2 AA Hands - Pot Control or just too Passive?

Ste05

Hand 1:
The Villain in this Pot was calling more of my raises than he could have cards for, but not one of my Re-Raises until now. He seemed competent and I didn't know much about him other than he seemed aggressive. I'd been playing TAG, about 24/17/3 or so

If possible, try and analyse this hand ignoring the size of the Pre-Flop Re-raise, I'm just getting used to the iPoker software and the slider was going up in increments I'm not used to and then I was rushed when the timer was getting to the autofold time.... so I just banged in 17 and pressed raise. I probably would have preferred to make it 19 - 21, but how and ever, I didn't expect anyone to flat call bar the original raiser.

Seat 1: Donfish ($153.85 in chips)
Seat 3: AllahMohammed ($200.40 in chips)
Seat 5: matiouz_ ($226.55 in chips)
Seat 6: Ste05 ($198.65 in chips)
Seat 8: Keyser25 ($144.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: Villain ($437.69 in chips)
Villain: Post SB $1.00
Donfish: Post BB $2.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Villain
Dealt to Ste05 [Ac As]
AllahMohammed: Fold
matiouz_: Raise $7.00
Ste05: Raise $17.00
Keyser25: Fold
Villain: Call $16.00
Donfish: Fold
matiouz_: Call $10.00
*** FLOP *** [Jc 6d 8d]
Villain: Bet $20.00
matiouz_: Fold
Ste05: Call $20.00
*** TURN *** [2d]
Villain: Bet $50.00
Ste05: Call $50.00
*** RIVER *** [8c] Pot: $193, I have $111 left.
Villain: Allin $350.69
Ste05??

I have some thoughts on a few mistakes I made here, but I'll save them til I get a few responses.

Hand 2:

I didn't know much about the Villain in this hand, he had been playing quite TAG, about 20/10/3, but nothing great, the Short stack in the hand was irrelevant really other than he lead at the turn, I called the turn expecting the Villain to fold and the Shorty to push the River, which I was calling unless another H fell.

Seat 1: Villain ($181.40 in chips)
Seat 3: Anthony222 ($37.00 in chips)
Seat 5: superreverb ($54.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Chiantz ($141.20 in chips)
Seat 8: MyNamesinUse ($185.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Ste05 ($255.10 in chips) DEALER
Villain: Post SB $1.00
Anthony222: Post BB $2.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ste05 [Ad Ac]
superreverb: Fold
Chiantz: Fold
MyNamesinUse: Fold
Ste05: Raise $6.00 (my standard Button raise to steal the blinds is 6-8, this time it just happened to be 6, because of the short stack in the BB)
Villain: Call $5.00
Anthony222: Call $4.00
*** FLOP *** [2h Kh 9h]
Villain: Check
Anthony222: Check
Ste05: Check (I didn't want to be C/R'd, I'd been C. betting alot)
*** TURN *** [5s]
Villain: Check
Anthony222: Bet $12.00
Ste05: Call $12.00 (Explained above)
Villain: Raise $24.00
Anthony222: Fold
Ste05: Call $12.00
*** RIVER *** [Jc]
Villain: Bet $56.00
............

valor

In #1 if you dont want comments on pre-flop fine, but I would make it $25 here as standard

I dont mind the flop call, but I'm only calling here to indcate weakness and hope that he continues with a worse hand - not to control the size of the pot
On the turn, I would shove to protect from a diamond and as played, call river


On #2 the flop check is fine sometimes. On the turn, when Villain A checks and the short stack bets, I would raise enough to put the short stack in to protect from any hearts and to squeeze the villain out with any hearts. When he Cmin raise, we have to call but I'm not happy about it

The river is a fold

BigCityBanker

Ste05 wrote:

Seat 3: AllahMohammed ($200.40 in chips)

What do you think of this guy? It aint me but ive played a good few hands with him.

Ste05

BigCityBanker wrote:

What do you think of this guy? It aint me but ive played a good few hands with him.

Only have about 150 hands, he seems like a standard Multi-tabling TAG, open limps too much.

cooker3

Hand 1, I would prefer a raise on the flop, you still get looked up by worse cards. River, hmmmn you have under represented your hand postflop a lot but when people shove like this I usually find they have it so think I would fold.

Hand 2, I am leaning towards a fold.

Shortstack

Hand 1 raise to 24-27 pick one and stick to it for all your re-raises. Anytime a player bets less than half pot on Ipoker I raise a lot, enough to commit all my chips. It is nearly always a drawing hand they have (obv player dependant, some players I may fold/call the flop bet).

Hand 2 - I never raise less than 4 bb's regardless - I'd rather raise just over pot than just below and because the slider goes to 8 first you will always be consistent and get to play bigger pots and you should have a good disguised hand.

Always cbet big hands, adds more value when you have missed. If you get check raised its an easy enough fold.

Calling the turn is bad, if he has any high heart/2 pair even Kx he is calling with a good price, raise and get him out - if he plays back you can dump. I'd guess he has something like QhTx here.

fuzzbox

Hand 1 - call the river as played, I think your line is fine. There is some merit to raising either flop or turn, and you should do that sometimes.

Hand 2 - fold the river as played, and again I think your line is fine. I might even fold the turn minraise as its a very strong play and you have no draws.

ianmc38

I would call number 1. You know yourelf the preflop bet sizing was pretty bad. I'd prefer to make it between 24 and 28.

Number 2 is a pretty standard fold for me. I dont like the PFR sizing again, even more so because there's a shortstack in the blinds. I think you played the flop and the turn well. The only problem with calling the turn minraise is that you're definitely going to faced with a bet on the river when you have one pair that could already be drawing dead.

FWIW I think the flop is a simple check. This is not a board where we want to play a big pot with aces. If we have AA with the Ah, I still like checking sometimes for deception...

Ste05

Well I folded both (he showed in hand 1), I didn't think there was much I could have done in Hand 2, he obviously had me beaten.

In Hand 1, I think my biggest mistake was not raising the flop, I've always considered a donk bet like that to be one of 2 things, (a) a drawing hand; or (b) a weakish hand that doesn't want to call a raise. And usually just raise them up regardless and take down the pot.

But I decided to give him a little rope and just called, then a diamond fell on the turn and he lead again, so I thought I'd just try and get to showdown and called once more. When the board paired and he was still leading I actually couldn't see anything I still beat bar a kamikaze style bluff, and I hadn't seen him do anything out of the ordinary like that yet. He wasn't afraid of the flush, he could easily have had an 8 or a full house. I never put him on 2 pair so I don't think that 8 counterfeited his hand at all. I think the only hand he could have that I beat was something like 79, 910, or the likes.

So I folded, but I think I should have called regardless of results (as I say he showed) as my play looked pretty weak and should have induced a high enough bluff count on the River to make it profitable. I'll post the results later, in case anyone else wants to comment.

The Ace Face

Ste,

Hand 1

I would r/r the flop to 40/50 ish. If his on a f/d or weaker o/p he may call. Maybe I'm conservative but if he is chasing I want to make him pay for it. I wouldn't mind if he had folded to a r/r on flop. Ok profit. If he calls and diamond falls your in a bind I would bet it out again though to repersent flush myself, if that failed I would just give up! Thats my view for what its worth, by the way I'm losing money on PT with AA so please disregard my comment.:D

Hand 2:

I probably bet the flop but a call is fine. his min raise on turn is scary.... I would call both turn and river as he might have TP, a lot of the time we are behind here but I'm calling! He might have tp and a high heart on turn and looking for value by raising it up..I would in his spot .... and then on river he might be betting out to look like a made flush or think his K is good. I see most posters are folding here but I call.

Ray

Ray

ianmc38

I think betting the flop in hand 2 is really awful.

phantom_lord

ianmc38 wrote:

I think betting the flop in hand 2 is really awful.

fully agree.

Shortstack

ianmc38 wrote:

I think betting the flop in hand 2 is really awful.

I completely disagree, I always bet these kind of flops regardless of what I have raised with and most of the time I take it down (somebody else can work out what % I need them to call with worse or fold for it to be profitable but I am sure it is). Getting c/r and folding is not that bad, it can lead to more action when you have raised and bet the flop after hitting.

ianmc38

Ok so you bet the flop.
Is the plan for the rest of the hand to check behind both streets unless you hit a backdoor full house?

Shortstack

ianmc38 wrote:

Ok so you bet the flop.
Is the plan for the rest of the hand to check behind both streets unless you hit a backdoor full house?

Most times it is taken down on the flop. If I am called it is either a made flush (least possible), a high heart or Kx. Most players will c/r a set or 2pair. If I am called I am more likely to be ahead than behind, most hands that beat me c/r other than the nuts.

There is $18 in the pot post flop so a bet of $12 will suffice. I mostly bet 2/3rds pot when cbetting. Most of the time you are betting this flop for value. Not many players at this level have to the balls to reraise without a big draw or 2pr/set. I am certainly not letting them catch up with me for free.

I check behind on turn unless I know that player is calling with a draw from previous exp.

Most times if they bet out on a non draw completing river I call expecting to be ahead most of the time.

If I am called on flop but then villian bets out on turn it is nearly always a fold.

The Ace Face

phantom_lord wrote:

fully agree.

Why is it so bad Mr. Phantom? Unless people have a made flush they will fold, odds on having a made flush on flop 3 handed is what 20s plus? Chance they fold v. high...if your called or r/r get out of there. They might chase with a high heart but Ah is only one who could really.....then they are drawing .....I would always bet here ....I would seeing it being profitable in the long term;)

Ray

Gholimoli

hand 2:
i dont like betting in hand 2.
the more players im up against and the more aggressive and the deeper the stacks i would be more inclined to check here.
i dont particulary like betting here becuase if they fold you almost certainly have the best hand but if they raise you would be in trouble.

Hand 1:
i dont like check calling on multiple streets that often Ste.
i used to do it alot in situations like this when i have an over pair and face a donk bet .
i think you should have folded when the dimond hit on the turn or raise the flop bet .

Gholimoli

The Ace Face wrote:

Why is it so bad Mr. Phantom? Unless people have a made flush they will fold, odds on having a made flush on flop 3 handed is what 20s plus? Chance they fold v. high...if your called or r/r get out of there. They might chase with a high heart but Ah is only one who could really.....then they are drawing .....I would always bet here ....I would seeing it being profitable in the long term;)

Ray

by a bet here you are just protecting your hand for a small pot but you are putting your stack in a very bad spot .
this pot needs to be kept small.

phantom_lord

The Ace Face wrote:

Why is it so bad Mr. Phantom? Unless people have a made flush they will fold, odds on having a made flush on flop 3 handed is what 20s plus? Chance they fold v. high...if your called or r/r get out of there. They might chase with a high heart but Ah is only one who could really.....then they are drawing .....I would always bet here ....I would seeing it being profitable in the long term;)

Ray

It's ok, but I think a check is much better. If they fold to a bet u had them beat anyway so that doesn't really matter.

you're hand is quite weak, and by saying "if your called or r/r get out of there" you imply your bet is pretty much a bluff, not a value bet anyway. I much rather get to a cheap showdown than bloat the pot with this hand on this board.

c/c flop, or checking the flop and betting a non h turn is better.

Ste05

I was never going to play a big pot with my hand and that flop, and basically that was why I didn't bet that flop, I wanted to give someone the chance to bet as opposed to call with a weaker hand. (roughly same value to me, but a wider range for the opponent = better for me) I also thought there was more value and a higher chance the shorty would push at some stage in the hand, if I played it weakly. I still think he would have pushed the River if the other player hadn't min-raised.

I see where Shortstack is coming from with the flop bet, and if the hand was HU I would bet like 95% of the time here, but in a multiway smallish pot, I didn't fancy it, I wasn't too worried about charging single high heart holdings, I was going to wait until the turn to bet and hope they'd come along for the ride then.

@Gholi in Hand 1:

I presume when you say check-calling you meant flat calling, I was in position and obviously never check called.

As for folding on the turn, I don't think I could have for a half pot bet, apart from the flush the board was OKish, this was a re-raised pot and so I discounted the flush slightly on the turn, I wouldn't expect a 3-Barrel bluff too often in those spots and hence why I decided to call again and fold to a River push, but I think I should have folded (thinking a set/flush) or called intending to call a River push. But as you say, I agree that I should have raised the flop.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

I was never going to play a big pot with my hand and that flop, and basically that was why I didn't bet that flop, I wanted to give someone the chance to bet as opposed to call with a weaker hand. (roughly same value to me, but a wider range for the opponent = better for me) I also thought there was more value and a higher chance the shorty would push at some stage in the hand, if I played it weakly. I still think he would have pushed the River if the other player hadn't min-raised.

I see where Shortstack is coming from with the flop bet, and if the hand was HU I would bet like 95% of the time here, but in a multiway smallish pot, I didn't fancy it, I wasn't too worried about charging single high heart holdings, I was going to wait until the turn to bet and hope they'd come along for the ride then.

@Gholi in Hand 1:

I presume when you say check-calling you meant flat calling, I was in position and obviously never check called.

As for folding on the turn, I don't think I could have for a half pot bet, apart from the flush the board was OKish, this was a re-raised pot and so I discounted the flush slightly on the turn, I wouldn't expect a 3-Barrel bluff too often in those spots and hence why I decided to call again and fold to a River push, but I think I should have folded (thinking a set/flush) or called intending to call a River push. But as you say, I agree that I should have raised the flop.

yeah i meant flat calling Ste.
i think he has the flush here too often ,leading on the flop with the draw and then leading when the draw hits.
what did he have anyway?

pok3rplaya

I think this is what we look like if we do get c/r

pokerstove wrote:

Board: Kh 2h 9h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.094% 42.34% 01.75% 20121 832.50 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 55.906% 54.15% 01.75% 25734 832.50 { AA, KcKd, KcKs, KdKs, QcQh, QdQh, 99, 22, AKs, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, KQs, KhJh, KhTh, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh, Jh9h, Th9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, AKo, AcQh, AdQh, AhQc, AhQd, AhQs, AsQh, KQo, KhJc, KhJd, KsJc, KsJd, KsJh, QdJh, QhJd }

fuzzbox

Thats a pretty optimistic checkraising range there pok3playa.
KQs and KQo and AKo and KJo all checkraising there? Also, he cant have KhJc or KhJd as the Kh is on the board.

How about this one?


Board: Kh 9h 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.779% 26.50% 01.27% 10758 517.50 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 72.221% 70.95% 01.27% 28797 517.50 { KK+, QcQh, QdQh, 99, 22, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah8h, Ah7h, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh, Jh9h, Th8h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 7h6h, 6h5h, 5h4h, AhKc, AhKd, AhKs, AhQc, AhQd, AhQs, AhJc, AhJd, AhJs, QcJh, QdJh, QhJc, QhJd, QhJs, QsJh }

pok3rplaya

lol yeah thats more likely.

Its interesting, first time I've seen the figures to justify that line. My instincts always told me that "wohoo all in to protect my hand let us gogogogo" was the best line.

And bet fold is bad because there's just not enough hands that we beat that call our bet right?

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

what did he have anyway?

Believe it or not he had 6c7c :rolleyes: