Article on What Krav Maga is, and Israeli MA

Millionaire

Here below link, is an interesting article explaing what Krav Maga is, and is not....
Just for the record I am not affilated with Commando Krav Maga, I was with Israeli KM Association, (no longer with them either) and now I am with
www.tacticalkravmaga.com.au

which out of the 5 or 6 "styles" of KM, is the most simple, most effective, and probably the only one that is pressure tested full contact. (thats means about 70% of KM techniques you see have been dumped....its light on technique, and massive on aggression!)



http://www.commandokravmaga.co.uk/kravmaga-history.html

anyway, anyone interested in KM etc, might enjoy reading this.

too bad KM got off to a bad start in ireland due to money grabbing, "be bruce lee in 24 hours with no real effort" unethical people teaching it.

Khannie

Interesting article.

Gerry, could you differentiate KM and combatives? Sounds to me like both are aiming for the same goal. (edit: I think you posted an article on the differences before, but a one liner would help someone who has practiced neither )

Millionaire

Well Combatives in the true sense is based on the simple and effective fighting methods World War II Commandos (and other WWII agencies such as SOE, and guys and gals in undercover Nazi Occupied countires), were taught.

Just simple techniques like Palm shots (chin jabs some call them), knees to balls, elbows, eye attackes, and judo strangles and take downs. plus offensive Knife and Pistol work.

Of course many great Self Defence people with real experience has added to this. be it either Door Work people, Army people, cops etc...

The KM I am doing is as per what the YAMAM learn, who are basically an under cover SWAT team, that do shady stuff like dress as arabs, and go in under cover and arrest or get rid of terroists and criminals. I have no sides in their politics...I want to make that perfectly clear. However these guys have to go hands on, and the stuff I am doing now, is very simple.... bursts of punches, and strikes, dirty shots, low kicks, take downs, sleeper chokes.and very simple weapon disarms.
Tactial KM founder who was in Yamam and until recent trainer in unarmed stuff, is big into Muay Thai, MMA, and Jujitsu. however all that is stripped down, to the most effective, some dirt is added, and you got a system people with the right aggressive hard mindset can learn and use quick. alot of this street stuff is mindset anyway. and I think the Yaman only take something like 20 out of 400 applicants...so thats 20 near psycos that pass selection yearly...so with that mind set...those guys can make anything work. I heard some very interesting stories of operations....gruesome!

anyway now the American KM crew have commercialized KM into sort of a happy clappy kickboxing with some self defence. which is great for making money in the USA.... Mcdojo etc etc....

and then there is alot of KM people who can do great techniques technicaly brilliant on a static partner...and if you whack them with a muay thai kick in shins...they go whinging to instructor...this happened me in israel.

As I said before I lost alot of faith in KM over that and some other stuff...but since I went Tactiacl KM, my faith is restored.

Basically if you question a technique, or thinking something will work...the answer is the same...lets put on some protective gear and we will test it all out. I was near but out in less than 3 secs the other day thinking I could use an old style KM escape from a sleeper choke. Tactial Km takes view....if someone who knowa their stuff got a sleeper on you there is a very strong chance your F**Ked in secs.. no matter what you think you know, and NHB matches prove this.

this is some of the other training we do to back up the street stuff in Tactical KM, Itay is the founder. big into MMA too etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbSxL3-S_1w

kravist

Gerry..the guy asked for a 1 liner!!!
Whatever start Krav Maga got in Ireland, i'd like to think that anyone under the IKMF (Internatinal Krav Maga Federation) is of a certain standard.It's Head is Eayl Yanilow...check him out on youtube, plenty of clips there..who for the record was a close personal friend and protegie of Imi Sde Or, essentially the founder of Krav Maga.
Instructor licences/qualifications if not renewed annually are lost. This can only be done by attending specific instructor training (only available in the UK) and is carried out by members on the Global Team. One member of that team is Amnon Darsa, who last November gave a seminar in Dublin. Interviewed in Martial Arts Illustrated Feb '07 and when asked did he cross train his response was "Of Course. I train in Thai boxing to improve my stand up skills and i also train in BJJ because i like it."
To me that shows integrity and honesty and in no way makes false claims. Krav Maga is as it suggests, a self defence system based on the bodies natural reactions. It is easy to learn along with being fast and effective. Lets face it, there's no such thing as magic!
American KM is generally not part of the IKMF, apart from a couple of clubs in places like San Diego and LA. There are also a few IKMF clubs in Canada, eg.Montreal.
Very few people who post here have actually trained with the IKMF, ofrinstructors who are still part of the organisation.

Millionaire

kravist wrote:

Gerry..the guy asked for a 1 liner!!!
.

I m practicinng Eamon for writing books! LOL! As an educator yourself you should encourage my prose and add in pointers for me ....or just tell me to stick at the day job! LOL!!!

Yes of course, I am not doubting IKMF... I trained with some of their Poland guys in Israel, and they were hardcore..I mean really hardcore. (they deflected over to IKMA.... something to do with row/ego with head IKMF guy in Poland, nothing to do with techniques).

The Tactical KM instructor from Australia who I have spent last 3 weeks with was Eyals rep in Australia for years...he just felt he wanted to go a different route. and does not have a bad word to say about Eyal. he found and hooked up with Itay Gil who made Tactical KM, and preferred his methods, and more simple version.
and of course on out own emails we exchanged, there is a long progrssive line of study in IKMF, which leads to high skills ala the poilish crew I trained with.

When I saw the "americans" I mean Darren Levine and crew, Krag Maga of America Assoc, now they have watered the thing down, and are churing out instructors galore. who then pay them 400 dollars a month franchise fee to use their name, techniques and marketing kit. Thats the American Way I guess!

Also Avi Nardia of Kapap...same thing....use Kapap for the basic self defence, but does alot of Muay Thai to improve hardcore striking and BJJ for the fun sport end of it.

And me too, I will still be, for my own personal training be at Muay Thai 5 or 6 days a week, and the 2 - 3 sessions of grappling. It translates very well into KM. while the ring, we want to either KO or win on points over the distance....in the street we want to finish it in seconds, and exit the scene. punches do the same job...its how you employ the punches/strikes that make the difference.

If you ever saw the DVD Atnomy of a Street Fight by Paul Vunal, he does some live full contact fights actually inn bars and around pool tables. and his striaght blast/RATT system ideals he uses is 90% similar to what Tactical KM would advocate.

Millionaire

kravist wrote:

Eayl Yanilow...who for the record was a close personal friend and protegie of Imi Sde Or, essentially the founder of Krav Maga.
.

P.S. They were all close personal friends of Imi.... Netanya and surrounding towns is about the size of Westport, and the KM came from a very small bunch of people.

Now there is how silly it gets.... they are all fighting over "who was the best friend of Imi" before he died... and who is the "true' sucessor. IKMF vs IKMA Vs KM Assoc of America.

As you know I could not care less..I only care about high standards and functional training which includes contact against someone trying to take your head off.

As I said before. you have sparring in the sense of boxing, muay thai etc...where you move around, bobbing, weaving, throwing combos, trying to out wit oppoent to KO him. that great.

But to put your stuff to the real test... try the "Milling" type fighting drill as used famously by Brit Para Regiment. 1 min full out full contact 2 people attacking with strikes, no let up. now thats getting as close to the real thing without going barekunkle, and also the energy need is exact same as you will use in a street fight. plus its a great teachnique for getting over fear, adreline dump, and getting some balls. In fact I got some scheduled for this weekend.... I ll probably be bricking it with fear in the mins before we start, but I do not give a damn, I am going to give as hard and as fast as I can. (and win! hee hee! )

google for it...there is good reference to the drill on the net. just make sure you got a good heavy duty gum guard! some wear head gear... I am not fussed either way.

You may not want to do this drill all the time, as you will get hard bangs up every now and then for realism and to develop HEART!

Hey Gerry,

Hope this doesn't offend but as an obviously proud Irishman with probably unkind views on imperialism and occupation do you not have serious ethical issues learning KM from the Israeli army or ex Israeli operatives some of whom must undoubtedly have committed some atrocities to the Palestinian people?

Cheers,

Colum

Baggio...

Hi Colm,

Hope you don't mind me cutting in here.

Just on the ethical side of training and I can see your point. But for me anyway it's all about the training (and getting the best). One of the most influential figures in Close Quarters Combat is a convicted murderer. When I found this out I was very disappointed, as I have no wish to be associated with people like that. I have also heard that this person was also involved in other dubious deeds during in his career (which I can't verify to be fair). But yet his training methods and ideology are some of the best in the world for Combatives and Self-protection. I in no way admire this mans past deeds, but I do admire his understanding of Combatives. So does it stop me training in his methods? - no at all.

I would see KM in a similar situation. You may not agree with the Israeli political agenda - but if you like the training and think it could save your life that to me is a totally separate issue. Again you can just step away from the whole politics side.

Might be one for Gerry to answer - but as far as I know most of the KM guys don't really get involved with the political agenda. Well, that is to say I've never heard anything to the contrary.

I also think that there are a lot of nasty characters, not style specific, out there who train other people to fight. Some of these instructors with little or no moral values. You just take what you need, it does not mean that you have to be like them.

Just my two cents.

Cheers,

R.

Hey Rob,

Good response and thanks for replying. I can imagine the outcry if people started selling Close combat methods of the SS or Rwanda machete fighting DVDs. I would feel uncomfortable training with prospective war criminals. Same as buying produce, clothes etc.

Also I was commenting on the apparent duality of Gerry being a strong republican (and therefore loathing opposition and invasion and the systematic rape of a country) and yet training with Israeli army types. Kinda like learning "Para fighting methods as used in Northern Ireland".

All the best,

Colum

Baggio...

Hey Colm,

Actually that's a very good point... I remember seeing a documentary many years ago which involved a group of Neo Nazi skin heads training in some form of crappy close combat - but lets say for the sake of argument that they were teaching "the best" system in the world. I still wouldn't go any where near the scumbags:mad: .

So I can see the point you are making, and if I felt very strongly about an issue I would not get involved with them no matter how good they were.

So good post; as there are definitely some exceptions to the rule...

Good talkin' to ya',

R.

Odysseus

Baggio... wrote:

Just on the ethical side of training and I can see your point. But for me anyway it's all about the training (and getting the best). One of the most influential figures in Close Quarters Combat is a convicted murderer. When I found this out I was very disappointed, as I have no wish to be associated with people like that. I have also heard that this person was also involved in other dubious deeds during in his career (which I can't verify to be fair). But yet his training methods and ideology are some of the best in the world for Combatives and Self-protection. I in no way admire this mans past deeds, but I do admire his understanding of Combatives. So does it stop me training in his methods? - no at all.

I think that's a very valid point Rob, but just to make the distinction between past and present. In my own work I work with people who have commited very serious crimes on a daily basis, would I associate myself with people like that no way. However, we must remember that some people do manage to turn their lives around, and those who manage that I would have no problems associating with. So for me it would be the same with training, if people were still involved in unethical activies I would stay clear, but I try not judge people on their past, if they have really changed.

Baggio...

Hey Ody,

Good talking to you again, hope things are well?:)

Yep, very good point too; your dead right. And fair play to anyone who has turned their lives around.

Yourself and Colm have definitely got me thinking - which is great. I guess sometimes I look at stuff, in a very "white and black manner at times" - which is no the best, but I try to always have an open mind when I can.:o

So ta' to both of you for your insights.

Cheers,

B.

DaveN

Hi,

I wondered is KM taught in Ireland and if so is it of a poor quality because this is what I am inferring (perhaps incorrectly from this thread)?

Regards
Dave

Baggio...

Hey,

I don't do Km myself, but I believe there are one or two good instructors over here. I believe Aiden Carroll is very good.


PS - has anyone been on Avi's KAPAP course over in the UK? And if so what was it like?

Cheers,


B.

kravist

Hey Dave
Krav Maga is taught to a very high standard here in Ireland!!!!..lol
Come to Castlebar any time for a free class and i'll prove this to you!
Henry B who sometimes posts here is one of my students. PM him for an honest opinion!
Aidan Carroll is an excellent instructor wwwkravmaga.ie
And, and i know Gerrry (Millionaire) will love this, there are other instructors very capable of getting a lot out of you. Interprit it as you will... lmao
Have to say..a particular instructor often criticised here on boards was responsible for fostering my personal interest/love of KM.!

Millionaire

columok wrote:

Hey Gerry,

Hope this doesn't offend but as an obviously proud Irishman with probably unkind views on imperialism and occupation do you not have serious ethical issues learning KM from the Israeli army or ex Israeli operatives some of whom must undoubtedly have committed some atrocities to the Palestinian people?

Cheers,

Colum

No not offended....good question!

No I got no ethical issues. I do not support Israeli politics...but if you are pro israeli or not....them lads sure know now to fight...their army is lethal. they are not into fancy spit and polish stuff like some armys...most of them uniformed looks sloppy....but they concentrate on the functional.

so as Bruce Lee said..."Absorb what is useful and disgard the rest"

While I chose to remember those who gave their lives for freedom. (Hunger Strikers etc)....there is peace now 10 years, and I have no political affilations with anyone in ireland. (sinners policy on taxation is too high, and also the anti EU thing turns me off....bad for business)

In fact yesterday, I had coffee with an ex British Army lad, who served jst up the road from where I am from. so there!

However when it comes down to it...sure Israel does have questionable issues re Palistinian people etc....but remember this...Israel does not hijack jet planes and fly them into world trade centre.

and alot of israelis are a fairly liberal bunch the secular ones (I ve seen some eating bacon sandwiches), though they can be a bit arrogant sometimes!

SO yeah...I take from KM what will make me an more effective fighter...thats about it.

And I also am in contact with ex SAS dudes too who are in self protection sector... (now that would go down like a lead ballon where i come from a few years back!)

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

However when it comes down to it...sure Israel does have questionable issues re Palistinian people etc....but remember this...Israel does not hijack jet planes and fly them into world trade centre.

Neither did the Palestinians. The vast majority of the hijackers were Saudis. What the Israelis do is fire rockets at ambulances, hospitals and other civilian targets in the name of "targetted killings" in violation of the Geneva convention.

Sorry, don't want to get into a political debate but had to point out that misconception.

Millionaire

Roper wrote:

Sorry, don't want to get into a political debate .

Thats a good idea...lets keep it training focused!

As I said, their Self Protection is good, regardless of politics, and I am happy to learn it and leave it at that.

Barry

Barry wrote:

Neither did the Palestinians. The vast majority of the hijackers were Saudis. What the Israelis do is fire rockets at ambulances, hospitals and other civilian targets in the name of "targetted killings" in violation of the Geneva convention.

Not to mention the Sabra and Shamila massacre and the fact that Palestine is to all extents and purposes a concentration camp at the moment.

millionaire wrote:

No I got no ethical issues. I do not support Israeli politics...but if you are pro israeli or not....them lads sure know now to fight...their army is lethal. they are not into fancy spit and polish stuff like some armys...most of them uniformed looks sloppy....but they concentrate on the functional.

I dunno Gerry. Many of the militia groups in Rwanda were very efficient at what they did- doesn't mean I'd want to learn machete fighting from them. The SS were quiet lethal and again it doesn't mean I'd be interested in learning their killing techniques.

At the end of the day the Israeli army has developed Krav Maga as a self defence method that has no doubt been applied to the many acts of genocide committed in their incursions into Palestine and elsewhere. That seems quite inescapable. I accept that there are no doubt Israeli servicemen (and women) that have retired because of some of the acts they have been asked to perpetrate. Profiteering from something that has been endlessly applied in warcrime after warcrime just seems a bit off especially with our history.

spiral

Probably best off not doing anything Japanese then as you wouldnt want to be tainted by the fact that some highranking kareteka and Judoka could have been involved in war crimes 60 years ago

Or TKD as that might be supporting Kim in N.Korea :rolleyes:


Keep the politics and training seperate

Roper

Whenever I hear of this I think of doctors. Hypothermia is treated by emersing the patient in progressively warmer water, a treatment discovered by Nazi scientists cruelly experimenting on humans. Doctors did wrangle with this but use the method still.

crokester

The onle thing id say is that we live in a world of violence, exploitation, and oppression and that it is in general impossible to boycott it. You can boycott the worst of it, ie South African apartheid, but that maybe to ignore its lesser manifestations. So if you boycott Isreali goods, colleges, training systems why stop there? We in Ireland give support to the pillage of Iraq by allowing war planes land in Shannon.

Marxist rant over!