a toughness of not letting the superficial knocks get to you). Same story with a Muay Thai guy, a similar amount of sparring and the resultant leg kicks, body punches should result in a level of conditioning and toughness that will prevent a loss from these types of strikes.

However, the more relevant question is, how do you train this conditioning? In Judo we often do throwing practice to improve your throwing technique, and as a result the other person gets conditioned to being thrown. Of course sparring is also very important for developing this conditioning. In MT I presume it's similar, the conditioning comes from sparring. However, in Kyokushin there is specific practice for building up leg conditioning, for both the kicker and the receiver. I'm less sure if this type of training is necessary for MMA. It's more relevant to Kyokushin competition because the bouts seem to be as much a test of endurance as of technique (less punches to the head leads to less KOs.)

paddyc

talkin to my wee mate in thailand today mick "starsky" pazsowski

he fought last friday for a southern thailand title got a burst ear drum and 3 broken ribs from it and it fightin again next friday with said burst ear drum and broken ribs

theres a dvd of a old kings birthday tournament and the thai fighter discolates his shoulder at start of 3rd rnd and fights on thru the round till he can get it popped back in at end of 3rd... youd need to be a toughie to do some stuff like that..

I myself find it better to talk about this stuff on the internet rather than do any actual training:)


paddy

judomick

there was a thread recently about the toughest guys, Tom Crean etc was one of the notable inclusions, im sure he had a high pain threshold, theres probably hundreds of other cases whereby people have endured incredible pain and still fought through the situation having a high pain threshold does not make you a good fighter in fact i would argue it makes you a bad one (in the long run), i 4 ft of intestine removed due to gangrene i only really felt it the day i went to hospital, the doctors were amazed i hadnt come in a week or so before citing that the pain should have been unbearable whereas i thought it was gas or mild heartburn, they said i had an extremely high pain threshold, yet still if i get punched, or Matt thornton puts his knee on my head or JK or Andy use the flying fist of Judo:D , i wince and would very much like to cry,

so in closing having a high pain threshold imo opinion would probably hinder you as a fighter rather than enhance you

Millionaire

Roper wrote:

To be frank Gerry, I think attitudes like your are what keeps a lot of people away from martial arts who think they're not "tough enough" to do it. It may even help recruitment into your much hated light contact kickboxing.

LOL! Actually your probably right about me Barry, pass no remarks on me....old skool, and cannot teach old dogs new tricks!

Up KoKoro www.mma-ireland.com those guys I love...from the brief few months I spent there, before I moved to Thailand! Sorry Shane, if I am giving the wrong impression, but I think the time we had training together Rocked!!! As your Master Jon Bluming said, you told me...."if it is not full contact, then it is not Karate!"

Roper

No offence intended Gerry.:D But there are plenty of people out there who are "tough enough", but just don't now it yet and won't ever know it if they're too intimidated to join.

RedXIV

columok wrote:

standing. I replied that I was trying to get used to being hit. Mick laughed at me and said "Don't be a fvcking eedgit O'Queef. Just don't get hit".

I remember going for one of my first tournaments when i was a young impressionable, inspired the the images in Street fighter and the turtles, determined to become as "hardcore" as them i asked my instructor, what was the best way to get used to getting hit alot. his anwser was the same as above.

To this day, i'm well used to the idea of conditioning but all it takes is someone to sneeze at one of my knees and i'll break down and cry.

cowzerp

The other day i went to the dentist to get my wisdom tooth removed after 8 days of pain-nobody even knew about my sore tooth as i just accepted it and knew i was seeing the dentist 8 days later-he took it out no problem and i went back to work-all my workmates where saying you need time off etc...
last year i broke my kneecap playing soccer in a 50-50 sliding tackle with some huge fecker, i got up and played on for about 4 mins trying to run it off-i hate players who roll around with a deadleg-if i get punched in the head hard in a fight i just brush it off, but if my girlfriend pinches me for no reason this pain bugs me! this is because pain is a mental thing and im not switched on for pain all the time. if my arm is sore because its about to break then i tap-if its sore from bruising-tough. pain does not control me.
that sounds hard!

The Shane

You guys are all crazy.

I think all this purposeful mental conditioning to pain is a bit on the edge. If you compete and enjoy competition you'll become accustomed to the knocks of the sport. As long as any given pain doesn't overwhelm you you'll train through the little bruises, the occasional sprain and so.

If you go training to test your mental resolve to take pain you're a nutjob and the positive effects of any of this training we do are lost on you. Self defence - because you'r edoing yourself damage. Enjoyment - cos you limp through the rest of the week. Health - cos you're insane and damaging yourself. Friendship and comraderie - because any reasonable person thinks you're crazy and you're left in the corner alone headbutting the wall.

Go training because you enjoy, train at a pace and intensity that you and your training partner can enjoy.

Any heavy training should be predecided and in theory based around skill acquisition ie. not taking heavy knocks for the sake of it but because a good training partner tagged you just enough and often for you to learn and vice versa.

I hurt my little toe a bit last week and took a couple of days off.

In terms of mental toughness and fight winning, I think that is more mental than sensory. I doubt Tom Haddock can resist a chinese burn any longer than the next man but in a fight he realises the damage inflicted is minimal and that this is a competitive environment so he mentally composes himself rather than being some sort of Darkman superhero.

Shane, The
Biatch

Odysseus

I have to say this is an interesting thread, I was thinking about it whilst I was out running today. Just to throw my own thoughts out there on as both a martial artist and an endurance runner, I have to say personally I think it comes down the individuals psychology. I suppose firstly to train and welcome pain into your life is pathological, nothing wrong with that we all have our own pathologies to work though.

Various people have noted similarities and dissimilarities between MA and endurance sports and whilst I think that doing both has helped me do better in each I also think there are differences too. From my own experience of sparring it can be painful but it is safe, the same with some of the drills metioned above, difficult yes, requiring lots of psychological toughness yes. However, sparring is very time limited, very few if any will spar continuiosly for hours.

The same applies to endurance sports apart from the time frame as these go on a lot longer, my longest event took me over 12 hours to finish. To give an example of the diffence I am trying to highlight I will give an example from my experience of both. I am just back from the Sahara where I was doing a marathon, it was for me the toughest thing I ever did. I did the first half in near enough my normal time, it took almost another three hours with a high quality of pain to finish. It added an extra hour on to my usual time as its a very unforgiving environment. You don't really get this in MA, the pain may be of a more intense nature, but generally it is also of a short one. You will generally get knocked out or the sparring would be stopped if it was that intense. I have no experience of competing but I reckon it similar.

A recent sparring event which was enjoyable but also humbling for me was where I train hosted a crazy monkey seminar, can't remember the guys name who came over from the UK to do it. Some Irish guys who had been training in this for a while joined us. Now they were more experienced in this system than I was so sparring with them using that system was difficult for me, I took more hits than I was giving, so I was learning which is good.

My mindset is always different depending on which I'm doing, though there are alot of similarities, for me it come down to the only one I'm competing against is me. When I sparring it a case of I am staying here to the end, I may feel frightened but that doesn't matter I here now. However, my aim here is to strike my partner, so that's what I aim for and if I get hit so be it, I'll have to do better next time. Whereas with long distance running, I have a 60k and a 100k coming up I have to just except this is going to hurt and no matter what I do it isn't going to stop until the end. Whereas with sparring I may be better than my partner thereby limiting the amount of pain I encounter.

For me this is one of the places where NLP can help people to improve, I generally don't have much time for it except in relation to sports, though I much acknowledge my education in this subject is somewhat limited. As it is about putting something in to the psyche, a person can develope the psychological investment in finishing either the round or the race, developing what Frued called the ego-ideal. Hope this makes a bit of sense, but it just my own thoughts on the subject.

Bazookatone

I remember one day when I was in school, two of my friends decided to see who was tougher by having a competition; each one would get to kick the other in the balls until one of them gave in.

Steve (the eejit who suggested it) had to be kicked first, so he stood up opened his legs and braced himself. John (who was wearing massive New Rock boots) kicked him as hard as he could. Steve crumpled up, whimpered a bit, there were some tears. After a minute or two he stood up. John smiled and said Steve was indeed tougher than him, and walked off, completely unscathed.
Who do you think won?

The reason I told this (true, I swear to god) story is to illustrate this funny preoccupation that so many men have with some "macho" idea of being tough. When I hear stories of people training with broken legs or ribs or conditioning themselves to the point where they kill the nerves in their hands, I am briefly impressed, cause it sounds cool. But in the long term, what's the point? Is it going to say on your headstone "here lies a really tough guy"?

Personally, martial arts is a part of my life, but not the biggest part. I would rate myself as having average skill, and my sparring is quite woeful, but I dnon't envy the people that I've seen who's life's work is purely to become as "hard" as possible. I think they've missed the point.

That's just me, now, I don't mean to sound preachy.

Blazer

Bazookatone wrote:

I remember one day when I was in school, two of my friends decided to see who was tougher by having a competition; each one would get to kick the other in the balls until one of them gave in.

Steve (the eejit who suggested it) had to be kicked first, so he stood up opened his legs and braced himself. John (who was wearing massive New Rock boots) kicked him as hard as he could. Steve crumpled up, whimpered a bit, there were some tears. After a minute or two he stood up. John smiled and said Steve was indeed tougher than him, and walked off, completely unscathed.
Who do you think won?

The reason I told this (true, I swear to god) story is to illustrate this funny preoccupation that so many men have with some "macho" idea of being tough. When I hear stories of people training with broken legs or ribs or conditioning themselves to the point where they kill the nerves in their hands, I am briefly impressed, cause it sounds cool. But in the long term, what's the point? Is it going to say on your headstone "here lies a really tough guy"?

Personally, martial arts is a part of my life, but not the biggest part. I would rate myself as having average skill, and my sparring is quite woeful, but I dnon't envy the people that I've seen who's life's work is purely to become as "hard" as possible. I think they've missed the point.

That's just me, now, I don't mean to sound preachy.

Steve might have been tougher but John was smarter.At the end of the day it's not the toughest fighter who walks away, but the smartest. Knowing when to fighter, when not to fight, make fast decisions, assesssing your opponent, checking for his weaknesses are all examples of intelligence. That's not to say that toughness is less than intelligence but both are needed as well as speed, accuracy, stamina, technique. Together all 6 make you a formidable fighter imo and definitely not someone who'd people would want to mess with.

potor

<snippity snip>

judomick

and its only $7 :rolleyes: