Guitar amp tone: my snobbery demolished

Grolschevik

This is a weird one for me. Years ago, all I ever used was a solid-state Peavey combo, a wah, a really cheap chorus, and occasionally a Boss HM pedal.

Then I got wise (as I saw it then). I got me a 100w vintage Laney valve head, and retrofitted my two 2x12" speaker cabs with Celestions. I progressed, then, and picked up a really old Korg multi-effects unit that I used with some selected analogue pedals. Then I bought a Marshall JTM45 reissue.

Then I decided that I needed to replace all my floor gear with as much dedicated analogue stuff as I could. Which I duly did, and mounted on a floorboard.

Then I joined a band that was actually proactive about seeking gigs.

Imagine my surprise, then, when at a gig recently, while my tone sounded (to my ears on-stage) excellent, the guitarist of the other band also sounded excellent (my ears being front of house now). The difference? He was using a Squier Tele and a Marshall AVT job, the sort of one with the four channels and acoustic sim and built in DSP effects. No pedals, just the amp footswitch.

I'll say again: really, his live guitar tone was fantastic; great lead tone, great crunch... it was all there. It was probably better than mine at the front of house (though I'd bet for mine in the studio).

So this raises a question. Should we all just get cheapo AVT or Line 6 or whatever amps for the gigs and save our (increasingly rare) valves for our studio excursions?

I'm telling you, my valve and analogue snobbery has been dealt a severe blow, to the extent that I'm thinking of picking up a ****ty used solid-state combo just to bring to certain gigs. At least then, if it's stolen or breaks, I won't care.

feylya

My opinion is, keep all the fancy expensive stuff for the studio. Only bring out the stuff you don't mind loosing or breaking. If you have a nice guitar that plays well and an amp that makes a sound you like, then forget all the snobbiness about all valve amps and hand make stuff. That stuff will sound better in the studio but your average drunk punter won't give a crap as long as you play Freebird.

Voodu Child

My only advice is:

Trust your ears and not your peers. Dont laugh at guys who are happy with their MGs and squires, and don't hide jealousy behind labels like 'gear snobbery' when it comes to high-end stuff. Just do your own thing.

Don't be looking over your shoulder at what the other guy is playing. If youre happy with a cheap & cheerful setup, go with it. If you get a shot of a high-end valve amp and it knocks you off your feet with tone that inspires you, by all means GAS after it.

Meh, who cares, so long as youre riffing away its all good:D

Karl Hungus

voodoo_child wrote:

Trust your ears and not your peers.

I cannot agree more.

Doctor J

I play through a solid state Ampeg 2x12 combo. I couldn't give a **** what anyone thinks of it, it sounds perfect to me. I switch it on, it sounds exactly the same as last time, no wearing out valves, no biasing, no need for an electrical engineering degree. I will be using it in the studio in a few weeks too because, to me, it sounded a lot better than the Marshall DSL stack that was in there. My desire to buy anything valve is zero. The market is flooded with pieces of crap with valves in them as a feature, especially pedals for some reason as if "Oooh it has a valve in it, it must be good!" Get the sound you like, not what other guitarists like, it doesn't really matter what it takes to get it once you're happy.

Quattroste

Basturds. You Basturds :mad: I spent thousands on valve amps and top class guitars and your telling me that I could sound just as crap as I do now with cheap gear!

Another question. Do you ever notice how good your gear sounds when someone else is playing it! Kinda like other people's j's always taste better

Paladin

Well Ive been saying for a long time that valve amps only exhibit their great valve sound when driven beyond the max and are distorting nicely. However you cannot modulate the volume correctly when doing this so I think valve amps are an overpriced impractical option.
Most playing is done in the bedroom so you cant have your amp blasting at full volume, and consequently just have the same tone as if it was a solid-state with the same pre-amp & speakers.
I have actually built my own power amp and hooked it up to a Vox AC-15 so I could switch between the valve and solid-state power amps on the fly. The resulting sound was indistinguishable except for one tiny flaw that I hadnt matched the gain perfectly so the volume levels could be heard to be different when examined carefully in a recording.

That said, if you overdrive the Vox output it sounds great. Overdrive a solid-state and it just clips and sounds crap.

NeMiSiS

I had an AVT275, I sold it caused I moved to Spain for a while. But I loved it. Was not mad on the acoustic sim, but I liked the Overdrives, and the clean channel was nice. It had 14 in built effects which were nice, especially the delay. I have a TSL 100 now, which I love, but at low volumes it aint worth talking about, but I still love it.

I think live it is the PA that makes th big difference, I would prefer the TSL micced throuh a PA rather than the AVT, that was when I found it a small bit bland.

Anyway..
TK

Voodu Child

I don't think this thread is about valve vs solid state, thats kind of missing the point. Thats an argument thats going to go nowhere fast, because theres just as many lads playing ENGLs, Mesas, Matamps, Diezels etc here as there are guys playing AVTs and the like...

So i wouldnt be bothered posting 'valve amps are great/crap for xyz reason' or 'solid state are great/crap for xyz reason'. Thats been done already a million times, we all know the differences, and have decided ourselves, based on our ears and our wallets.

I thought the point of the thread was more about throwing away pre-concieved notions REGARDLESS of whether youre talking about low-end or high-end, and just trusting your ears when it comes to picking gear.

Paladin

In regard to the statement "cheapo ATV's"...

They are overpriced. Massively. I have an AVT275 and a Laney LV300H.
Through the same speakers on the clean channel the Laney sounds nicer imo.
Hence Laney *upgrade* despite being much cheaper.

As for the Valve Vs Solid State Argument... it rages on. I believe this thread was about the realisation that cheaper gear can sound as good and sometimes better than expensive gear (at least in a live gig). Generally expensive amps have valves. They also tend to have quality speakers.
People comparing combo's often forget the importance of the speaker quality and the type of cab. They tend to attribute a better sound entirely to a little valve in the electronic circuitry, which is of course completely incorrect.

Someone mentioned the importance of the PA for live gigs. Have to completely agree. Pity its so expensive

To the original poster:
Maybe the guy on the AVT was very good at setting up his live sound? Perhaps you would sound better than him with him or his sound engineer working for you

-=al=-

once it sounds good tis aok,

Johnny Storm

Quattroste wrote:

...I could sound just as crap as I do now with cheap gear!
.....

I hear ya, man;)

Grolschevik

Paladin wrote:

As for the Valve Vs Solid State Argument... it rages on. I believe this thread was about the realisation that cheaper gear can sound as good and sometimes better than expensive gear (at least in a live gig).

True!

Paladin wrote:

Someone mentioned the importance of the PA for live gigs. Have to completely agree.

Yeah, people spend thousands buying expensive valve amps, but in most cases, live, that'll be reamplified through a solid state desk. If desks are that high-fidelity that they can do this well, why not just go with a valve preamp pedal and an SS power amp combo like tech 21 do? Or just go SS all the way? As someone said above, leave the expensive stuff at home.

Another point is that -- no matter how many factories are now still making valves, or whether Groove Tubes have reopened a factory, or whatever -- valves will die out. Within the next decade, the modellers will eventually get it right, for all purposes. So hanging onto a valve amp may not make economic sense. 20 years, everyone will be using some modelling stuff, because the valve factories will have closed. Anyone still play a harpsichord, apart from those able to buy an original or pay extraordinary amounts to get one made for them new? Valves are on the way out. I'm depressed about that in one sense, but, if the modellers get the tones and response right, should it matter?

Paladin wrote:

To the original poster:
Maybe the guy on the AVT was very good at setting up his live sound? Perhaps you would sound better than him with him or his sound engineer working for you

We shared the engineer. He was a class player though, despite him only being playing for 4 years, as opposed to my 17. As they always say, tone starts in the fingers.

That said, I still want a Rivera...

Voodu Child

Im too lazy to type out a long winded post, so i'll just say i (respectfully) disagree with pretty much all of your last post there Grolsh.

Karl Hungus

Grolschevik wrote:

Valves are on the way out.

And the funny thing is, people have been saying exactly that for decades, yet here we are in the year 2007, and lots of people are still using valves.

The argument is identical to the whole vinyl thing. People have been saying that vinyl was on the way out for even longer, and yet there are people out there still buying vinyl records.

If that doesn't convince you how ridiculous it is to state that something is "On it's way out" then look up the music history books, circa 1962, where Decca Records rejected The Beatles on the basis that "Guitar music is on it's way out."

p-nut

Karl Hungus wrote:

If that doesn't convince you how ridiculous it is to state that something is "On it's way out" then look up the music history books, circa 1962, where Decca Records rejected The Beatles on the basis that "Guitar music is on it's way out."

Probably one of the biggest mistakes known to man;) Id say whoever made the decisions in Decca was kickin himself a few years down the line:D

Doctor J

I'd actually largely agree with Grolsh, though I don't think they'll die out altogether, there's still too much stubbornness to move with the times in guitarists. It doesn't appear to me to be anything remotely similar to the vinyl arguement, people don't bring record players in vans to gigs, other bands aren't using their record player either, there isn't a great physical effort in owning a record player, nor a substantial investment, nor continual maintenance. Sensible people will tire of lugging great big amps into venues when they see the clear disadvantage over using modelling, both in terms of tone and sheer pysical effort. The way I see it happening is people copping on to bringing Pods and the likes to gigs and plugging them straight into PAs. The results: vastly clearer sound on stage making musicians happier, much easier for the engineer to make the sound better out front too, no fighting the racket coming from the stage. All this talk of thousands of €€€ worth of amp when the SM57 mic'ing it is solid state and costs, what, about €90? Once it sounds good, yeah? I know Megadeth were using Line6 modelling at their gig in the Ambassador last year (yes, despite the obligatory wall of Marshalls on stage ). The times are a changin. Think how far modelling technology has come in the last few years. Think how much Pods have gotten better since they came out. Pods are good enough to gig and record with now. Fact. They will get better too and venues will start pushing for them. Will guitarists move with the times or continue to rumble around with senseless amounts of gear? The latter, largely, but there will be a change towards embracing technology, I am sure of it, though it will be slow.

Voodu Child

Doctor J wrote:

All this talk of thousands of €€€ worth of amp when the SM57 mic'ing it is solid state and costs, what, about €90?

It doesnt really matter what's mic'ing it, i don't see how that is relevant. Thats like saying 'your ears don't have valves in them so why waste all that money on a valve amp..'

The valves in a good guitar amp DO something, they arent just 'little valves in an electronic circuit' like someone said above. They clip in a wonderful non-linear manner, the struggling transformer and power-reg circuit cause the power valve to 'sag' in a beautiful way, they do amazingly beautiful things with harmonic overtones that SS can't even hope to emulate yet

A good valve amp is an instrument, it reacts and responds and breathes in the most touch friendly way. If you think of an amp as just a big box that makes you louder, and NOT an instrument in its own right, then youre only half a guitarist IMO.

Modellers will get there one day, and when they do, i'll be the first to jump on the bandwagon. But they've got a long way to go before they feel or sound even close.

And considering that all modellers do is try to get as close to valve amps as they can (with cost/weight/versatility advantages), i don't see why they would ever actually replace them. Where will the new amps come from if they do? Boffins with glasses who cant play guitar, instead of passionate designers with soul like Randall Smith, Paul Cornford, Peter Diezel tinkering around with amps on their workbenches? I doubt it:rolleyes:

Doctor J

I'm looking at this from the perpective of a band environment, a live environment, a studio environment as musicians at our collective general level (bedroom to small level gigs and sporadic studio excursions, unless someone wants to correct me there). Then it does matter what's micing it. It matters a hell of a lot. As the OP says, getting his amp into a live environment and hearing guitar tone from the punter's point of view made him re-evaluate his thoughts on the matter. Why? A guitar amp played solo in a bedroom sounds substantially different to a guitar amp in a live environment. How different amp sounds interact with other instruments, with live drums, with how an engineer mics an amp if it's going through a PA and what he mic's it with all has a huge impact on the tone. The microphone, don't forget, is also an instrument in its own way, they have their own tones and mic placement makes incredible influence of the sound of the guitar and amplifier before it gets to, as was mentioned before, the influence whatever desk and preamp it gets plugged into. There's no point, in my opinion, getting precious about it when there are so many variables outside of the circuitry and price tag of the amplifier which aren't under the control of the player. What comes out of the speaker doesn't necessarily translate to what everyone but the guitarist will hear. A good engineer can make a Valvestate sound better in a band setting than an average engineer with a Dual Rec. The subtle nuances of valve technology are easily lost in the very unsubtle live environment and, from my point of view, you go with what works. That is where I think modelling will make big strides over traditional amps, a guitarist will have greater control over his live sound using a pod than he will using a valve amp (ie for a start being told to turn it down by the engineer because it's too ****ing loud and losing the amp saturation, then micing yada yada yada etc) and those are the gigs where you get to use your own amp anyway.

And we're also overlooking the degrading influence of non Steve Vai signature cables and solder

Edit > No one is disputing that valve amps can be lovely in the right situation, however my take on the original post is that in certain situations there are other technologies which can perform better and I think people will come around to realising that and adapt accordingly.

Voodu Child

You see, im not arguing from the point of view of a sound engineer, or a drunken punter out front. Music is a labour of love, and im speaking as a guitarist.

Sure, you could use the best mics available, and the best sound engineer, and the best PA, and get an AVT sounding what you think is pristine, amazing, perfect... whatever.

If the amp isnt doing THAT thing, that valve amps do, i couldnt give a sh1t. Thats the point im trying to make about an amp being an instrument. It has a 'feel', a way of reacting and squashing and breaking up and compressing that is as much a part of the way i play as the way i pick the strings or press my fingers on the fretboard.

Modellers don't do that yet. When they do, i'll move to the other side of the argument. But for now, they don't cut it (in my book).

That is all:D

feylya

The thread is about the sound at the front of house though.

SirLemonhead

Doctor J wrote:

I know Megadeth were using Line6 modelling at their gig in the Ambassador last year (yes, despite the obligatory wall of Marshalls on stage )

How do you know that?

Voodu Child

feylya wrote:

The thread is about the sound at the front of house though.

Well it started as one thing, moved to another, and is in a kind of 'valve vs solid state' no-mans land at the moment.

Some lads are bashing valve amps so i may as well chip in and say im on the other side of the fence and why, just to have my vote counted if for nothing else.
Nobody is right/wrong, its just the usual debate.

Doctor J

MasterOfSolos wrote:

How do you know that?

You could hear it. He's working on something with Line6 at the moment too

http://www.megadeth.com/whois/gear/dave.html

http://line6.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=020510

-=al=-

o0o0

feylya

al, you have already gotten a warning about useless posts.

-=al=-

sry, but it was for the lin6 and dave mustain thing, i didnt see that comin not at all i was thinkin about micing my podxt thru an old 10watt speaker here, it actually sounds very suprisingly good

but using a podxt in a live situation... only if i have to

SirLemonhead

Doctor J wrote:

You could hear it. He's working on something with Line6 at the moment too

http://www.megadeth.com/whois/gear/dave.html

http://line6.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=020510

I knew he was using Line 6 stuff now, but not 2 years ago at the Ambassador gig..

You could hear it?

Doctor J

Yeah... I said it to Fey or Ancient1 or whoever it was with me walking down O'Connell Street afterwards. On all the modelling amp distortion there's a kind of slight fizz to the high end you just don't get with a tube amp. I was wearing ear plugs so I wasn't getting my ears blown off and kind of picked it up after a while. Lucky guess, tbh, I only found those links when you queried me on it

The reason I think the whole modelling thing will take off in a live environment is because you've got your tone shaping (distortions, effects), speaker emulation and even feckin virtual mic placement in one box, just send your tone to the PA for loudening. Perfect. It means you can have clearer monitor mixes on stage and the engineer has a waaaaaaaay better chance of sending something audible to the punters out front. Once people get over only bringing a poxy little pedalboard or whatever to a gig, it really makes absolute sense to me. Having said that, I don't have one, the pioneers are the ones who got scalped, but having been working in a studio for the last few months and having a pod to play with, it's definitely on the list for when the Ampeg finally blows up.

Voodu Child

I probably got off track alright. Like i said, don't get me wrong, ive a couple of modellers at the moment and they're grand for what i use em for. And i can see modelling technology getting better over the next few generations.

But as handy as they might be in a live situation, look at multi-effects pedals.
(again, ive got a few so, im not biased or 'snobby'). Boss have been at it for ten years now, me-30 GT5, GT6, GT8 (GT10 next year?). And as handy as they are, lads are still using Morley wahs, maxon overdrives, modded DS-1s, you name it. They cost more overall, eat batteries, are one less thing to go wrong, need a bunch of patch cables etc., but lads are still using 'em, and still spending plenty of money on them.

Boss have been trying 10 years, but the stompbox models on the GT8 still stink, i wouldnt dream of using one with a good amp. And if you get all hooked up to the PA and your patches dont sound half as good as the last venue, youre bent over scrolling through menus, twiddling a million different settings, its just a pain in the ass compared to reaching down to your tubescreamer and turning one or two knobs.

So.... i dunno. Theres advantages and disadvantages to everything. I DO like the idea of one box does it all, but i just don't reckon it'll be anytime soon before lads start ditching their valve amps.

And don't forget, manufacturers are always going to find ways of taking your money. So if all everybody played was modellers, you'd still have one for E300 and a 'deluxe' version that sounds better for E1000 or whatever. So you'll still have to decide whether you want to leave the 'boutique' one at home and take the cheapie one to the gig..

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

Sensible people will tire of lugging great big amps into venues when they see the clear disadvantage over using modelling, both in terms of tone and sheer pysical effort.

Surely that's more a case of the speaker cabinet being the great big huge thing? A head ain't all that heavy, nor is it really in any way big.

Of course, if it's a situation of convenience, a situation where venues have their own speaker cabinets could be just as feasable where the guitarist(s) just bring their heads as easily as bringing modelling units.

With reguards to occaisional maintinence of tube amps, I'm sure you might change the strings on your guitar and set it up the odd time? Compared to changing a few tubes once in a blue moon, there's a lot more work involved in the guitar.

Doctor J

If you've ever tried lugging a cab or the weight of a tube head from the car and up the poxy stairs in JJ's you'll appreciate what I'm getting at

If you could carry your guitar and rig on your back, on the bus, walk across town with a minimum of fuss, you're saying you wouldn't?

Edit -> Having done fairly regular gigs, 3 or 4 a month, for a while with the blues lads a while back and having gone through the absolute ****e of trying to lug a rig in and out of venues through crowded streets surrounded by pissheads at 3 in the morning, if I could have gotten away with a pod or something like that, I'd have done it in a second... and I have the compact Ashdown stuff too. Your plan about cabs means you're suggesting venues cater only for guitarists. What use is a guitar cab to a saxophone player? If a venue's got a good PA, and thankfully some are getting better, then the guys who are gigging on a regular basis will switch, I am sure of it, just for the sake of convenience alone and being able to slip out of a venue with their instrument on their back and their rig in a bag and not have to push their way through crowds of drunken twats with a 30kg head in one hand and a guitar in the other. When you're in that situation, your inclination to find an alternative grows surprisingly strong

Paladin

People who believe they are getting 'that great valve tone' when their amp is not turned up to the max are quite bluntly fooling themselves.

This makes valves impractical for the average band because 1 of either 2 situations exist:

1) You are not overdriving your valve amp therefore you paid €2000+ for what a €300 amp could do.
or
2)You have your amp overdriving which has one of two side-effects:
i - You have the amp too loud for a small/medium venue
ii - You have you amp distorting beautifully when set up and mic'ed well, but you are relying on a decent engineer/PA to get that sound to audience (very plausible if you are in the type of band that plays big gigs).

Since most people fall into categories 1) and 2)i and not 2)ii then cheaper options (of which are are many combination) make more sense *without* degrading sound quality.

I simply recommend anyone in two minds take a good clean valve head, and a good clean SS head (not a goddamn behringer now, use something decent like a Laney), put them through the same speaker, use the same pre-effects and see if you think its worth the hundreds/thousands of extra €€€'s.

Maybe you will prefer one or the other, but my bet is a majority of people who have not done this will be surprised at the similarity.

fish-head

At the end of the day... if it sounds good it sounds good, eh?

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

If you could carry your guitar and rig on your back, on the bus, walk across town with a minimum of fuss, you're saying you wouldn't?

Never said that. I would actually like to use my trusty Pod XT Live live, if even just to see how it sounds live, because it's a fantastic piece of kit and I love it. Nearly as much as I love my ENGL stack.

The ironic thing is that Line6 still make their modelling products in head & cab form, probably just as heavy as any tube head, and these fellas get used a lot. Doesn't this kinda defeat the purpose of the convenience aspect of modelling?

Doctor J

It sure does, but I'm not suggesting plugging the pod or xt or whatever into a cab, what's the point? I'm saying plug it directly into the PA. No cabs. No heads. Pod or xt for tone shaping, PA for controlled loudening meaning the people who pay to hear your band have a better chance of hearing what you're doing

Edit > the thing is, a musician playing an electric instrument will always need an independant form of amplification, there are some gigs you'll have a PA that'll barely do the vocals alone, different rehearsal situations, studio, whatever. Bands rarely have the foresight to invest in their own PA, apart from the likes of wedding bands who, sadly, are the ones to learn from when it comes to putting on gigs with good sound and a minimum of bull****, but we stray from the topic. When you can be assured of the quality of the PA (some venues at the moment are up to spec), why caouse yourself unnecessary grief for the sake of a few sonic nuances that the punters won't care about, that you probably won't hear too with the deafening racket onstage cos the valve amps have to be cranked up to get them in the first place?

feylya

Given the hassle of setting up multiple pedals, cables breaking, amps not sounding perfect, it seems nicer just using a GT-8 or simliar. TBH, I've just been using a GT-8 through headphones for the last while and it sounds great. That said, I still love using a tube amp on occasion.

Doctor J

And I love my Ampeg, but I know I'll rarely get the chance to use it live for a long time, so I need a Plan B... and we're back to square 1 again

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

It sure does, but I'm not suggesting plugging the pod or xt or whatever into a cab, what's the point? I'm saying plug it directly into the PA. No cabs. No heads. Pod or xt for tone shaping, PA for controlled loudening meaning the people who pay to hear your band have a better chance of hearing what you're doing

Never said you were suggesting plugging the pod into an amp & cab. I know well what you're saying. Pod > Mixing desk, nothing else in the way of amplification.

I mention the head and cab in way of irony as modelling comes in that setup anyway.

NeMiSiS

I was thinking of doing exactly that as in get a Pod and plug it into the desk at gigs, but you can't trust the venue to have a decent rig, unless you have played there before, and the rig is there all the time. You need to know the limitations of the rig in the venue where you are playing, or bring your own rig.. which is an absoloute nightmare.. unless you own a Transit, or rent a rig that gets delivered, but that's a cost, and most places won't even cover expenses.. but that's another story.

Didn't think the thread would develop so furiously..

Two Pod XT Lives + http://blog.forret.com/2004/06/cool-speakers-bose-personalized-amplification-system/ , would be an interesting setup for my band.. personally..

But sure what does it matter the wight of your cabs and amps, when you still have to help the drummer in with a million stands

TK

Voodu Child

Paladin wrote:

People who believe they are getting 'that great valve tone' when their amp is not turned up to the max are quite bluntly fooling themselves.

Why you'd suggest someone was 'fooling' themselves is beyond me... Are most guitarists idiots and youre much smarter? Doesnt make much sense..

Guys tend to move on to valve amps after donkeys years of playing SS amps, and amps of all description. If their years of experience tell them they prefer one thing over another, how can you say they are 'fooling themselves' without looking a bit presumptuous?

-=al=-

pods are handy but they just cant get that nice tubey sound, there not bad and 70% of people probably wont notice, but its what you like to hear at the end of the day,

but its a bit more easy and practical to show up at a show with a podxt and a guitar insteads of loadsa ****e

NeMiSiS

Would any of this point towards an idea for a company doing decently priced deliveries and rentals of high end amps, at reasonable prices ?
I think the main problem is the hassle of getting the **** there, we have done a good few gigs recently where we supplied the entirity of the backline, and got jack **** in return financially. That's not to say there were not rewards, as in expanding our fan base, and at future gigs flogging cd's and merchandise to make up our costs. One example was playing in a battle of the bands which we payed to participate, supplied the backline amps and drums, then some jackass pulled the fire alarm, and the whole gig was cancelled.. more the gob****es us for not requesting a refund.. am I getting off topic ?

The original posters point was, he had invested a considerable amount in 'high-end' equipment, where as the guitarist he saw had went for.. 'middle of the road', and had what he percieved a better sound. I think it is all about perception, and what you are trying to achieve in your own head with you sound. If you have an ideal of a certain sound, you could spend thousands on amps, but not get the right one to suit you, or you can spend under a thousand euro on modellling equipment, and achieve the sound you want. That's down to the individual really.

I really like the idea of modellers, but the extent of my knowledge on them would mainly be POD products and the GT stuff Boss does, which I dug, but to my ears it still sounds artificial, I think someone brought up the point that Valve amps nearly "breathe", I'd agree with that, there is something that feels "Live" driving a valve amp nice and loud. I would imagine though if I spent enough time with a POD I could get some sounds I really liked, and have done here at home, but not live.. not yet... but I'd still bring the Valve for big gigs, I've come to know and love it, it's part of me the same way my guitar is at this stage

It pretty much comes down to a question of tatse for the individual player, I would imagine the OP was in the audience listening to the guitar player with the AVT going "wow what a great sound" while another guitar played in the audience was going "sweet mericiful jesus, it sounds like he's ramming a shovel up a donkey".

Jaysus, ye'd know I was bored with a post that length.
TK

Paladin

voodoo_child wrote:

Why you'd suggest someone was 'fooling' themselves is beyond me... Are most guitarists idiots and youre much smarter?

That is *almost exactly* what I am saying. After several year of *PROFFESSIONAL* amplifier *DESIGN* and many more years of playing and listening I can safely say that I have a more educated opinion than most. Not necessarily smarter, but yeah, thay are fooling themselves if they think so, regardless of their opinion.

Im drunk now so Im blunt...
There are many smart (and more talented than me) guitarists that dont have my experience. Id advise anyone to try out what I have said with regard to experimenting with SS and Valve Heads and make your choice. You are welcome to disagree with me, but what I said I stand behind 100%.

Grolschevik

NeMiSiS wrote:

The original posters point was, he had invested a considerable amount in 'high-end' equipment, where as the guitarist he saw had went for.. 'middle of the road', and had what he percieved a better sound. I think it is all about perception, and what you are trying to achieve in your own head with you sound. If you have an ideal of a certain sound, you could spend thousands on amps, but not get the right one to suit you, or you can spend under a thousand euro on modellling equipment, and achieve the sound you want. That's down to the individual really.
TK

Absolutely, that's what I was getting at. Though I'd still go for my gear over his in the studio. But a gig isn't permanent: it's a transitory experience, however good your memory is. If the guitar sound sounds ok, that'll do. For god's sake, in many instances you'll never get a clear view of the amp used anyway, and even if the guitarist is standing in front of a Mesa, doesn't mean s/he's not using a Pignose with a good mike off to one side (and, yes, you can make a Mesa sound like a Pignose, though not vice versa).

Anyway, I'm caught in a GAS dilemma. I already have three perfectly acceptable valve amps. A vintage Laney, a Marshall JTM45 reissue, and a Laney VC15. Which take up a fair amount of space...
But I also want a snobby amp, for all the usual snobby reasons ("it'll be the last amp I ever buy, honest love!"; and "if I've got a guitar worth this much, surely I should have an amp worth that much").

So:sell the aforementioned heads and cabs and get a snob amp (currently favouring the idea of a Rivera) and pick up a Valvestate for the gigs?

Also considering using the 15w Laney as my backline, driving it hard. Mic'ed up, there should be few problems, apart from lack of headroom and its 10" speaker. Anyone else use a valve 15w for their sound at mic'ed gigs?

Voodu Child

Paladin wrote:

That is *almost exactly* what I am saying. After several year of *PROFFESSIONAL* amplifier *DESIGN* and many more years of playing and listening I can safely say that I have a more educated opinion than most. Not necessarily smarter, but yeah, thay are fooling themselves if they think so, regardless of their opinion.

You can work for all the guitar amplifier manufacturers in Cork that you like but its still daft to say that your average pro or semi-pro level guitarist is buying a valve-amp without understanding what conditions they sound best under. What - theyre walking into a shop with a big wad of cash and saying 'give me the shiny one there in the corner'...:rolleyes:

Its like saying someone buying a fender strat is 'fooling themselves' if they dont realise that singlecoils sound different to humbuckers. I mean, what? do you really think people are stupid? Its a pointless statement to make, it just doesnt make any sense..

Doctor J

Not really. Refer to the previous posts about Les Paul owners who don't understand how to setup a guitar, it's not exactly a remote possiblity

Voodu Child

Edit - I reckon i'm well off topic anyhow, so i'll leave it here, before Fey starts throwin out the bannings

-=al=-

i was playing through my tsl earlier for the first time in ages, it sounded freaking great, cant bea a good live tube amp :cool:

was fixin my pedalboard up so wasnt using it for a while but its pretty darn cool

Grolschevik

voodoo_child wrote:

You can work for all the guitar amplifier manufacturers in Cork that you like

What's that you say? Who, where and how?